UTF-8 & Unicode

[EU citizen]

Do web pages have to be created in unicode in order to use UTF-8 encoding?
If so, can anyone name a free application which I can use under Windows 98
to create web pages?

[Henri Sivonen]

In article <cu**********@n ews-sop.inria.fr>,
Philippe Poulard <Ph************ ****@SPAMsophia .inria.fr> wrote:

this is theory

is there anybody who knows a parser that doesn't handle iso-8859-1
corresctly ?

I don't. I do, however, know a parser that does not support (by default
without extra work) ISO-8859-15, Windows-1252 or Shift-JIS: expat.

AFAIK, in *practice* the set of safe encodings is US-ASCII, ISO-8859-1
and UTF-8. In theory, it is UTF-8 and UTF-16. The intersection of
reality and theory is UTF-8.

--
Henri Sivonen
hs******@iki.fi
http://iki.fi/hsivonen/
Mozilla Web Author FAQ: http://mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html

[Richard Tobin]

In article <hs************ *************** *@news.dnainter net.net>,
Henri Sivonen <hs******@iki.f i> wrote:

That is not a safe conclusion. XML processors are only required to
support UTF-8 and UTF-16. Support for any other encoding is an XML
processor-specific extra feature. It follows that using any encoding
other than UTF-8 or UTF-16 is unsafe.
This is an exaggeration. You might as well say: XML processors are
not required to support any particular URI scheme, so referring to
a DTD at an HTTP URI is unsafe.
If communication fails, because
someone sent an XML document in an encoding other than UTF-8 or UTF-16,
the sender is to blame.

So phone them up and ask them to change it. Not every XML document has
to be instantly useful to everyone.

-- Richard

[Henri Sivonen]

In article <cu***********@ pc-news.cogsci.ed. ac.uk>,
ri*****@cogsci. ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) wrote:

You might as well say: XML processors are
not required to support any particular URI scheme, so referring to
a DTD at an HTTP URI is unsafe.

I consider external subsets on the Web harmful. Not because of HTTP URIs
but because non-validating processors are not required to process the
DTD and the usefulness of DTDs relative to their usual size is low.
Mozilla, for one, never dereferences an HTTP URI to retrieve an external
entity.

--
Henri Sivonen
hs******@iki.fi
http://iki.fi/hsivonen/
Mozilla Web Author FAQ: http://mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html

[Henri Sivonen]

In article <Pi************ *************** ***@ppepc56.ph. gla.ac.uk>,
"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla .ac.uk> wrote:

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005, Henri Sivonen wrote:

XML processors are only required to
support UTF-8 and UTF-16. Support for any other encoding is an XML
processor-specific extra feature.

But that's OK, since any plausible encoding produced by the editor can
be transformed by rote into utf-8 prior to subsequent XML processing
(that's the XML relevance).

Such conversion leads to bugs like this one:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=174351

--
Henri Sivonen
hs******@iki.fi
http://iki.fi/hsivonen/
Mozilla Web Author FAQ: http://mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html

[Andreas Prilop]

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005, Henri Sivonen wrote:

Newsgroups: comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html,comp.text.xml
You should set a F'up-To. I've done this and remark only
what's relevant to c.i.w.a.html.
AFAIK, in *practice* the set of safe encodings is US-ASCII, ISO-8859-1
and UTF-8. In theory, it is UTF-8 and UTF-16. The intersection of
reality and theory is UTF-8.

Google still doesn't support UTF-16 as can be seen from
http://www.google.com/search?q=U.T.F.1-6
Hence the recommendation in
http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/charset/checklist
to use only UTF-8 as Unicode encoding on the WWW.

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005, Henri Sivonen wrote:

"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla .ac.uk> wrote:

But that's OK, since any plausible encoding produced by the editor can
be transformed by rote into utf-8 prior to subsequent XML processing
(that's the XML relevance).

Such conversion leads to bugs like this one:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=174351

Does it? I'll have to ask you to explain that in more detail, please.
As far as I can see, the bug relates to a byte stream which is not
valid utf-8 - which by definition is therefore not utf-8 at all.

What I'm talking about is taking a properly-labelled and
properly-formed character stream in some known encoding, and
transcoding that into properly-formed utf-8 (with appropriate
re-labelling, of course).

[Henri Sivonen]

In article <Pi************ *************** ***@ppepc56.ph. gla.ac.uk>,
"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla .ac.uk> wrote:

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005, Henri Sivonen wrote:

"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla .ac.uk> wrote:

But that's OK, since any plausible encoding produced by the editor can
be transformed by rote into utf-8 prior to subsequent XML processing
(that's the XML relevance).

Such conversion leads to bugs like this one:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=174351

Does it? I'll have to ask you to explain that in more detail, please.
As far as I can see, the bug relates to a byte stream which is not
valid utf-8 - which by definition is therefore not utf-8 at all.

What I'm talking about is taking a properly-labelled and
properly-formed character stream in some known encoding, and
transcoding that into properly-formed utf-8 (with appropriate
re-labelling, of course).

The problem is that the XML spec is not only concerned with proper UTF-8
streams but also says what to do in improper cases. If the character
encoding conversion is decoupled from the XML processor, but this is
viewed as an implementation detail so that the combination of the
converter and actual XML processor is subjected to the conformance
requirements placed on XML processors, non-conformance ensues if the
converter is lenient, which they usually are.

--
Henri Sivonen
hs******@iki.fi
http://iki.fi/hsivonen/
Mozilla Web Author FAQ: http://mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Sat, 5 Feb 2005, Henri Sivonen wrote:

"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla .ac.uk> wrote:

> But that's OK, since any plausible encoding produced by the
> editor can be transformed by rote into utf-8 prior to
> subsequent XML processing (that's the XML relevance).

[...]
The problem is that the XML spec is not only concerned with proper
UTF-8 streams but also says what to do in improper cases. If the
character encoding conversion is decoupled from the XML processor,
but this is viewed as an implementation detail so that the
combination of the converter and actual XML processor is subjected
to the conformance requirements placed on XML processors,
non-conformance ensues if the converter is lenient, which they
usually are.

Thanks. I understand your point now.

I have this feeling that there's a lot of scope for practical utility
without running the risk of falling foul of this particular problem;
but I won't drag the argument out.

all the best