Job statistics XXVII : Java/J2EE uber alle????

[asj]

well, at least for the forseeable future, it looks like.

i've always thought mauricio aguilar was a loony for continuing to post
these job stats, when we all know C#/.NET jobs HAVE to go up sometime
and equalize as VB and other non-.NET microsoft tech jobs go down.

also, search engines can frequently be misused, so i tend to go with
guys who actually COUNT by eye if possible (as a guy below did).

here's the relevant stats:

"This list is picked up from dice.com on 11.04.2003.
"Numbers show job offerings in last 30 days with no other restrictions:

1. Java - 4355
2. J2EE - 4227
3. Unix - 4173
4. SQL - 3989
5. C++ - 3888
6. Oracle - 3676
7. ASP - 3309
8. Windows - 2940
9. C - 2587
10. SQL Server - 1916
11. Basic - 1874
12. VB - 1670
13. HTML - 1317
14. DBA - 1198
15. DB2 - 1021
16. Perl - 979
17. Mainframe - 874
18. PL/SQL - 790
19. Linux - 781
20. WebSphere - 688
21. PHP - 647
22. Sybase - 645
23. WebLogic - 545
24. Cisco - 478
25. C# - 358
26. Apache - 244
27. JMS - 105
28. Informix - 101
29. Tomcat - 77
30. Delphi - 74
31. MySQL - 60
32. .NET - 17

http://www.theserverside.com/discuss...hread_id=18821
http://www.javalobby.org/thread.jsp?...61&thread=8513
some fast comments:

(1) i am rather surprised by the high UNIX and low Linux/Windows
(2) the apparent low demand for mysql is surprising.
(3) the apparent death in the .NET hype will hopefully give way to more
objective views on the advantages (and disadvantages) of c# and .NET

here's one guy (C. Thompson) who actually COUNTED by eye instead of
using a search engine:

-------------------------------------------------

My *very* unscientific random examination of Dice listings for
developers in the Silicon Valley seems to show about 9 jobs requiring
Java/J233 for each listing that wanted C# or .Net. By 'examination' of
the listings, I mean actually reading the text of individual listings.
That squares with what I have been hearing from colleagues around the
Bay Area. It seemed like there was a lot of interest in the .Net
framework about 2 years ago, I know I spent some time boning up on it
myself 2 years ago. Since then the buzz has died down quite a bit. I
think this is due to two things: 1) After trying out simple programs in
C#, people seemed to conclude it was *so* similar to Java, that one
could defer any learning time to when it might be truly needed, and 2)
the Java universe is just too rich to ignore, especially the Open Source
offerings. When you can download a component or framework for *free*,
with no purchase justifications, license hassles, etc. that's pretty
hard to beat. Being able to download multiple competing Java solutions
in an afternoon, keep the one you like and delete the rest, is just too
good a deal to walk away from.

---------------------------------------------------

[asj]

is it just me, or is that a ridiculously high number for "UNIX", and low
numbers for Linux/Windows?
asj wrote:

well, at least for the forseeable future, it looks like.

i've always thought mauricio aguilar was a loony for continuing to post
these job stats, when we all know C#/.NET jobs HAVE to go up sometime
and equalize as VB and other non-.NET microsoft tech jobs go down.

also, search engines can frequently be misused, so i tend to go with
guys who actually COUNT by eye if possible (as a guy below did).

here's the relevant stats:

"This list is picked up from dice.com on 11.04.2003.
"Numbers show job offerings in last 30 days with no other restrictions:

1. Java - 4355
2. J2EE - 4227
3. Unix - 4173
4. SQL - 3989
5. C++ - 3888
6. Oracle - 3676
7. ASP - 3309
8. Windows - 2940
9. C - 2587
10. SQL Server - 1916
11. Basic - 1874
12. VB - 1670
13. HTML - 1317
14. DBA - 1198
15. DB2 - 1021
16. Perl - 979
17. Mainframe - 874
18. PL/SQL - 790
19. Linux - 781
20. WebSphere - 688
21. PHP - 647
22. Sybase - 645
23. WebLogic - 545
24. Cisco - 478
25. C# - 358
26. Apache - 244
27. JMS - 105
28. Informix - 101
29. Tomcat - 77
30. Delphi - 74
31. MySQL - 60
32. .NET - 17

http://www.theserverside.com/discuss...hread_id=18821
http://www.javalobby.org/thread.jsp?...61&thread=8513

some fast comments:

(1) i am rather surprised by the high UNIX and low Linux/Windows
(2) the apparent low demand for mysql is surprising.
(3) the apparent death in the .NET hype will hopefully give way to more
objective views on the advantages (and disadvantages) of c# and .NET

here's one guy (C. Thompson) who actually COUNTED by eye instead of
using a search engine:

-------------------------------------------------

My *very* unscientific random examination of Dice listings for
developers in the Silicon Valley seems to show about 9 jobs requiring
Java/J233 for each listing that wanted C# or .Net. By 'examination' of
the listings, I mean actually reading the text of individual listings.
That squares with what I have been hearing from colleagues around the
Bay Area. It seemed like there was a lot of interest in the .Net
framework about 2 years ago, I know I spent some time boning up on it
myself 2 years ago. Since then the buzz has died down quite a bit. I
think this is due to two things: 1) After trying out simple programs in
C#, people seemed to conclude it was *so* similar to Java, that one
could defer any learning time to when it might be truly needed, and 2)
the Java universe is just too rich to ignore, especially the Open Source
offerings. When you can download a component or framework for *free*,
with no purchase justifications, license hassles, etc. that's pretty
hard to beat. Being able to download multiple competing Java solutions
in an afternoon, keep the one you like and delete the rest, is just too
good a deal to walk away from.

---------------------------------------------------

[guy]

Well ,these stats are pretty worthless...
Given that the number of 'SQL' jobs against DB2 Sql Server
Oracle etc is approx 2 -3 times in each case its clear
that you are not comapring like for like. Most job specs
need multiple technologies eg VB / Oracle whereas this
just sems to be a counting exercise. Are the VB jobs VB or
VB.NET? (probably a mix I guess) What is a '.NET' job? C#?
VB.NET? who knows? Basically a load of meaningless figures.

-----Original Message-----
well, at least for the forseeable future, it looks like.

i've always thought mauricio aguilar was a loony for continuing to postthese job stats, when we all know C#/.NET jobs HAVE to go up sometimeand equalize as VB and other non-.NET microsoft tech jobs go down.
also, search engines can frequently be misused, so i tend to go withguys who actually COUNT by eye if possible (as a guy below did).
here's the relevant stats:

"This list is picked up from dice.com on 11.04.2003.
"Numbers show job offerings in last 30 days with no other restrictions:
1. Java - 4355
2. J2EE - 4227
3. Unix - 4173
4. SQL - 3989
5. C++ - 3888
6. Oracle - 3676
7. ASP - 3309
8. Windows - 2940
9. C - 2587
10. SQL Server - 1916
11. Basic - 1874
12. VB - 1670
13. HTML - 1317
14. DBA - 1198
15. DB2 - 1021
16. Perl - 979
17. Mainframe - 874
18. PL/SQL - 790
19. Linux - 781
20. WebSphere - 688
21. PHP - 647
22. Sybase - 645
23. WebLogic - 545
24. Cisco - 478
25. C# - 358
26. Apache - 244
27. JMS - 105
28. Informix - 101
29. Tomcat - 77
30. Delphi - 74
31. MySQL - 60
32. .NET - 17

http://www.theserverside.com/discussion/thread.jsp? thread_id=18821http://www.javalobby.org/thread.jsp?...61&thread=8513
some fast comments:

(1) i am rather surprised by the high UNIX and low Linux/Windows(2) the apparent low demand for mysql is surprising.
(3) the apparent death in the .NET hype will hopefully give way to moreobjective views on the advantages (and disadvantages) of c# and .NET
here's one guy (C. Thompson) who actually COUNTED by eye instead ofusing a search engine:

-------------------------------------------------

My *very* unscientific random examination of Dice listings fordevelopers in the Silicon Valley seems to show about 9 jobs requiringJava/J233 for each listing that wanted C# or .Net. By 'examination' ofthe listings, I mean actually reading the text of individual listings.That squares with what I have been hearing from colleagues around theBay Area. It seemed like there was a lot of interest in the .Netframework about 2 years ago, I know I spent some time boning up on itmyself 2 years ago. Since then the buzz has died down quite a bit. Ithink this is due to two things: 1) After trying out simple programs inC#, people seemed to conclude it was *so* similar to Java, that onecould defer any learning time to when it might be truly needed, and 2)the Java universe is just too rich to ignore, especially the Open Sourceofferings. When you can download a component or framework for *free*,with no purchase justifications, license hassles, etc. that's prettyhard to beat. Being able to download multiple competing Java solutionsin an afternoon, keep the one you like and delete the rest, is just toogood a deal to walk away from.

---------------------------------------------------
.

[Eddie]

Hi,

I wonder how acurate those figures are, unfortunatly I
cannot comment on the US market at all, but what I can
comment on is how things are here in oz...

There have not been a large amount of .net jobs
advertised on monster and many of the other web sites,
but there are still lots of .net related jobs. I run
through tmp/hudson global (the people who run monster..),
and picked up a .net contract that was not even
advertised.. Many of the people I work with have had
similar stories...

I assume the same thing happens for all good jobs, being
either .net/java or whatever...

Agents only list jobs when they do not have enough
applicants to foreward... Meaning that doing counts on
the number of advertised jobs is probably not an accurate
reflection on whats hot and whats not...

Sorry about the rant... just my 2 cents worth...

Have a nice day :)

-----Original Message-----
well, at least for the forseeable future, it looks like.

i've always thought mauricio aguilar was a loony for continuing to postthese job stats, when we all know C#/.NET jobs HAVE to go up sometimeand equalize as VB and other non-.NET microsoft tech jobs go down.
also, search engines can frequently be misused, so i tend to go withguys who actually COUNT by eye if possible (as a guy below did).
here's the relevant stats:

"This list is picked up from dice.com on 11.04.2003.
"Numbers show job offerings in last 30 days with no other restrictions:
1. Java - 4355
2. J2EE - 4227
3. Unix - 4173
4. SQL - 3989
5. C++ - 3888
6. Oracle - 3676
7. ASP - 3309
8. Windows - 2940
9. C - 2587
10. SQL Server - 1916
11. Basic - 1874
12. VB - 1670
13. HTML - 1317
14. DBA - 1198
15. DB2 - 1021
16. Perl - 979
17. Mainframe - 874
18. PL/SQL - 790
19. Linux - 781
20. WebSphere - 688
21. PHP - 647
22. Sybase - 645
23. WebLogic - 545
24. Cisco - 478
25. C# - 358
26. Apache - 244
27. JMS - 105
28. Informix - 101
29. Tomcat - 77
30. Delphi - 74
31. MySQL - 60
32. .NET - 17

http://www.theserverside.com/discussion/thread.jsp? thread_id=18821http://www.javalobby.org/thread.jsp?...61&thread=8513
some fast comments:

(1) i am rather surprised by the high UNIX and low Linux/Windows(2) the apparent low demand for mysql is surprising.
(3) the apparent death in the .NET hype will hopefully give way to moreobjective views on the advantages (and disadvantages) of c# and .NET
here's one guy (C. Thompson) who actually COUNTED by eye instead ofusing a search engine:

-------------------------------------------------

My *very* unscientific random examination of Dice listings fordevelopers in the Silicon Valley seems to show about 9 jobs requiringJava/J233 for each listing that wanted C# or .Net. By 'examination' ofthe listings, I mean actually reading the text of individual listings.That squares with what I have been hearing from colleagues around theBay Area. It seemed like there was a lot of interest in the .Netframework about 2 years ago, I know I spent some time boning up on itmyself 2 years ago. Since then the buzz has died down quite a bit. Ithink this is due to two things: 1) After trying out simple programs inC#, people seemed to conclude it was *so* similar to Java, that onecould defer any learning time to when it might be truly needed, and 2)the Java universe is just too rich to ignore, especially the Open Sourceofferings. When you can download a component or framework for *free*,with no purchase justifications, license hassles, etc. that's prettyhard to beat. Being able to download multiple competing Java solutionsin an afternoon, keep the one you like and delete the rest, is just toogood a deal to walk away from.

---------------------------------------------------
.

[john bailo]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 01:26:20 -0400, asj wrote:

"This list is picked up from dice.com on 11.04.2003.
"Numbers show job offerings in last 30 days with no other restrictions:

1. Java - 4355
2. J2EE - 4227
3. Unix - 4173
4. SQL - 3989

bottom line: dotnet failed to stop java

too old, too late, not enough

[asj]

Dave Leigh wrote:

Oh, I'd agree with that. Once you're at that point I'd say it's time to
move on. On my current contract I'm doing mostly pure project management,
but I'd have to say my favorite position has always been technical lead...
you get to control the 'shape' of the app and assign tasks, and can reserve
enough choice bits for yourself to keep your hand in.

well, i was sorting through some javablogs, and what do you know, i saw
this interesting post:

http://www.manageability.org/blog/st...you_want_to_be

"Tim Bray has a very insightful piece about the economics of being a
"Sharecropp er". Unfortunately, he digresses and talks a lot about the
value of simplified interfaces."

"Strategica lly speaking a software product developer isn't in a good
position if he's a sharecropper. However, it doesn't mean it's a bad
tactic. Many times its the only way to get a start. Not everyone has
the money to buy a farm when they start out. The key though is to
remember as a sharecropper you're working on borrowed time."

[Adam Maass]

"asj" <as*@xzxx.com > wrote in message news:3F******** ***@xzxx.com...

Rob Tillie wrote:

Hehe, but saying he counted it himself doesn't mean that it is a good
statistical representation for the global marketplace.
From which country was it?

Greetz,
-- Rob.

well, silicon valley is in the usa, but i believe there are rumors
california will secede from the union once Arnold
Schwarzenegger rises to power, and form the "People's Awesome Republic
of California".

Political commentary recently (jokingly) suggested that the Bay Area seceed
from the US and join Canada.

-- Adam Maass

[Tim Tyler]

In comp.lang.java. advocacy john bailo <ja*****@earthl ink.net> wrote:

: bottom line: dotnet failed to stop java

: too old, too late, not enough

Microsoft aren't out of the race yet.

They still have a lot of power associated with Windows - and a lot of cash.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ ti*@tt1.org

[john bailo]

On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:44:32 +0000, Tim Tyler wrote:

In comp.lang.java. advocacy john bailo <ja*****@earthl ink.net> wrote:

: bottom line: dotnet failed to stop java

: too old, too late, not enough

Microsoft aren't out of the race yet.

They still have a lot of power associated with Windows - and a lot of cash.

not any more, basically the current microsoft strategy is:

0. Admit defeat as far as growing market share
1. Increase licensing fees on existing, locked in customers
2. Pay for FUD to discredit Linux ( SCO, Ballmer )
3. Extract as much revenue legally via 'dividends' (the majority of which
go to the 6 or so people who own it )
4. Close shop in 3 years.

[Tim Tyler]

In comp.lang.java. advocacy john bailo <ja*****@earthl ink.net> wrote:
: On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:44:32 +0000, Tim Tyler wrote:
:> In comp.lang.java. advocacy john bailo <ja*****@earthl ink.net> wrote:

:> : bottom line: dotnet failed to stop java
:>
:> : too old, too late, not enough
:>
:> Microsoft aren't out of the race yet.
:>
:> They still have a lot of power associated with Windows - and a lot of cash.

: not any more, basically the current microsoft strategy is:

: 0. Admit defeat as far as growing market share
: 1. Increase licensing fees on existing, locked in customers
: 2. Pay for FUD to discredit Linux ( SCO, Ballmer )
: 3. Extract as much revenue legally via 'dividends' (the majority of which
: go to the 6 or so people who own it )
: 4. Close shop in 3 years.

Ha - would that it were so.

As it is your sooth-saying role might gain credibililty if it was a bit
more realistic.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ ti*@tt1.org