150  6579 
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 18:03:27 +0000, Colin Fine
<ne**@kindness. demon.co.uk> wrote: You may well be right that it will become increasingly difficult to find
systems that aren't case insensitive. But I've yet to hear a reason why
this is to be welcomed, while I do know a couple of reasons not to
welcome it.
Case-sensitive begets case-sensitive. If you have a case-sensitive
file system, that tends to bleed over to case-sensitive language
identifiers. Once you have one langauge that's case-sensitive (like
C) other languages need to interface with that language.
If all programming languages existed in a vacuum, then you could
pretty much do whatever you want. But in reality, everything has to
work with everything else and really only the languages that play nice
in the overall world succeed. PHP became popular originally because
it leveraged many existing C libraries.
I'm not sure it matters anymore which choice is better -- it's simply
a matter of which ever is more common. Betamax vs. VHS.
"Jerry Stuckle" <js*******@attg lobal.net> wrote in message
news:nO******** ************@co mcast.com... Colin Fine wrote: Well, it's a hell a lot more than you've done, isn't it? And since they
created the language, they get to set the rules.
It really doesn't matter if you agree or not. The fact is the vast
majority of programmers in this world disagree with you.
Progress ALWAYS has its detractors.
WHY IS IT PROGRESS?????
Because it's better, IMHO.
Exactly why is case-sensitivity better? No human language allows a word to
have a different meaning just by canging its case, so why should a computer
language be different, espeically when that difference allows for
unmaintainable code?
And if the majority of programmers didn't think it was progress, it
wouldn't have caught on.
Mere programmers don't have a choice, it's only the language authors that
have a choice. And what was their reason for choosing case-sensitivity when
all previous languages, whether human or computer, were entirely and
completely case-insensitive? There is no good reason, which leads me to the
conclusion that it was a STUPID MISTAKE that you are trying to perpetuate.
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 18:09:24 +0000, Colin Fine
<ne**@kindness. demon.co.uk> wrote: WHY IS IT PROGRESS?????
PHP5 is a vast improvement on PHP4 in a number of ways. But they could
equally well have resolved the inconsistency between variable and
function names by removing case sensitivity for the former.
I'd say that adding case-sensitivity breaks less code than removing
case-sensitivity would. Adding case-sensitivity in PHP might create a
alot of hard errors (calling functions with the wrong case, for
example) but it will never go silently. Removing case-sensitivity
from variables can easily create situations where you silently end up
with incorrect results.
You've chosen four popular languages and said, look they're popular.
What about the hundreds of language you've never heard of. I have no
doubt some of them had considerable merit.
Any languages that have features of significant merit eventually get
incorporated into popular languages. HaskellDB is being incorporated
into C# in the form of LINQ. Very soon millions of programmers will
use a powerful feature of Haskell yet only a few thousand will ever
even know where it came from.
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 22:48:06 -0000, "Tony Marston"
<to**@NOSPAM.de mon.co.uk> wrote: By mixing case I mean mixing case in the same word. Some organisations like
all upper case, some like all lower case, but NOBODY likes a mixture of case
in the same word. That is the difference.
Ummm.. camelCase is used ALOT. In fact, camelCase is now becoming
the standard for PHP. avariableliketh isisveryhardtou nderstand.
itsMuchEasierTo SayThingsWithSo meCapitals.
>> trouble will all caps or the first letter capitalized. What about
>> the
>> difference between setsLower() and setSlower()? To a human reader
>> those have different meanings,
>
>Not to me, they don't.
So lets say we're in a case-insensitive language and the function I
described above is listed in the program with both those cases. Tell
me, please, what does that function do?
The function name is listed only once, but it can be invoked in either
upper or lower case.
You didn't answer my question! -5 points for you!
You name me any language that has the same function name listed more than
once in a different case.
What, you cannot image an application with both setsLower() and
setSlower() functions? Or at least something similar...
Any language that deliberately allows the same variable or function name to
exist in more than one case, and to have different meanings for each
combination of case would be immediately slammed as being a VERY BAD
language.
Wow. You just said that every single modern programming language is
VERY BAD. Why should we listen to your opinions?
If a language enforces case-sensitivity by auto-correcting each
name as you key it in, that is acceptable
The last language that did that -- Visual Basic -- is now dead. It
was case-insensitive but corrected the case to the declared casing.
Merry Christmas,
Message-ID: <gq************ *************** *****@4ax.com> from Wayne
contained the following: The last language that did that -- Visual Basic -- is now dead. It
was case-insensitive but corrected the case to the declared casing.
Dead? How so?
--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/
On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 00:03:55 +0000, Geoff Berrow
<bl******@ckdog .co.uk> wrote: Message-ID: <gq************ *************** *****@4ax.com> from Wayne
contained the following:
The last language that did that -- Visual Basic -- is now dead. It
was case-insensitive but corrected the case to the declared casing.
Dead? How so?
Discontinued. Oh but I see that VB.NET is also case-sensitive (I
didn't know that) so nevermind!
Tony Marston wrote: "Jerry Stuckle" <js*******@attg lobal.net> wrote in message
news:_Z******** *************** *******@comcast .com...
Colin Fine wrote:
Nobody's given a convincing reason why case sensitivity is better. (The
nearest to it is the stuff about the cost of doing the comparisons. That
might have been an issue when Unix and C started up, but it's not very
convincing today.).
You may well be right that it will become increasingly difficult to find
systems that aren't case insensitive. But I've yet to hear a reason why
this is to be welcomed, while I do know a couple of reasons not to
welcome it.
Colin
Neither I nor anyone else needs to "give a convincing reason...". The
bottom line is - that's the way things are, and it is supported by a vast
majority of programmers.
However, there have been other reasons mentioned in this topic. But I
suspect none of them are "good enough" for you.
And I haven't heard any good reasons why NOT to welcome it. Just saying
$Foo and $fOO shouldn't point to different variables doesn't make it. To
me they ARE different variables (although I wouldn't do this myself).
Why wouldn't you do it yourself? Because it would lead to confusing and
unmentionable code, that's why. Any language that allows a programmer to
create confusing and unmaintainable code is a BAD language in my book.
You can create confusing and unmaintainable code in ANY language - even
COBOL. Case sensitivity has NOTHING to do with it.
--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp. js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===
Tony Marston wrote: Because it's better, IMHO.
Exactly why is case-sensitivity better? No human language allows a word to
have a different meaning just by canging its case, so why should a computer
language be different, espeically when that difference allows for
unmaintainable code?
I'm not going to bite on that one any more. Several people have tried
to tell you. Go back through this thread. I'm not going to repeat
their arguments.
The one exception I will make - when computers can understand verbal
instructions (or even written instructions) like people do, then you can
compare computer and human languages. Until then, you are talking
apples and oranges.
And if the majority of programmers didn't think it was progress, it
wouldn't have caught on.
Mere programmers don't have a choice, it's only the language authors that
have a choice. And what was their reason for choosing case-sensitivity when
all previous languages, whether human or computer, were entirely and
completely case-insensitive? There is no good reason, which leads me to the
conclusion that it was a STUPID MISTAKE that you are trying to perpetuate.
Horse Hockey. EVERY programmer has a choice as to which language to use.
And quite frankly, most programmers I know would put you in the
"old-timer-has-been-who-refuses-to-change-but-wants-everyone-else-to-change-to-suit-him"
category.
And quite frankly, I really don't give a damn what you think. So I'm
not going to waste any more of my time.
--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp. js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===
Tony Marston wrote: "Jerry Stuckle" <js*******@attg lobal.net> wrote in message
news:LY******** *************** *******@comcast .com...
It really doesn't matter if you agree or not. The fact is the vast
majority of programmers in this world disagree with you.
Are you saying that the vast majority of programmers would agree with a
language that allowed the same variable or function name to exist in
different mixtures of upper and lower case, and for each combination of case
to have a different meaning? That would make it far easier to write
unmaintainable code. Would that be a good or a bad thing?
They would agree with a languages that allows the same variable or
function name to exist in different mixtures of case. After all, 'a' is
NOT the same character as 'A'.
They even agree that each combination of case could have a different
meaning.
But they do not agree that it makes it far easier to write
unmaintainable code. You can do that in ANY language.
In fact, I find mixed case makes code MORE maintainable.
But I digress. You're not worth any more of my time.
--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp. js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===
"Jerry Stuckle" <js*******@attg lobal.net> wrote in message
news:4L******** *************** *******@comcast .com... Tony Marston wrote:Neither I nor anyone else needs to "give a convincing reason...". The
bottom line is - that's the way things are, and it is supported by a vast
majority of programmers.
However, there have been other reasons mentioned in this topic. But I
suspect none of them are "good enough" for you.
And I haven't heard any good reasons why NOT to welcome it. Just saying
$Foo and $fOO shouldn't point to different variables doesn't make it. To
me they ARE different variables (although I wouldn't do this myself).
Why wouldn't you do it yourself? Because it would lead to confusing and
unmentionable code, that's why. Any language that allows a programmer to
create confusing and unmaintainable code is a BAD language in my book.
You can create confusing and unmaintainable code in ANY language - even
COBOL. Case sensitivity has NOTHING to do with it.
Case-sensitivity is the whole point of this thread. Any language that has a
feature which can be abused and which produces unmaintainable code is a BAD
language. Any language that allows the same variable or function name to
exist in different combinations of upper and lower case, and to give a
different meaning to each of those combinations, is a BAD language. Case is
irrelevant in all human languages, so it should be irrelevant in all
computer languages.
Why do most modern languages exclude the GOTO statement? Because it is
considered BAD.
Jus because some computer languages have case-sensitivity does not make it a
good idea It is just a bad idea that is being perpetuated against all logic
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