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PHP has encountered an access violation...

I have an intranet-only site running in Windows XPPro, IIS 5.1, PHP
5.2.5. I have not used or changed this site for several months - the
last time I worked with it, all was well.

When I tried it just now, I am getting the subject error message
(specifically: PHP has encountered an access violation at 00F76E21).

The error is NOT occurring on every page request (but it is on most of
them) and, when I get the error, simply pressing <F5to refresh the
page results in the page being served successfully.

Some googling around indicates that "permission s" are not set
correctly. But, if that was actually the case, a <refreshwouldn' t
work either would it? This seems to be a sporadic issue.

Any ideas as to what's going on here?
Sep 4 '08
39 4288
AqD wrote:
On Sep 8, 10:17 am, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attg lobal.netwrote:
>AqD wrote:
>>On Sep 5, 8:50 pm, "Dale" <the....@exampl e.comwrote:
"AqD" <aquila.d...@gm ail.comwrote in message
news:74***** *************** **************@ p10g2000prf.goo glegroups.com.. .
Martin wrote:
>I have an intranet-only site running in Windows XPPro, IIS 5.1, PHP
>5.2.5. I have not used or changed this site for several months - the
>last time I worked with it, all was well.
>When I tried it just now, I am getting the subject error message
>(specifica lly: PHP has encountered an access violation at 00F76E21).
>The error is NOT occurring on every page request (but it is on most of
>them) and, when I get the error, simply pressing <F5to refresh the
>page results in the page being served successfully.
>Some googling around indicates that "permission s" are not set
>correctl y. But, if that was actually the case, a <refreshwouldn' t
>work either would it? This seems to be a sporadic issue.
>Any ideas as to what's going on here?
Some kind of internal bug in PHP.
and exactly HOW would you know that?!
Because the access violation is not caught and correctly reported in
PHP module, i.e. the php module crashed.
Therefore it's an internal bug.
The access violation error tells
NOTHING and you don't need to waste time on it.
hmmm...it tells you the application is trying to do something that it is not
allowed to do. your comments seem to be the only thing wasting anyone's
time.
Yes it is. Unless you want to spend time debugging IIS & PHP module.
Try different PHP versions or use apache to host PHP scripts. Apache
is less problemic with PHP in my experience.
well, well, well. seems like you don't really think it is 'some kind of
internal bug in PHP' after all! now you're saying it's IIS, or any other
webserver but apache.
if you don't have enough information to go on, don't assume so wonderfully
and precisely what the specific problem is or what is going to solve it!
The OP was trying to find out what the problem is. It doesn't help
him.
Even if he finds out why the problem access violation was casued, he
cannot solve it by fixing php or iis. So why waste time on things you
cannot fix?
Maybe because if no one ever took the time to find problems and report
them to Zend, problems would never get fixed.

So you would rather try to work around all of those problems caused by
an unstable product because, by your philosophy, no one should spend the
time reporting bugs.

And BTW - PHP is open source, if you hadn't known. He very well could
find and fix the problem should be be so inclined and have the time to
do so. So that's another way in which your argument is fallacious.

From the OP: "The error is NOT occurring on every page request (but it
is on most of
them) and, when I get the error, simply pressing <F5to refresh the
page results in the page being served successfully."

PHP gives no option to dump memory or to print internal stack thrace.

If they hope people to report bugs, they should provide these things
and add some UI like "send error report" button, because most php
programmers are not C experts and it'd take too much time for them to
debug manually.
And exactly how do you expect to add a "send error report" button to a
programming language?

This has to be the most idiotic idea I've ever heard in this newsgroup!

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

Sep 8 '08 #31
AqD wrote:
On Sep 8, 10:22 am, "Dale" <the....@exampl e.comwrote:
>"AqD" <aquila.d...@gm ail.comwrote in message

news:09******* *************** ************@q5 g2000prf.google groups.com...
On Sep 5, 8:50 pm, "Dale" <the....@exampl e.comwrote:


>>"AqD" <aquila.d...@gm ail.comwrote in message
news:74****** *************** *************@p 10g2000prf.goog legroups.com...
Martin wrote:
I have an intranet-only site running in Windows XPPro, IIS 5.1, PHP
5.2.5. I have not used or changed this site for several months - the
last time I worked with it, all was well.
When I tried it just now, I am getting the subject error message
(specifical ly: PHP has encountered an access violation at 00F76E21).
The error is NOT occurring on every page request (but it is on most of
them) and, when I get the error, simply pressing <F5to refresh the
page results in the page being served successfully.
Some googling around indicates that "permission s" are not set
correctly . But, if that was actually the case, a <refreshwouldn' t
work either would it? This seems to be a sporadic issue.
Any ideas as to what's going on here?
Some kind of internal bug in PHP.
and exactly HOW would you know that?!
Because the access violation is not caught and correctly reported in
PHP module, i.e. the php module crashed.

Therefore it's an internal bug.

=== uhmmm, no, that would only mean that php didn't catch an exception. the
access violation IS the problem...not the fact that php didn't handle the
exception!
>>>The access violation error tells
NOTHING and you don't need to waste time on it.
hmmm...it tells you the application is trying to do something that it is
not
allowed to do. your comments seem to be the only thing wasting anyone's
time.
Yes it is. Unless you want to spend time debugging IIS & PHP module.

=== 'yes it is', what? 'it', being your comments? as far as debugging goes,
if you heed the access violation error message, you can start and probably
end by looking at file permissions on both the dll's and any
directories/files that are in play as seen in the op's code.

Sorry but you misunderstood what the error means. It's not directly
related to files. The access violation is on memory not file. If non-
permitted files are accessed by PHP, it would probably be reported.

Memory access violation is usually caused by calling null pointer or
freed resource. And given the fact that the error is usually not re-
producable, you cannot track it unless you have a memory dump, or your
php is running with dubug symbols and is attached by a runtime
debugger (not php debugger).
Maybe in YOUR code. There are lots of other reasons for access
violations. But real programmers know that.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

Sep 8 '08 #32
On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 07:52:22 -0700, Martin <ir************ @gmail.com>
wrote:
>I have an intranet-only site running in Windows XPPro, IIS 5.1, PHP
5.2.5. I have not used or changed this site for several months - the
last time I worked with it, all was well.

When I tried it just now, I am getting the subject error message
(specificall y: PHP has encountered an access violation at 00F76E21).

The error is NOT occurring on every page request (but it is on most of
them) and, when I get the error, simply pressing <F5to refresh the
page results in the page being served successfully.

Some googling around indicates that "permission s" are not set
correctly. But, if that was actually the case, a <refreshwouldn' t
work either would it? This seems to be a sporadic issue.

Any ideas as to what's going on here?
At Jerry's suggestion, I uninstalled PHP 5.2.5 and installed 5.2.6.
But to no avail. The random error continued exactly as before. I
re-booted the computer several times - made no difference.

That was last Friday. I shut the whole thing down and didn't mess with
again until this morning (Monday). Well, guess what? Now, it's working
just fine! No errors of any kind on any page! ?!?!?!? I don't
know... Something random going on here.

All these posts about turning in a bug report or recompiling or C++ or
error logging are WAY over my head. I'll leave all that to you gurus.
Sep 8 '08 #33

"AqD" <aq*********@gm ail.comwrote in message
news:c5******** *************** ***********@z6g 2000pre.googleg roups.com...
On Sep 8, 12:18 pm, "Dale" <the....@exampl e.comwrote:
"AqD" <aquila.d...@gm ail.comwrote in message

news:98******** *************** ***********@r15 g2000prd.google groups.com...
On Sep 8, 10:17 am, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attg lobal.netwrote:


AqD wrote:
On Sep 5, 8:50 pm, "Dale" <the....@exampl e.comwrote:
>"AqD" <aquila.d...@gm ail.comwrote in message
>>news:74****** *************** *************@p 10g2000prf.goog legroups.com...
>>Martin wrote:
>>>I have an intranet-only site running in Windows XPPro, IIS 5.1, PHP
>>>5.2.5. I have not used or changed this site for several months -
>>>the
>>>last time I worked with it, all was well.
>>>When I tried it just now, I am getting the subject error message
>>>(specificall y: PHP has encountered an access violation at
>>>00F76E21).
>>>The error is NOT occurring on every page request (but it is on most
>>>of
>>>them) and, when I get the error, simply pressing <F5to refresh
>>>the
>>>page results in the page being served successfully.
>>>Some googling around indicates that "permission s" are not set
>>>correctly. But, if that was actually the case, a <refreshwouldn' t
>>>work either would it? This seems to be a sporadic issue.
>>>Any ideas as to what's going on here?
>>Some kind of internal bug in PHP.
>and exactly HOW would you know that?!
Because the access violation is not caught and correctly reported in
PHP module, i.e. the php module crashed.
Therefore it's an internal bug.
>>The access violation error tells
>>NOTHING and you don't need to waste time on it.
>hmmm...it tells you the application is trying to do something that it
>is not
>allowed to do. your comments seem to be the only thing wasting
>anyone's
>time.
Yes it is. Unless you want to spend time debugging IIS & PHP module.
>>Try different PHP versions or use apache to host PHP scripts. Apache
>>is less problemic with PHP in my experience.
>well, well, well. seems like you don't really think it is 'some kind
>of
>internal bug in PHP' after all! now you're saying it's IIS, or any
>other
>webserver but apache.
>if you don't have enough information to go on, don't assume so
>wonderfully
>and precisely what the specific problem is or what is going to solve
>it!
The OP was trying to find out what the problem is. It doesn't help
him.
Even if he finds out why the problem access violation was casued, he
cannot solve it by fixing php or iis. So why waste time on things you
cannot fix?
Maybe because if no one ever took the time to find problems and report
them to Zend, problems would never get fixed.
So you would rather try to work around all of those problems caused by
an unstable product because, by your philosophy, no one should spend the
time reporting bugs.
And BTW - PHP is open source, if you hadn't known. He very well could
find and fix the problem should be be so inclined and have the time to
do so. So that's another way in which your argument is fallacious.

From the OP: "The error is NOT occurring on every page request (but it
is on most of
them) and, when I get the error, simply pressing <F5to refresh the
page results in the page being served successfully."

PHP gives no option to dump memory or to print internal stack thrace.

If they hope people to report bugs, they should provide these things
and add some UI like "send error report" button, because most php
programmers are not C experts and it'd take too much time for them to
debug manually.

=== listen, you've got to do your homework before your opinion is
considered
more than uninformed! you CAN get a stack *trace* (spelling corrected!)
and
you CAN get php to produce a memory dump.
How?

=== loadable modules for one. if one is not to your liking, create one
yourself.

further, if we had the actual access violation error message, we could
certainly assertain immediately via google whether or not the violation
was
at a memory address or was an error code (i.e. insufficient priveleges).
So what result have you got from google? ;)

=== google 'php access violation'. you may even get lucky and see the actual
violation error message the op is complaining about...along with the
solution. when you're doing this, notice how many of them deal with iis
permissions being the culprit, NOT corrupt or improperly accessed memory!
If you really know anything that can help the OP, just say it.

=== i very well MAY know how to help the op. my initial response to the op
contains my request to see relative code associated with the problem. were i
to just chime in with an unfounded 'solution' i'd be like you...guessing in
the dark and making myself look daft!
Sep 8 '08 #34

"Jerry Stuckle" <js*******@attg lobal.netwrote in message
news:ga******** **@registered.m otzarella.org.. .
AqD wrote:
>On Sep 8, 10:22 am, "Dale" <the....@exampl e.comwrote:
>>"AqD" <aquila.d...@gm ail.comwrote in message

news:09****** *************** *************@q 5g2000prf.googl egroups.com...
On Sep 5, 8:50 pm, "Dale" <the....@exampl e.comwrote:

"AqD" <aquila.d...@gm ail.comwrote in message
news:74***** *************** **************@ p10g2000prf.goo glegroups.com.. .
Martin wrote:
>I have an intranet-only site running in Windows XPPro, IIS 5.1, PHP
>5.2.5. I have not used or changed this site for several months - the
>last time I worked with it, all was well.
>When I tried it just now, I am getting the subject error message
>(specifica lly: PHP has encountered an access violation at 00F76E21).
>The error is NOT occurring on every page request (but it is on most
>of
>them) and, when I get the error, simply pressing <F5to refresh the
>page results in the page being served successfully.
>Some googling around indicates that "permission s" are not set
>correctl y. But, if that was actually the case, a <refreshwouldn' t
>work either would it? This seems to be a sporadic issue.
>Any ideas as to what's going on here?
Some kind of internal bug in PHP.
and exactly HOW would you know that?!
Because the access violation is not caught and correctly reported in
PHP module, i.e. the php module crashed.

Therefore it's an internal bug.

=== uhmmm, no, that would only mean that php didn't catch an exception.
the
access violation IS the problem...not the fact that php didn't handle
the
exception!

The access violation error tells
NOTHING and you don't need to waste time on it.
hmmm...it tells you the application is trying to do something that it
is
not
allowed to do. your comments seem to be the only thing wasting anyone's
time.
Yes it is. Unless you want to spend time debugging IIS & PHP module.

=== 'yes it is', what? 'it', being your comments? as far as debugging
goes,
if you heed the access violation error message, you can start and
probably
end by looking at file permissions on both the dll's and any
directories/files that are in play as seen in the op's code.

Sorry but you misunderstood what the error means. It's not directly
related to files. The access violation is on memory not file. If non-
permitted files are accessed by PHP, it would probably be reported.

Memory access violation is usually caused by calling null pointer or
freed resource. And given the fact that the error is usually not re-
producable, you cannot track it unless you have a memory dump, or your
php is running with dubug symbols and is attached by a runtime
debugger (not php debugger).

Maybe in YOUR code. There are lots of other reasons for access
violations. But real programmers know that.
which is why i'm baffled, jerry, as to why YOU would know that.
Sep 8 '08 #35

"Martin" <ir************ @gmail.comwrote in message
news:g3******** *************** *********@4ax.c om...
On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 07:52:22 -0700, Martin <ir************ @gmail.com>
wrote:
>>I have an intranet-only site running in Windows XPPro, IIS 5.1, PHP
5.2.5. I have not used or changed this site for several months - the
last time I worked with it, all was well.

When I tried it just now, I am getting the subject error message
(specifically : PHP has encountered an access violation at 00F76E21).

The error is NOT occurring on every page request (but it is on most of
them) and, when I get the error, simply pressing <F5to refresh the
page results in the page being served successfully.

Some googling around indicates that "permission s" are not set
correctly. But, if that was actually the case, a <refreshwouldn' t
work either would it? This seems to be a sporadic issue.

Any ideas as to what's going on here?

At Jerry's suggestion, I uninstalled PHP 5.2.5 and installed 5.2.6.
But to no avail. The random error continued exactly as before. I
re-booted the computer several times - made no difference.

That was last Friday. I shut the whole thing down and didn't mess with
again until this morning (Monday). Well, guess what? Now, it's working
just fine! No errors of any kind on any page! ?!?!?!? I don't
know... Something random going on here.
what may be 'random' is that the 'faulty' dll that is possibly in question
remained loaded in memory even though you had a new/upgraded install of php.
shutting down the computer and turning it back on would have cause the new,
correct dll to be used...thus solving your problem and the related symptoms.
they don't call it 'dll hell' for nothing!
All these posts about turning in a bug report or recompiling or C++ or
error logging are WAY over my head. I'll leave all that to you gurus.
i'd ignore those as most are simply shots in the dark, wholly lacking the
needed information to determine if any of it was going to be at all
successful. for you, i'd just have faith in the stability of both IIS and
PHP. if you run into those kinds of problems, you're more than likely going
to have a config problem at the root of any troubles. for all the bashing of
IIS, i've run several web servers with it, private and commercial, and never
had any problems. i do however highly recommend apache...if you can't afford
zeus - which is undeniably the best web server out there. apache is more
robust than IIS and, hell, you can't beat FREE !

cheers.
Sep 8 '08 #36
>If they hope people to report bugs, they should provide these things
>and add some UI like "send error report" button, because most php
programmers are not C experts and it'd take too much time for them to
debug manually.

And exactly how do you expect to add a "send error report" button to a
programming language?
Easy: the same way they put "send low on gasoline report" buttons
on gas cans and gas tanks. Oh, wait, you mean all gas cans aren't
on the Internet?

Obviously the intent here is to have the web site USER send the
error report: a security hole at best.
>This has to be the most idiotic idea I've ever heard in this newsgroup!
It does qualify right up there with the insistence of one manager
that if a user lost his modem connection, the BASIC interpreter
should ask the now-disconnected user (it would really be talking
to the modem) whether to save the program. This generally involved
the modem and the program yelling at each other, chewing up most of the
CPU time, and ensuring that the user couldn't dial in again.

Sep 8 '08 #37

"Gordon Burditt" <go***********@ burditt.orgwrot e in message
news:2N******** *************** *******@posted. internetamerica ...
>>If they hope people to report bugs, they should provide these things
and add some UI like "send error report" button, because most php
programmers are not C experts and it'd take too much time for them to
debug manually.

And exactly how do you expect to add a "send error report" button to a
programming language?

Easy: the same way they put "send low on gasoline report" buttons
on gas cans and gas tanks. Oh, wait, you mean all gas cans aren't
on the Internet?
oh, so we shouldn't expect the 'on-star' trend to continue but rather,
decline. i get what you're saying.
Obviously the intent here is to have the web site USER send the
error report: a security hole at best.
well no! you can keep it all automated on the server. that's just an
assumption based on limited thinking.

as for 'security hole'...nothing is more secure than what you make it. it
doesn't sound like you trust your skills to make dikes without leaks.
>>This has to be the most idiotic idea I've ever heard in this newsgroup!

It does qualify right up there with the insistence of one manager
that if a user lost his modem connection, the BASIC interpreter
should ask the now-disconnected user (it would really be talking
to the modem) whether to save the program. This generally involved
the modem and the program yelling at each other, chewing up most of the
CPU time, and ensuring that the user couldn't dial in again.
what tha?!!! i'm sure that's a personal experience that you just fail to
relate easily to those without said experience. it is a SOUND idea and is
incorporated in domino's pizza's POS software, PULSE, a software system i
helped build - i was one of seven core developers on that project. we did
lots of automation to detect and report system inconsistencies whether in
the data or the software itself. not thinking ahead or limiting what
can/should be done qualifies 'right up there'.

cheers.
Sep 9 '08 #38
AqD
On Sep 8, 7:04 pm, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attg lobal.netwrote:
AqDwrote:
On Sep 8, 10:17 am, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attg lobal.netwrote:
>AqDwrote:
On Sep 5, 8:50 pm, "Dale" <the....@exampl e.comwrote:
"AqD" <aquila.d...@gm ail.comwrote in message
news:74***** *************** **************@ p10g2000prf.goo glegroups.com.. .
Martin wrote:
I have an intranet-only site running in Windows XPPro, IIS 5.1, PHP
5.2.5. I have not used or changed this site for several months - the
last time I worked with it, all was well.
When I tried it just now, I am getting the subject error message
(specifical ly: PHP has encountered an access violation at 00F76E21).
The error is NOT occurring on every page request (but it is on most of
them) and, when I get the error, simply pressing <F5to refresh the
page results in the page being served successfully.
Some googling around indicates that "permission s" are not set
correctly . But, if that was actually the case, a <refreshwouldn' t
work either would it? This seems to be a sporadic issue.
Any ideas as to what's going on here?
Some kind of internal bug in PHP.
and exactly HOW would you know that?!
Because the access violation is not caught and correctly reported in
PHP module, i.e. the php module crashed.
Therefore it's an internal bug.
The access violation error tells
NOTHING and you don't need to waste time on it.
hmmm...it tells you the application is trying to do something that it is not
allowed to do. your comments seem to be the only thing wasting anyone's
time.
Yes it is. Unless you want to spend time debugging IIS & PHP module.
Try different PHP versions or use apache to host PHP scripts. Apache
is less problemic with PHP in my experience.
well, well, well. seems like you don't really think it is 'some kind of
internal bug in PHP' after all! now you're saying it's IIS, or any other
webserver but apache.
if you don't have enough information to go on, don't assume so wonderfully
and precisely what the specific problem is or what is going to solve it!
The OP was trying to find out what the problem is. It doesn't help
him.
Even if he finds out why the problem access violation was casued, he
cannot solve it by fixing php or iis. So why waste time on things you
cannot fix?
Maybe because if no one ever took the time to find problems and report
them to Zend, problems would never get fixed.
So you would rather try to work around all of those problems caused by
an unstable product because, by your philosophy, no one should spend the
time reporting bugs.
And BTW - PHP is open source, if you hadn't known. He very well could
find and fix the problem should be be so inclined and have the time to
do so. So that's another way in which your argument is fallacious.
From the OP: "The error is NOT occurring on every page request (but it
is on most of
them) and, when I get the error, simply pressing <F5to refresh the
page results in the page being served successfully."
PHP gives no option to dump memory or to print internal stack thrace.
If they hope people to report bugs, they should provide these things
and add some UI like "send error report" button, because most php
programmers are not C experts and it'd take too much time for them to
debug manually.

And exactly how do you expect to add a "send error report" button to a
programming language?

This has to be the most idiotic idea I've ever heard in this newsgroup!
On windows any services can be configured to do GUI on local desktop.
Oct 28 '08 #39
AqD wrote:
On Sep 8, 7:04 pm, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attg lobal.netwrote:
>AqDwrote:
>>On Sep 8, 10:17 am, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attg lobal.netwrote:
AqDwrote:
On Sep 5, 8:50 pm, "Dale" <the....@exampl e.comwrote:
>"AqD" <aquila.d...@gm ail.comwrote in message
>news:74*** *************** *************** *@p10g2000prf.g ooglegroups.com ...
>>Martin wrote:
>>>I have an intranet-only site running in Windows XPPro, IIS 5.1, PHP
>>>5.2.5. I have not used or changed this site for several months - the
>>>last time I worked with it, all was well.
>>>When I tried it just now, I am getting the subject error message
>>>(specifi cally: PHP has encountered an access violation at 00F76E21).
>>>The error is NOT occurring on every page request (but it is on most of
>>>them) and, when I get the error, simply pressing <F5to refresh the
>>>page results in the page being served successfully.
>>>Some googling around indicates that "permission s" are not set
>>>correctl y. But, if that was actually the case, a <refreshwouldn' t
>>>work either would it? This seems to be a sporadic issue.
>>>Any ideas as to what's going on here?
>>Some kind of internal bug in PHP.
>and exactly HOW would you know that?!
Because the access violation is not caught and correctly reported in
PHP module, i.e. the php module crashed.
Therefore it's an internal bug.
>>The access violation error tells
>>NOTHING and you don't need to waste time on it.
>hmmm...i t tells you the application is trying to do something that it is not
>allowed to do. your comments seem to be the only thing wasting anyone's
>time.
Yes it is. Unless you want to spend time debugging IIS & PHP module.
>>Try different PHP versions or use apache to host PHP scripts. Apache
>>is less problemic with PHP in my experience.
>well, well, well. seems like you don't really think it is 'some kind of
>internal bug in PHP' after all! now you're saying it's IIS, or any other
>webserve r but apache.
>if you don't have enough information to go on, don't assume so wonderfully
>and precisely what the specific problem is or what is going to solve it!
The OP was trying to find out what the problem is. It doesn't help
him.
Even if he finds out why the problem access violation was casued, he
cannot solve it by fixing php or iis. So why waste time on things you
cannot fix?
Maybe because if no one ever took the time to find problems and report
them to Zend, problems would never get fixed.
So you would rather try to work around all of those problems caused by
an unstable product because, by your philosophy, no one should spend the
time reporting bugs.
And BTW - PHP is open source, if you hadn't known. He very well could
find and fix the problem should be be so inclined and have the time to
do so. So that's another way in which your argument is fallacious.
From the OP: "The error is NOT occurring on every page request (but it
is on most of
them) and, when I get the error, simply pressing <F5to refresh the
page results in the page being served successfully."
PHP gives no option to dump memory or to print internal stack thrace.
If they hope people to report bugs, they should provide these things
and add some UI like "send error report" button, because most php
programmers are not C experts and it'd take too much time for them to
debug manually.
And exactly how do you expect to add a "send error report" button to a
programming language?

This has to be the most idiotic idea I've ever heard in this newsgroup!

On windows any services can be configured to do GUI on local desktop.
A programming language is not a service.

I repeat. this is the most idiotic idea I've ever heard in this newsgroup!

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

Oct 28 '08 #40

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