I was just wondering. After all these years of working on
Visual C++, why hasn't Microsoft yet seen fit to fully
implement the template portion of the C++ standard when so
many other vendors, both free and commercial, have, or at
least have come very close to doing so. I write code in
pure C++ and I so often have to ifdef the heck out of my
code just to get it to work in Visual C++.
Here is a simple example of what I mean:
#ifdef _WIN32
template<typena me T,
template<typena me Element,
typename Alloc = std::allocator< ELEM> >
class Container = std::deque >
class Stack
{
Container<T,std ::allocator<T> > m_elems;
#else
template<typena me T,
template<typena me Element,
typename = std::allocator< ELEM> >
class Container = std::deque >
class Stack
{
Container<T> m_elems;
#endif
Note how under the _WIN32 code I need to name Alloc rather
than just setting the second typename's default, and of
course in the body, VC++ ignores the default an I have to
explicitly define Container with the element type and the
allocator type. This is just messy.
So, does anyone know why Microsoft just hasn't hired a
template expert to implement templates correctly? I
suppose that they are just trying to kill C++ as well as
everything not invented by them. Ah well. It'll be a C#
world after all. Ugggg.
Thomas J. Clancy
Nov 16 '05
13  1505 
"Brandon Bray [MSFT]" <br******@onlin e.microsoft.com > wrote: Hendrik Schober wrote: I've never used Loki. However, I'm doing some
template metaprogramming myself nowadays (which
does include some stuff I learned from MCD) and
I do run into ICEs. I can surely imagine that,
using Loki, one runs into compiler bugs as well.
Hi Hendrik,
As Ronald said, we harnessed Loki before we shipped VC7.1. The version
available built without error.
And what does that mean? You can parse the
headers? No big deal in this millenium, when
you don't even lookup non-dependend names.
It's not that VC71 ICEs with simple or even
more complicated templates. But when you use
stuff like this all the time, you'll find
errors.
It is possible that changes made to Loki
since 7.1 shipped now cause errors, but looking through our bug database
there are no active or postponed issues regarding Loki.
I don't know, since I don't use Loki. But
since Loki uses quite advanced template
stuff, I'm sure using it one would run
into errors similar to the ones I find.
If you are coming across ICEs on your own, they really need to be reported.
Otherwise, it makes it impossible to fix them.
If I can get something to reproduce, I post
it here. Sometimes, however, I cannot find
the time to cut it down to a repro case or
even to find out whether it's my fault (and
one of the other compilers I use) or VC's.
Then I simply need something that works ASAP.
If these are bugs, you won't hear them from
me.
(Also as someone else already has complained
about, I have no idea where the bugs should
go offically. All I can find is the payed
support. Yes, I know that you won't charge
if I found a real bug in your product. But
my boss isn't going to take this risc twice
a month. I think that's the same with other
bosses. So whoever doesn't use these newsgroup
won't report bugs that way, no matter how
serious they are.
I really think there should be an easier way
to report bugs. Because that will help you to
fix your product.)
Cheerio!
Prost! <g>
Brandon Bray Visual C++ Compiler
Schobi
-- Sp******@gmx.de is never read
I'm Schobi at suespammers org
"And why should I know better by now/When I'm old enough not to?"
Beth Orton
Patrik Ellren wrote: This might not be relevant to your discussion, but one area where I feel
you can get better is to provide a simple method of reporting bugs and
browsing already reported ones.
Hi Patrik,
I certainly understand your desire. I have certainly advocated this to as
many people as I can. There are plans to improve this in future products (we
actually have an entire team devoted to this kind of thing). I'm sure over
time it will get much better.
The best advice I have for now is to get involved with beta releases as soon
as possible. The sooner a bug is reported in a beta, the easier it is for us
to fix it.
Thanks for providing your feedback. Cheerio!
--
Brandon Bray Visual C++ Compiler
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
Brandon Bray [MSFT] wrote: Patrik Ellren wrote: This might not be relevant to your discussion, but one area where I
feel you can get better is to provide a simple method of reporting
bugs and browsing already reported ones.
Hi Patrik,
I certainly understand your desire. I have certainly advocated this
to as many people as I can. There are plans to improve this in future
products (we actually have an entire team devoted to this kind of
thing). I'm sure over time it will get much better.
The best advice I have for now is to get involved with beta releases
as soon as possible. The sooner a bug is reported in a beta, the
easier it is for us to fix it.
To add to what Brandon said -
Many regulars on these ngs (including many MVPs and all VC team members)
will be participating in any beta programs that are ongoing - so posting on
the newsgroups is more effective than you might think at getting bugs
noticed. I, and I assume many others, try to keep an eye out for things
reported on the ngs about current product that may be applicable to ongoing
beta programs. Whever I see such a posting, if I can reproduce the problem
with whatever beta I might have access to, I'll report the bug to the beta
program.
Of course, getting involved with the beta programs yourself offers you a
more direct route into the process. Knowledgebase article 33814 outlines
the process by which you can apply to be a beta tester. http://support.microsoft.com/default...kb;en-us;33814
-cd
"Carl Daniel [VC++ MVP]" <cp******@nospa m.mvps.org> wrote: [...] I, and I assume many others, try to keep an eye out for things
reported on the ngs about current product that may be applicable to ongoing
beta programs. Whever I see such a posting, if I can reproduce the problem
with whatever beta I might have access to, I'll report the bug to the beta
program.
This is all very great and I know that I own a
lot to the MVPs here. (I'm sure you reproduced
and reported 90% of all the issues I ever posted
here.)
I know that here is a great place to report bugs.
However, if you just think of how many copies of
VC are sold, and how many people post here, you
will have to agree that the overwhelming majority
of VC users never show up here. (Actually, that
is pretty good, as I have problems with this
group's posting volume anyway...)
All those users, if they find a problem, and try
to report it, either find these newsgroups, but
don't want to post, or don't find anything at
all.
Thinking of how I searched the website before I
found these groups, I suspect they never find
anything but the payed-per-incidence service and
give up.
What I expect is, on the VC website, a link
"Report bug", that leads to a form which I can
fill in, hit the sent button, and get an ID back,
that I can then use to track the bug's status
later on. And if the bug's status ever says
"can't reproduce" or something ugly, I need a
link right there that allows me to provide
further information (or probably will get me
into contact with a human beeing) to re-open
the bug.
Heck, this all could probably even be found in
VS' help menu!
I know that this could bring in a lot of false
reports and I know that this is a problem.
However, we're not talking Word or Excel here.
This is a product for developers, and I'd suspect
that the majority of them would know what a bug
report should be.
[...]
-cd
Schobi
-- Sp******@gmx.de is never read
I'm Schobi at suespammers org
"And why should I know better by now/When I'm old enough not to?"
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