VB.net or C#.net

[Terry]

Hi, I need some feedback.
We are converting to .Net and we are trying to decide on whether to use
VB.net or C#.net.
As far as our current systems, they will probably be rewritten in ASP.Net.
I have looked into both and I don't see anything that would scream out to
use one or the other. So at this point, it is still a toss up.
However, I want to look at the two languages from a different perspective.
That is from a career point of view.
Which has the larger install base. Which has more demand. Are developers in
one paid more than the other.

Any help would be appreciated.
Terry

[Cablewizard]

I must agree that VB.Net is really so different from VB6 that maybe it should
have been named something different. Maybe B#, but I suppose musically speaking
that would make it the equivalent of C and that would have caused an uproar. Cb
would proly get it laughed at. Maybe V#?
I have also noticed quite a lot of VB6 programmers trying to make the switch
are just plain overwhelmed by VB.Net. I know I was.
FYI, to be CLS compliant I believe the sample of operator overloading should be:
Dim gamma as MyClass = MyClass.op_Addi tion(foo, bar)
But it is all symantics. Sadly, pre-Whidby VB.Net won't even honor the operators
on built-in classes/structures.
Even simple things like Point require this syntax.
pt2 = Point.op_Additi on(pt, sz) :-(

I was so poorly disappointed that VB.Net 2002/2003 was not what I thought it was
going to be. Really sounds like Whidby just might be what I've been waiting for,
but I will need to wait and see.

So, I fully agree with everything you have said. However, IMHO I have found
VB.Net to be a quite powerful and respectable language. More so than VB6, which
I also feel is awesome. But give me VB syntax with all the capabilities of Cxx,
and I'll be happy.

Gerald

"Thomas" <re**********@a nywhere.com> wrote in message
news:%2******** ********@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..

I fully disagree with people that say that VB.NET 2002/2003 is equivalent to
C#.NET 2002/2003. I was originally a high level VB6 developer. When I first
look at the original betas of .NET, I chose C# for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, Microsoft might as well have called VB.NET, "Fred". Only simple
syntatic similarities exist between VB6 and VB.NET. Other than that, they
are very different products. Secondly, VB.NET, for some idiotic reason, was
limited compared to C#. Silly things like unsigned integers were not
included. Lastly, as I began developing with C#, I discovered that VB.NET
had/has a HUGE limitation. VB.NET 2002/2003 cannot use operator nor
conversion overloads built in C#. That means if you build classes that are
to be used by other developers, those other developers cannot use VB.NET
either because they have to hack their code to death to utilize conversion
and operator overloads. For example:

Suppose someone in C# builds a couple of classes and overloads the "+"
operator. You could write the following:

MyClass foo = new MyClass();
MyClass bar = new MyClass();
MyClass gamma = foo + bar;

In VB.NET, they would have to write something like (not sure the exact
syntax):

Dim foo as MyClass = new MyClass();
Dim bar as MyClass = new MyClass();
Dim gamma as MyClass;

gamma = foo operator+ bar;

Insanity that VB.NET 2002/2003 cannot even *use* overloads built and
compiled in C#. So, prior to Whidbey, I would say that if you want to build
nothing but "Hello World" apps, you could use VB.NET, otherwise use C#. Note
that this opinion has absolutely nothing to do with performance which is the
same between VB.NET and C#.

Whidbey changes all that. Microsoft has added most of the new goodies to
VB.NET as well as C#. In addition, VB.NET 2005 includes operator overloads
so, theoretically, VB.NET developers can use components with operator
overloads built in C#. I'm not yet sure if VB.NET can use conversion
overloads written in C#.


Thomas

"Terry" <xx************ @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e8******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...

Hi, I need some feedback.
We are converting to .Net and we are trying to decide on whether to use
VB.net or C#.net.
As far as our current systems, they will probably be rewritten in ASP.Net.
I have looked into both and I don't see anything that would scream out to
use one or the other. So at this point, it is still a toss up.
However, I want to look at the two languages from a different perspective.
That is from a career point of view.
Which has the larger install base. Which has more demand. Are developers

in

one paid more than the other.

Any help would be appreciated.
Terry

[Cor Ligthert]

Hi Thomas,

Is overloading the operator that important for you that your complete
message is bassed on that, C# cannot use optional parameters as with VBNet
however that are differences in the marge of a thousands of the promilage
of the use in the world in my opinion.

Just my thought,

Cor

[Thomas]

You asked, "Is operator overloading that important?" My answer, yes. The
primary reason is if you are building business classes that will be reused
by other developers, you want to define what >, <, etc do in the business
class. Optional parameters are really a convenience of method calling.
However, operator overloads present a serious potential for mistake by other
developers. For example, if developers do this:

MyClass foo;
MyClass bar;

if (foo == bar)
//do work

If MyClass represents a business object that has pulled data from the
database, this may indeed represent the same record in the db, but obviously
won't represent the same address in memory and thus will return false.
That's an error that will compile and may be difficult to catch.

I would put conversion overloads in the same category as optional
parameters. They are both contrivances of convenience. They save the
developer a little code. Requiring developers to explicitedly cast
everything, while inconvenient, won't lead to logic errors. Requiring C#
developers to find the overload that matches the optional arg signature they
want, while annoying, doesn't really produce logic errors.

Thomas
"Cor Ligthert" <no**********@p lanet.nl> wrote in message
news:uT******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP10.phx.gbl...

Hi Thomas,

Is overloading the operator that important for you that your complete
message is bassed on that, C# cannot use optional parameters as with VBNet
however that are differences in the marge of a thousands of the promilage of the use in the world in my opinion.

Just my thought,

Cor

[Rob Windsor [MVP]]

Hi Thomas,

A few things. First, I know I've heard one of the VB team members (I think
it was Paul Vick or Amanda Silver on .NET Rocks!) say that VB.NET was going
to have unsinged numeric types but they did not implement because the C#
team had decided not to. Then the C# team changed their mind and added them
very late, too late for the VB team to included them.

Secondly, VB.NET 1.0 and 1.1 can use overloaded operators. The syntax isn't
the most lovely but it works. From your example you would use: gamma =
foo.op_Addition (bar)

Lastly, I don't think the fact that VB.NET has a not-so-elegant way of
handling operator overloading means that it's only good for "Hello World"
apps. There are things that are nicer to do in C# and there are things that
are nicer to do in VB.NET (interop with Office apps being the classic
example), but there are *very* few things that one language can do that the
other can't.

--
Rob Windsor [MVP-VB]
G6 Consulting
Toronto, Canada
"Thomas" <re**********@a nywhere.com> wrote in message
news:%2******** ********@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..

I fully disagree with people that say that VB.NET 2002/2003 is equivalent to C#.NET 2002/2003. I was originally a high level VB6 developer. When I first look at the original betas of .NET, I chose C# for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, Microsoft might as well have called VB.NET, "Fred". Only simple
syntatic similarities exist between VB6 and VB.NET. Other than that, they
are very different products. Secondly, VB.NET, for some idiotic reason, was limited compared to C#. Silly things like unsigned integers were not
included. Lastly, as I began developing with C#, I discovered that VB.NET
had/has a HUGE limitation. VB.NET 2002/2003 cannot use operator nor
conversion overloads built in C#. That means if you build classes that are
to be used by other developers, those other developers cannot use VB.NET
either because they have to hack their code to death to utilize conversion
and operator overloads. For example:

Suppose someone in C# builds a couple of classes and overloads the "+"
operator. You could write the following:

MyClass foo = new MyClass();
MyClass bar = new MyClass();
MyClass gamma = foo + bar;

In VB.NET, they would have to write something like (not sure the exact
syntax):

Dim foo as MyClass = new MyClass();
Dim bar as MyClass = new MyClass();
Dim gamma as MyClass;

gamma = foo operator+ bar;

Insanity that VB.NET 2002/2003 cannot even *use* overloads built and
compiled in C#. So, prior to Whidbey, I would say that if you want to build nothing but "Hello World" apps, you could use VB.NET, otherwise use C#. Note that this opinion has absolutely nothing to do with performance which is the same between VB.NET and C#.

Whidbey changes all that. Microsoft has added most of the new goodies to
VB.NET as well as C#. In addition, VB.NET 2005 includes operator overloads
so, theoretically, VB.NET developers can use components with operator
overloads built in C#. I'm not yet sure if VB.NET can use conversion
overloads written in C#.


Thomas

"Terry" <xx************ @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e8******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...

Hi, I need some feedback.
We are converting to .Net and we are trying to decide on whether to use
VB.net or C#.net.
As far as our current systems, they will probably be rewritten in ASP.Net. I have looked into both and I don't see anything that would scream out to use one or the other. So at this point, it is still a toss up.
However, I want to look at the two languages from a different perspective. That is from a career point of view.
Which has the larger install base. Which has more demand. Are developers

in

one paid more than the other.

Any help would be appreciated.
Terry

[Tom Dacon]

> apps. There are things that are nicer to do in C# and there are things
that

are nicer to do in VB.NET (interop with Office apps being the classic
example), but there are *very* few things that one language can do that the other can't.

What, in your opinion, makes VB.Net nicer for interop with Office apps? I'm
doing some of it in a VB.Net application of my own, but I didn't notice
anything about doing it in VB that seemed any different or easier than it
would have been if I'd been doing it in C#. Add a reference to the Outlook
11.0 Object Library, do a using for the namespace, and hi ho off we go. Did
I miss something important?

Thanks,
Tom Dacon
Dacon Software Consulting

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Tom Dacon <td****@communi ty.nospam> wrote:

apps. There are things that are nicer to do in C# and there are things

that

are nicer to do in VB.NET (interop with Office apps being the classic
example), but there are *very* few things that one language can do that

the

other can't.

What, in your opinion, makes VB.Net nicer for interop with Office apps? I'm
doing some of it in a VB.Net application of my own, but I didn't notice
anything about doing it in VB that seemed any different or easier than it
would have been if I'd been doing it in C#. Add a reference to the Outlook
11.0 Object Library, do a using for the namespace, and hi ho off we go. Did
I miss something important?

I gather optional parameters and late binding can make interop with
Office significantly easier. That's just what I've heard though - I
haven't done any myself.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[Thomas]

See inline below...

Secondly, VB.NET 1.0 and 1.1 can use overloaded operators. The syntax
isn't
the most lovely but it works. From your example you would use: gamma =
foo.op_Addition (bar)
I wish people would get in the habit of assuming that someone else will use
their code. Technically, yes VB can use operator overloads. However, that
assumes that the VB developer knows they exist. The odds are much higher
that the VB developer will not know they are there and try to wire up their
own special function that does the same thing as the overload. Of course,
later down the line it will be far from obvious why a change in the overload
logic doesn't affect the VB developer's code.

Lastly, I don't think the fact that VB.NET has a not-so-elegant way of
handling operator overloading means that it's only good for "Hello World"
apps.
IMHO, the statement "isn't the most lovely but it works" is the same as "a
not-so-elegant way" is the same as "insane vbonics solution that will cause
nasty hard-to-detect bugs when people use my code".

Think of the scenario: you want to build 1.x components that will be used by
other developers in an enterprise. If you use C#, your developers can easily
utilize a greater percentage of the CLR. In addition, you make operator
overloads such that your GUI developers do not even need to know they exist.

If you have some developers using VB in your company, then you have to code
everything to the CLS and you lose the ability to create *seemless* operator
overloads.

There are things that are nicer to do in C# and there are things that
are nicer to do in VB.NET (interop with Office apps being the classic
example), but there are *very* few things that one language can do that
the
other can't.
I completely agree that there are somethings that are easier to do in
VB.NET. However, assuming that your VB people will use your C# operator
overloads is a bug waiting to happen.

With all that said, I still can't fathom why VB.NET cannot *use* operator
overloads seemlessly. I can understand why VB developers might not want
them, but I fail to understand why VB.NET can't use them if they are in a
compiled C# dll. Doesn't it read the MSIL and see that C# has overloaded the
"+" operator?

Thomas


--
Rob Windsor [MVP-VB]
G6 Consulting
Toronto, Canada
"Thomas" <re**********@a nywhere.com> wrote in message
news:%2******** ********@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..

I fully disagree with people that say that VB.NET 2002/2003 is equivalent

to

C#.NET 2002/2003. I was originally a high level VB6 developer. When I

first

look at the original betas of .NET, I chose C# for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, Microsoft might as well have called VB.NET, "Fred". Only simple
syntatic similarities exist between VB6 and VB.NET. Other than that, they
are very different products. Secondly, VB.NET, for some idiotic reason,

was

limited compared to C#. Silly things like unsigned integers were not
included. Lastly, as I began developing with C#, I discovered that VB.NET
had/has a HUGE limitation. VB.NET 2002/2003 cannot use operator nor
conversion overloads built in C#. That means if you build classes that
are
to be used by other developers, those other developers cannot use VB.NET
either because they have to hack their code to death to utilize
conversion
and operator overloads. For example:

Suppose someone in C# builds a couple of classes and overloads the "+"
operator. You could write the following:

MyClass foo = new MyClass();
MyClass bar = new MyClass();
MyClass gamma = foo + bar;

In VB.NET, they would have to write something like (not sure the exact
syntax):

Dim foo as MyClass = new MyClass();
Dim bar as MyClass = new MyClass();
Dim gamma as MyClass;

gamma = foo operator+ bar;

Insanity that VB.NET 2002/2003 cannot even *use* overloads built and
compiled in C#. So, prior to Whidbey, I would say that if you want to

build

nothing but "Hello World" apps, you could use VB.NET, otherwise use C#.

Note

that this opinion has absolutely nothing to do with performance which is

the

same between VB.NET and C#.

Whidbey changes all that. Microsoft has added most of the new goodies to
VB.NET as well as C#. In addition, VB.NET 2005 includes operator
overloads
so, theoretically, VB.NET developers can use components with operator
overloads built in C#. I'm not yet sure if VB.NET can use conversion
overloads written in C#.


Thomas

"Terry" <xx************ @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e8******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...

> Hi, I need some feedback.
> We are converting to .Net and we are trying to decide on whether to use
> VB.net or C#.net.
> As far as our current systems, they will probably be rewritten in ASP.Net. > I have looked into both and I don't see anything that would scream out to > use one or the other. So at this point, it is still a toss up.
> However, I want to look at the two languages from a different perspective. > That is from a career point of view.
> Which has the larger install base. Which has more demand. Are
> developers

in

> one paid more than the other.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
> Terry
>
>