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merits of Lisp vs Python

How do you compare Python to Lisp? What specific advantages do you
think that one has over the other?

Note I'm not a Python person and I have no axes to grind here. This is
just a question for my general education.

Mark

Dec 8 '06
852 28619
Paul Rubin <http://ph****@NOSPAM.i nvalidwrites:
Huh? Are you saying Lisp systems never release new versions? And you
He's pretty clearly not saying that.
Dec 9 '06 #71
"JS******@gmail .com" <JS******@gmail .comwrites:
Well, okay, Scheme [same thing (to me), although I realize that they
aren't, quite -- and CWCC is one place where they aren't!] But I don't
follow why you can't come very close by appropriate macrification of
closures.
You have to be able to return from the closure, then re-enter it
(possibly from a different place in the calling program) with all the
lexical variables intact. You have to be able to do this from
multiple places inside the closure. You have to be able to re-enter
and re-exit other such closures between the entry and exit of the
first one. This all has to work with closures that are recursive.

Yeah, Lisp macros are Turing-complete and you could basically
implement a coroutine-supporting compiler out of macros and do all of
the above, but the target language wouldn't be Lisp any more.
Dec 9 '06 #72
Yeah, Lisp macros are Turing-complete and you could basically
implement a coroutine-supporting compiler out of macros and do all of
the above, but the target language wouldn't be Lisp any more.
First off, it probably would be Lisp, but this is a mere issue of
semantics. More importantly, even if I grant you that it's not trivial
(which I'm happy to so stipulate) my point was that YOU COULD do this
if YOU wanted, whereas in Python, YOU COULD NOT unless GUIDO wanted.
QED.

Dec 9 '06 #73
aa**@pythoncraf t.com (Aahz) writes:
I would say that your statement about Lisp syntax is wrong. Not that it
is technically inaccurate, but that it completely misses the point, so
much so that it is wrong to say it. One of the key goals of Python is
readability, and while it is indeed easy to learn the rules for Lisp
syntax, observational experience indicates that many people (perhaps even
the vast majority of people) find it difficult to learn to read Lisp
programs.
You see, this is what I meant by "controvers y." As much as I'd like
to ignore this whole discussion, I will eventually read something like
the above and feel compelled to respond, thus ensuring that the thread
continues until eventually everyone gives up and we end up....exactly
where we started. (thanks again, Mark Tarver)

This is a silly claim. What observational experience are you talking
about? Lisp is delightfully readable. In fact, I find it more
readable than any other language. Why do you think that is? Could it
be because I use Lisp on a daily basis? Could that also explain why
Python seems more readable than Lisp to you?
As for your claims about speed, they are also nonsense; I doubt one
would find an order of magnitude increase of speed for production
programs created by a competent Lisp programmer compared to programs
created by a competent Python programmer.
Nonsense? Hardly. Most Lisp implementations compile to native code,
and can take advantage of fifty years of research into making Lisp
compile into efficient code. You are correct, though: the difference
would probably be a little more than an order of magnitude.
Consider this: Lisp has had years of development, it has had millions of
dollars thrown at it by VC firms -- and yet Python is winning over Lisp
programmers. Think about it.
OK, I'm thinking about it. What was supposed to happen?

(BTW, which millions are you talking about? The millions that went
into the AI boom in the 1980's?)
Dec 9 '06 #74
"JS******@gmail .com" <JS******@gmail .comwrites:
First off, it probably would be Lisp, but this is a mere issue of
semantics. More importantly, even if I grant you that it's not trivial
(which I'm happy to so stipulate) my point was that YOU COULD do this
if YOU wanted,
How?
Dec 9 '06 #75
Bill Atkins <at****@rpi.edu writes:
This is a silly claim. What observational experience are you talking
about? Lisp is delightfully readable. In fact, I find it more
readable than any other language. Why do you think that is? Could it
be because I use Lisp on a daily basis? Could that also explain why
Python seems more readable than Lisp to you?
Python is more readable than Lisp because it stays readable even if
you don't use it on a daily basis.
Dec 9 '06 #76
Paul Rubin <http://ph****@NOSPAM.i nvalidwrote:
+---------------
| Bill Atkins <at****@rpi.edu writes:
| This is a silly claim. What observational experience are you talking
| about? Lisp is delightfully readable. In fact, I find it more
| readable than any other language. Why do you think that is? Could it
| be because I use Lisp on a daily basis? Could that also explain why
| Python seems more readable than Lisp to you?
|
| Python is more readable than Lisp because it stays readable even if
| you don't use it on a daily basis.
+---------------

Weird. This is exactly why I use *Lisp* -- because it stays
completely readable even if you don't use it on a daily basis!!!

[That's also why I *don't* use Perl, except when forced to...]
-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock <rp**@rpw3.or g>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607

Dec 9 '06 #77
rp**@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) writes:
Weird. This is exactly why I use *Lisp* -- because it stays
completely readable even if you don't use it on a daily basis!!!
Hmm. I haven't used Lisp in a while and no longer find it so
readable.

Lisp just seems hopelessly old-fashioned to me these days. A
modernized version would be cool, but I think the more serious
Lisp-like language designers have moved on to newer ideas.
Dec 9 '06 #78
alf
Mark Tarver wrote:
How do you compare Python to Lisp?
A little bit OT but I can not resist it. What always impressed me with
Lisp is that LOGO (any one remembers) is Lisp based yet designed to
teach kids programming. I do not know Lisp but used to program a bit in
LOGO - everything was so natural ...

--
alfz1
Dec 9 '06 #79
What are you? A pointy haired boss?

- s

Bjoern Schliessmann wrote:
Alex Mizrahi wrote:
hell no, lisp's syntax is much easier than python's since it's
homogenous

Can you give an example? I cannot imagine how homogenity always
results in easiness.
(and certainly lisp was invented much 30 years before
Python, so that's Python uses Lisp features)

I think you acknowledged that the syntax is different and not
borrowed?

[many parentheses]
that make logic more explicit

Can you give an example?

Regards,
Björn

Xpost cll,clp

--
BOFH excuse #166:

/pub/lunch
Dec 9 '06 #80

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