Server-side XForms processing with PHP

[jazzslider]

I have a headache.

I've done a LOT of research lately into XForms, and I am thoroughly
convinced that a good implementation of this technology would help me
immensely in converting my department's paper forms into interactive
online systems.

There are a couple of problems I'm facing that I'm hoping someone here
could help with. Number one: browser support for XForms is pitiful,
and I can't expect my target audience to download plugins/extensions
and the like. Number two: JavaScript is my Achilles heel, and I don't
have the first clue about Java, yet every workable XForms
implementation I've ever found uses some combination or other of those
technologies. The Java problem is compounded by the fact that I'm not
in control of my own server; I don't believe I have permission to
install Java code (the server people haven't answered that question
yet), even if I DID know how to use it.

So...this means implementations like Chiba and Orbeon are out of the
question, and although FormFaces is good JavaScript (that I don't have
to look at :D), it's WAY too slow for the forms I'm trying to use it
for. I've also played around with AjaxForms since it only actually
requires Java on the development machine, but it's incorrectly
implementing several crucial XForms specs.

Does anyone here know of a good server-side XForms engine written in
pure PHP (no Java)? It's fine by me if it generates
DHTML/JavaScript/etc. so long as I don't have to write the JavaScript
myself...I realize some kind of client scripting is necessary to make
the coolest stuff in XForms work; I just don't want to have to write it
myself.

Alternatively...I've heard good things about UGO + DENG, a Flash-based
XForms system...the only problem with that is that the website
responsible for that project doesn't seem to be working.

I really need some help with this, even if only to be told that what
I'm looking for doesn't exist yet.

Thank you all very much for any help you can offer!

[Jeremy]

ja********@gmail.com wrote:

I have a headache.

I've done a LOT of research lately into XForms, and I am thoroughly
convinced that a good implementation of this technology would help me
immensely in converting my department's paper forms into interactive
online systems.

There are a couple of problems I'm facing that I'm hoping someone here
could help with. Number one: browser support for XForms is pitiful,
and I can't expect my target audience to download plugins/extensions
and the like. Number two: JavaScript is my Achilles heel, and I don't
have the first clue about Java, yet every workable XForms
implementation I've ever found uses some combination or other of those
technologies. The Java problem is compounded by the fact that I'm not
in control of my own server; I don't believe I have permission to
install Java code (the server people haven't answered that question
yet), even if I DID know how to use it.

A while ago I found this: http://www.formfaces.com/ which is just a
drop-in javascript that enables XForms in pretty much any browser.

Server-side, I've no idea what goes down. I know nothing about XForms,
but I'm guessing it provides XML encoded data rather than URL encoded -
you could process this with PHP's DOM or SimpleXML.

Jeremy

[jazzslider]

Thanks for the tip...I'm familiar with FormFaces, and so far it works
the best out of everything I've been able to try.

Unfortunately, the more complex the XForm, the slower it gets. The
stuff I'm trying to convert is pretty complex; one of my forms took
FormFaces long enough to load that the browser started to complain ("a
script on this page is causing your computer to run slowly"-type
messages).

That's why I like the idea behind AjaxForms (www.ajaxforms.com); it
uses Java (on the development machine, not on the server) to
pre-"compile" a lot of the things that FormFaces has to do at runtime.
If it did a better job of implementing the XForms standards, it's what
I'd be using.

Anyway, thanks for your help; I will keep looking around in the
meantime.

- Adam
Jeremy wrote:

ja********@gmail.com wrote:

I have a headache.

I've done a LOT of research lately into XForms, and I am thoroughly
convinced that a good implementation of this technology would help me
immensely in converting my department's paper forms into interactive
online systems.

There are a couple of problems I'm facing that I'm hoping someone here
could help with. Number one: browser support for XForms is pitiful,
and I can't expect my target audience to download plugins/extensions
and the like. Number two: JavaScript is my Achilles heel, and I don't
have the first clue about Java, yet every workable XForms
implementation I've ever found uses some combination or other of those
technologies. The Java problem is compounded by the fact that I'm not
in control of my own server; I don't believe I have permission to
install Java code (the server people haven't answered that question
yet), even if I DID know how to use it.

A while ago I found this: http://www.formfaces.com/ which is just a
drop-in javascript that enables XForms in pretty much any browser.

Server-side, I've no idea what goes down. I know nothing about XForms,
but I'm guessing it provides XML encoded data rather than URL encoded -
you could process this with PHP's DOM or SimpleXML.

Jeremy

[jazzslider]

Thanks for the tip...I'm familiar with FormFaces, and so far it works
the best out of everything I've been able to try.

Unfortunately, the more complex the XForm, the slower it gets. The
stuff I'm trying to convert is pretty complex; one of my forms took
FormFaces long enough to load that the browser started to complain ("a
script on this page is causing your computer to run slowly"-type
messages).

That's why I like the idea behind AjaxForms (www.ajaxforms.com); it
uses Java (on the development machine, not on the server) to
pre-"compile" a lot of the things that FormFaces has to do at runtime.
If it did a better job of implementing the XForms standards, it's what
I'd be using.

Anyway, thanks for your help; I will keep looking around in the
meantime.

- Adam
Jeremy wrote:

ja********@gmail.com wrote:

I have a headache.

I've done a LOT of research lately into XForms, and I am thoroughly
convinced that a good implementation of this technology would help me
immensely in converting my department's paper forms into interactive
online systems.

There are a couple of problems I'm facing that I'm hoping someone here
could help with. Number one: browser support for XForms is pitiful,
and I can't expect my target audience to download plugins/extensions
and the like. Number two: JavaScript is my Achilles heel, and I don't
have the first clue about Java, yet every workable XForms
implementation I've ever found uses some combination or other of those
technologies. The Java problem is compounded by the fact that I'm not
in control of my own server; I don't believe I have permission to
install Java code (the server people haven't answered that question
yet), even if I DID know how to use it.

A while ago I found this: http://www.formfaces.com/ which is just a
drop-in javascript that enables XForms in pretty much any browser.

Server-side, I've no idea what goes down. I know nothing about XForms,
but I'm guessing it provides XML encoded data rather than URL encoded -
you could process this with PHP's DOM or SimpleXML.

Jeremy

[frothpoker]

sounds like a job for AJAX

AJAX allows you to load a page of HTML and then using javascript
enabled events you can validate information on the form (in elements of
the DOM) and carry out inline replacements of various sections (e.g.,
you need a different authorisation process if the order value is over
£1000) or can check information or combinations of information without
having to submit the whole form and then return the results if they are
not what was required.

It requires javascript to be enabled on the client PCs and you will
need to be running IE6 or the latest version of mozilla (firefox) or
opera but is platform independant.

I'm not convinced of its uses on external web sites but for intranet
usage where you have more control over the settings users have on their
PCs it should be ideal. There are several commercial packages with
pre-built AJAX classes which should ease the pain.

One of AJAX's best features (and the most annoying is web forms) is
where you have a huge drop down list (say 50000 people in a company and
you need to find a name - e.g. Wyznkcsky. in a web form you type 'W'
and the list jumps to the start of W and then you type 'Y' and the list
jumps to the start of Y - Arrrgh!. With an AJAX enabled form the list
is simply filtered to give you all the people who's names either start
with or contain 'WY' - Ta Dah!)

[M]

you are all right - the things you ask for (Jeremy
ja********@gmail.com) are exactly what i need too.

but i thought that in the next php version on eclipse (it is going to
be mvc design) we can desing a php screen + convert it to xforms and
use php on the server side or even just:
"put" and "get" from the server in order to get/send data.

but i don't know if "zend" is going to do that.

frothpoker wrote:

sounds like a job for AJAX

AJAX allows you to load a page of HTML and then using javascript
enabled events you can validate information on the form (in elements of
the DOM) and carry out inline replacements of various sections (e.g.,
you need a different authorisation process if the order value is over
£1000) or can check information or combinations of information without
having to submit the whole form and then return the results if they are
not what was required.

It requires javascript to be enabled on the client PCs and you will
need to be running IE6 or the latest version of mozilla (firefox) or
opera but is platform independant.

I'm not convinced of its uses on external web sites but for intranet
usage where you have more control over the settings users have on their
PCs it should be ideal. There are several commercial packages with
pre-built AJAX classes which should ease the pain.

One of AJAX's best features (and the most annoying is web forms) is
where you have a huge drop down list (say 50000 people in a company and
you need to find a name - e.g. Wyznkcsky. in a web form you type 'W'
and the list jumps to the start of W and then you type 'Y' and the list
jumps to the start of Y - Arrrgh!. With an AJAX enabled form the list
is simply filtered to give you all the people who's names either start
with or contain 'WY' - Ta Dah!)

[jazzslider]

I would definitely be excited to see some kind of native XForms support
in PHP...I haven't ever used Eclipse, though, so I don't really know
what that would entail. I generally do all my development in
Dreamweaver's source code view, since it's what I started with.

I also really like the idea behind AJAX, but I have thus far avoided
writing any of the necessary JavaScript to make that kind of solution
work...every time I've tried, it's been nearly impossible to debug.
The nice thing about XForms in comparison to forms enhanced by AJAX
techniques is that with XForms, the person developing the form (i.e.
myself) doesn't have to write the scripts necessary to make the really
useful stuff (validation, dependent select fields, tab switching, etc.)
happen...rather, XForms is a descriptive language which relies on the
scripting written into the implementation running it.

So, I guess what I'd really like to see is a native PHP XForms
extension that would generate AJAX-enhanced web forms from XForms +
XHTML source code, at least until browsers support XForms natively.
After THAT happens, I'm not sure we'll hear much about AJAX anymore, at
least not for this kind of work.

M wrote:

you are all right - the things you ask for (Jeremy
ja********@gmail.com) are exactly what i need too.

but i thought that in the next php version on eclipse (it is going to
be mvc design) we can desing a php screen + convert it to xforms and
use php on the server side or even just:
"put" and "get" from the server in order to get/send data.

but i don't know if "zend" is going to do that.

frothpoker wrote:

sounds like a job for AJAX

AJAX allows you to load a page of HTML and then using javascript
enabled events you can validate information on the form (in elements of
the DOM) and carry out inline replacements of various sections (e.g.,
you need a different authorisation process if the order value is over
£1000) or can check information or combinations of information without
having to submit the whole form and then return the results if they are
not what was required.

It requires javascript to be enabled on the client PCs and you will
need to be running IE6 or the latest version of mozilla (firefox) or
opera but is platform independant.

I'm not convinced of its uses on external web sites but for intranet
usage where you have more control over the settings users have on their
PCs it should be ideal. There are several commercial packages with
pre-built AJAX classes which should ease the pain.

One of AJAX's best features (and the most annoying is web forms) is
where you have a huge drop down list (say 50000 people in a company and
you need to find a name - e.g. Wyznkcsky. in a web form you type 'W'
and the list jumps to the start of W and then you type 'Y' and the list
jumps to the start of Y - Arrrgh!. With an AJAX enabled form the list
is simply filtered to give you all the people who's names either start
with or contain 'WY' - Ta Dah!)

[Jeff North]

On 12 Oct 2006 10:53:33 -0700, in comp.lang.php ja********@gmail.com
<11**********************@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups .comwrote:

>| I have a headache.
|
| I've done a LOT of research lately into XForms, and I am thoroughly
| convinced that a good implementation of this technology would help me
| immensely in converting my department's paper forms into interactive
| online systems.
|
| There are a couple of problems I'm facing that I'm hoping someone here
| could help with. Number one: browser support for XForms is pitiful,

Agree.

>| and I can't expect my target audience to download plugins/extensions

They just have to, until XForms functionality is build into every
browser.

>| and the like. Number two: JavaScript is my Achilles heel, and I don't
| have the first clue about Java, yet every workable XForms
| implementation I've ever found uses some combination or other of those
| technologies. The Java problem is compounded by the fact that I'm not
| in control of my own server; I don't believe I have permission to
| install Java code (the server people haven't answered that question
| yet), even if I DID know how to use it.

The users browser need to have a java plugin. The server doesn't need
this plugin.

>| So...this means implementations like Chiba and Orbeon are out of the
| question, and although FormFaces is good JavaScript (that I don't have
| to look at :D), it's WAY too slow for the forms I'm trying to use it
| for. I've also played around with AjaxForms since it only actually
| requires Java on the development machine, but it's incorrectly
| implementing several crucial XForms specs.

Each implementation I've looked at so far, is at various stages of
development.

Also I wouldn't rely on Javascript. It has it's own inbuild security
i.e. can't write to local files.

>| Does anyone here know of a good server-side XForms engine written in
| pure PHP (no Java)?

XForms is a browser function. You can use PHP to generate the form but
it is the browser that needs to render and act upon the xhtml code.

>| It's fine by me if it generates
| DHTML/JavaScript/etc. so long as I don't have to write the JavaScript
| myself...I realize some kind of client scripting is necessary to make
| the coolest stuff in XForms work; I just don't want to have to write it
| myself.
|
| Alternatively...I've heard good things about UGO + DENG, a Flash-based
| XForms system...the only problem with that is that the website
| responsible for that project doesn't seem to be working.

but the user will need to install the Flash player plugin for their
browser :-)

"and I can't expect my target audience to download plugins/extensions"

>| I really need some help with this, even if only to be told that

what

>| I'm looking for doesn't exist yet.
|
| Thank you all very much for any help you can offer!

If you want something that 'works' try Microsoft Infopath. It's very
similar to XForms (but then again, users need applications installed
on their machines to run this).

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/FX010857921033.aspx
---------------------------------------------------------------
jn******@yourpantsyahoo.com.au : Remove your pants to reply
---------------------------------------------------------------

[jazzslider]

Hadn't thought of using InfoPath...of course, I'm generally uneasy
about using proprietary formats anyway, especially Microsoft's
proprietary formats. Even so, I do have it on my computer, and it
looks like it does a lot of what I'd like it to do...is there a way to
display fillable InfoPath forms in a web browser? I suppose that would
take extra plugins too.

The plugin problem for me is like this: the people who will need to
fill out these forms are not the people in my department; rather, they
are our customers/clients/etc...in other words, people whose computers
I have no control over. In addition, a large segment of my target
audience is pretty low-tech; they don't have the latest browsers, and
some may not even have their own computers. (i.e., they would be
accessing the forms on public computers)

That's one of the reasons why, if I need a client-side plugin, I need
it to be invisible...I can't expect my target audience to actively
download and install separate plugins, and I can't really rely on
JavaScript (although it'll be available in most cases). Flash would be
OK since it's so ubiquitous, but you're right that it still wouldn't be
available 100% of the time.

However...if our server could do the vast majority of the work
ordinarily done by a browser plugin and then serve up a result
consisting of XHTML + a minimal amount of JavaScript when the user
agent can handle it, that would be ideal. I think this is what Chiba
does, but if it does it on the server side then I can't use it (since I
can't install Java code on the server).

This is the kind of support I'd like to see PHP have for XForms...I
realize PHP can't actually perform the client-side page modifications,
calculations, etc. indicated by XForms actions, but a well-written PHP
implementation could easily generate the JavaScript to do that, OR
provide an alternate (understandably much slower) way of getting some
of that functionality via multiple page requests if JavaScript is not
available to the user agent.

Put more simply, I think what I need is a PHP port of Chiba or Orbeon.
:)

You said, however, that Java solutions would be client-side plugins
rather than server-side...could such a plugin be downloaded and run
passively (i.e., without the user having to deliberately find it and
download it to their computer) and invisibly? I suppose that would be
a potential security risk, but even still if it's possible it might be
my ideal option. If that's possible, how would I do it?

Thanks,
Adam
Jeff North wrote:

On 12 Oct 2006 10:53:33 -0700, in comp.lang.php ja********@gmail.com
<11**********************@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups .comwrote:

| I have a headache.
|
| I've done a LOT of research lately into XForms, and I am thoroughly
| convinced that a good implementation of this technology would help me
| immensely in converting my department's paper forms into interactive
| online systems.
|
| There are a couple of problems I'm facing that I'm hoping someone here
| could help with. Number one: browser support for XForms is pitiful,

Agree.

| and I can't expect my target audience to download plugins/extensions

They just have to, until XForms functionality is build into every
browser.

| and the like. Number two: JavaScript is my Achilles heel, and I don't
| have the first clue about Java, yet every workable XForms
| implementation I've ever found uses some combination or other of those
| technologies. The Java problem is compounded by the fact that I'm not
| in control of my own server; I don't believe I have permission to
| install Java code (the server people haven't answered that question
| yet), even if I DID know how to use it.

The users browser need to have a java plugin. The server doesn't need
this plugin.

| So...this means implementations like Chiba and Orbeon are out of the
| question, and although FormFaces is good JavaScript (that I don't have
| to look at :D), it's WAY too slow for the forms I'm trying to use it
| for. I've also played around with AjaxForms since it only actually
| requires Java on the development machine, but it's incorrectly
| implementing several crucial XForms specs.

Each implementation I've looked at so far, is at various stages of
development.

Also I wouldn't rely on Javascript. It has it's own inbuild security
i.e. can't write to local files.

| Does anyone here know of a good server-side XForms engine written in
| pure PHP (no Java)?

XForms is a browser function. You can use PHP to generate the form but
it is the browser that needs to render and act upon the xhtml code.

| It's fine by me if it generates
| DHTML/JavaScript/etc. so long as I don't have to write the JavaScript
| myself...I realize some kind of client scripting is necessary to make
| the coolest stuff in XForms work; I just don't want to have to write it
| myself.
|
| Alternatively...I've heard good things about UGO + DENG, a Flash-based
| XForms system...the only problem with that is that the website
| responsible for that project doesn't seem to be working.

but the user will need to install the Flash player plugin for their
browser :-)

"and I can't expect my target audience to download plugins/extensions"

| I really need some help with this, even if only to be told that

what

| I'm looking for doesn't exist yet.
|
| Thank you all very much for any help you can offer!

If you want something that 'works' try Microsoft Infopath. It's very
similar to XForms (but then again, users need applications installed
on their machines to run this).

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/FX010857921033.aspx
---------------------------------------------------------------
jn******@yourpantsyahoo.com.au : Remove your pants to reply
---------------------------------------------------------------

[Jeff North]

On 17 Oct 2006 09:43:47 -0700, in comp.lang.php "jazzslider"
<ja********@gmail.com>
<11**********************@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups .comwrote:

>| Hadn't thought of using InfoPath...of course, I'm generally uneasy
| about using proprietary formats anyway, especially Microsoft's
| proprietary formats. Even so, I do have it on my computer, and it
| looks like it does a lot of what I'd like it to do...is there a way to
| display fillable InfoPath forms in a web browser? I suppose that would
| take extra plugins too.

InfoPath (as far as I am aware) is not browser centric.

>| The plugin problem for me is like this: the people who will need to
| fill out these forms are not the people in my department; rather, they
| are our customers/clients/etc...in other words, people whose computers
| I have no control over. In addition, a large segment of my target
| audience is pretty low-tech; they don't have the latest browsers, and
| some may not even have their own computers. (i.e., they would be
| accessing the forms on public computers)

I feel your pain :-)
When I first 'discovered' XForms I thought it was the answer to all my
prayers. But then reality set in :-(
I needed the added ability for the client to work in either on-line or
off-line mode. This meant that their data had to be saved to a local
drive (something that javascript can't do, not easily anyway).

>| That's one of the reasons why, if I need a client-side plugin, I need
| it to be invisible...I can't expect my target audience to actively
| download and install separate plugins, and I can't really rely on
| JavaScript (although it'll be available in most cases). Flash would be
| OK since it's so ubiquitous, but you're right that it still wouldn't be
| available 100% of the time.

I looked at the Flash plugin but I haven't tried it.
This might be the way to go due to the diversity of the client base.

>| However...if our server could do the vast majority of the work
| ordinarily done by a browser plugin and then serve up a result
| consisting of XHTML + a minimal amount of JavaScript when the user
| agent can handle it, that would be ideal. I think this is what Chiba
| does, but if it does it on the server side then I can't use it (since I
| can't install Java code on the server).
|
| This is the kind of support I'd like to see PHP have for XForms...I
| realize PHP can't actually perform the client-side page modifications,
| calculations, etc. indicated by XForms actions, but a well-written PHP
| implementation could easily generate the JavaScript to do that, OR
| provide an alternate (understandably much slower) way of getting some
| of that functionality via multiple page requests if JavaScript is not
| available to the user agent.

I don't think that the rest of the world has caught onto XForms as yet
thus the development is quite slow.

Have you looked at AJAX. Since you are processing the information
on-line then this might be the way to go. Of course it doesn't have
the built-in whiz-bang features of XForms but it could be implemented.

What I'm wanting is that mySQL supports XML files. Infopath allows you
to specify tables and fields for each entry and when you complete the
form the data is placed within the database automagically :-)

>| Put more simply, I think what I need is a PHP port of Chiba or Orbeon.
| :)
|
| You said, however, that Java solutions would be client-side plugins
| rather than server-side...could such a plugin be downloaded and run
| passively (i.e., without the user having to deliberately find it and
| download it to their computer) and invisibly? I suppose that would be
| a potential security risk, but even still if it's possible it might be
| my ideal option. If that's possible, how would I do it?

I think that is part of the browser security setting. Not sure about
this, you'd have to check.

[snip 2 end]
---------------------------------------------------------------
jn******@yourpantsyahoo.com.au : Remove your pants to reply
---------------------------------------------------------------