MCSD certification - is it still necessary to land a job?

[Lewis Lang]

MCSD certification - is it still necessary to land a job? ... or, is
it just a money-maker? Is it worth spending the money on the books and
the exam?

Thanks,

Lewis Lang

[Wayne]

not only do the books promote bad practice, but it's painfully obvious that
the author nor the editors, actually went through the exercise in the book,
I've just spent over an hr tracking down a bug in the code in the book, but
the code on the CD is correct.

Starting to wonder if it's even worth doing this to satisfy management.


"Wayne" <Me******@commu nity.nospam> wrote in message
news:e4******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...

What's really sad is how wrong some of the books are. Currently I am looking at getting a cert, I've got all the books (thank you Microsoft). However,
when reading through them I've noticed that the examples are not always the "BEST PRACTICE". Section of code I just hit has you typing the same 4 lines of code in two places. This is just wrong, if you are getting the books to
learn how to program properly shouldn't the examples be done properly?

Most people learn by example, and if the books you use to get your cert
aren't the best examples how can you really expect the cert to be worth
anything in the long run, except by HR and Management as stated in a
previous comment, which is my want to get the cert. I am also pick up little tidbits of useful info here and there along the way, but I don't ever under estimate the purpose of the book as I go, which is to get you to pass a
test.
--
Thanks
Wayne Sepega
Jacksonville, Fl
"When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute and it's longer than any hour.
That's relativity." - Albert Einstein

"Samuel R. Neff" <bl****@newsgro up.nospam> wrote in message
news:vv******** *************** *********@4ax.c om...

We're currently hiring for a few .NET development positions and none
of the resumes we've received were from people with .NET certification
(some older certifications) . If someone did have certification we
would value it and be more likely to give them an interview.

My fealing is certification can't hurt (unless you almost fail and
still say you're certified and the interviewer asks your score--if you
don't do well, don't list that you're certified). So always take the
exam. Whether or not you spend extra on books and learning is
optional, you can take the exam without this but also the books
presumably would help make you a better .NET programmer if you don't
already know the material.

My $0.02.

Sam

BTW, there was something wrong with your original post which may be
why there were no follow-ups. Here's the original headers:

Newsgroups: alt.certificati on.mcsd, microsoft.publi c.cert.exam.mcs d,
microsoft.publi c.dotnet.langua ges.csharp,
microsoft.publi c.dotnet.langua ges.vb, microsoft.publi c.dotnet.genera l

Followup-To: rec.photo.digit al, rec.photo.equip ment.35mm

So maybe you have some replies in the photo groups? :-)
BTW, if anyone is in Washington DC metro area and would like to apply
for a mid to senior level VB.NET position (WinForms + Web Services,
some possibility of aspx in future) e-mail me. sam_at_blinex_c om
On 6 Feb 2005 00:11:42 -0800, "Lewis Lang" <co*******@idxc .org> wrote:

MCSD certification - is it still necessary to land a job? ... or, is
it just a money-maker? Is it worth spending the money on the books and
the exam?

Thanks,

Lewis Lang

[maxthegold]

We just got our first resume in for someone that has MCSD. In this
case the person actually took 3 months off work to study for the MCSD
exams (or at least that's what the resume says). Very bad sign.
Hurt the applicant in this case...

Sam

I would be interested to know why this was considered to be a "very bad
sign"?
--
Regards,
Max.

[RCS]

I'm not the OP here, but *I* would say that's a bad sign, because that tells
me the person can't multi-task. Most dedicated people have multiple things
going on thier life and "find a way" to do it all. There is absolutely no
need to quit working - and for 3 MONTHS to prepare for an exam!!

In other words, that expression "If you want something done, ask a busy
person" - applies, I think. A busy person would find time, over that 3
months to get some studying in, maybe they'd take a couple 3-day weekends
even, but to be out of work for 3 months is professional suicide. As a
developer, your PRIMARY focus should be (in my opinion):

A) Whatever your expertise is, be great at it. Stay great at it.
B) Be good at your secondary stuff. Work to be great at it.
C) Keep up with the latest technology (be familiar enough to know whether
it's worth pursing or not)
D) Stay agile. Always work on staying sharp with both your skills and with
your problem-solving.

It takes constant work to maintain - nevermind build your career. To me,
taking 3 months off for anything - is going to severely impact every one of
these objectives. It also is telling about your personality, are you going
to be high maintenance? If I give you a big project - are you going to need
to take a sabatical because the stress is just "too much"? What if I give
you TWO important projects?

On the flip side, if someone has a day job *AND* studied for 3 months for an
exam - THAT would be a "very good sign", because they are capable of
multi-tasking and managing thier life. Shows they aren't afraid of work and
shows they are ambitious.
"maxthegold " <ma*@the.gold.c om> wrote in message
news:a6******** *************** *******@ghytred .com...

We just got our first resume in for someone that has MCSD. In this
case the person actually took 3 months off work to study for the MCSD
exams (or at least that's what the resume says). Very bad sign.
Hurt the applicant in this case...

Sam

I would be interested to know why this was considered to be a "very bad
sign"?
--
Regards,
Max.

[Mosaic]

What would be the harm in finding out why he/sho chose to do things this way?
Perhaps the applicant was so committed to stay up to date that he/she was
prepared to take this (admittedly) big risk and take 5 tests in three months.
If .NET was new material and if the person did not cheat, then three months
is not bad at all.

[Andy O'Neill]

"Mosaic" <Mo****@discuss ions.microsoft. com> wrote in message
news:85******** *************** ***********@mic rosoft.com...

What would be the harm in finding out why he/sho chose to do things this
way?
Perhaps the applicant was so committed to stay up to date that he/she was
prepared to take this (admittedly) big risk and take 5 tests in three
months.
If .NET was new material and if the person did not cheat, then three
months
is not bad at all.

I want to keep up to date, I buy books and read.
If I wanted to start up a software house and needed two people with mcsd
then I'd maybe take 3months off to swot.

I tend not to discount people too quickly just based on the odd thing on
their CV.
If they look like they have the experience I telephone interview.
If their technical abilities seem OK and their personality comes over OK
then I get them in for a chat.

Telephone interviewing saves a lot of time.

--
Regards,
Andy O'Neill

[Andy O'Neill]

"RCS" <rs****@gmail.c om> wrote in message
news:qn******** *******@newssvr 33.news.prodigy .com...

I'm not defending books like that by any means, but many times - they take
the simple route, just for claritys sake. For example, a book may have:

string strResult = "";
if ( IsEnabled )
strResult = "Yes"
else
strResult = "No";

when you could do this, instead:

string strResult = (IsEnabled) ? "Yes" : "No";

So a purist would say it'd be more appropriate to do it the second way,
but for someone just starting out, that is a lot of stuff going on in one
line: declaring a variable, initializing it, evaluating an expression, a
ternary expression (spelling?)..

I'd take clarity over brevity any day of the week.

So I don't think it'd be a "purist" who chose the second way.

I associate the sort of code in that second example with someone who's bored
enough to think of the shortest bit of code they can write.
To me, that's a bad sign.
Bored programmers start writing weird bits of code just to try stuff out and
do things in different ways.
That's bad.

Version one is clear.
Anyone can see what it does immediately.
Version two you have to think about.
I would rather someone maintaing a piece of code think about some more
important part of the system than decoding smart-alec code.
Keep it simple.

--
Regards,
Andy O'Neill

[Samuel R. Neff]

The test is meant to assess your skills as a programmer. Ideally,
someone who is a .NET programmer and works in the technologies being
tested on a regular basis should be able to pass the test without any
preparation.

Because the MCSD exams have a tendency to test on things that are less
used or never used, some studying is required. But 3 months of
dedicated studying is overkill.

My $0.02 (and most people here disagree with me, so it's probably only
with $0.01 at best)

Sam
On 09 Feb 2005 12:29:03 +1100, maxthegold <ma*@the.gold.c om> wrote:

We just got our first resume in for someone that has MCSD. In this
case the person actually took 3 months off work to study for the MCSD
exams (or at least that's what the resume says). Very bad sign.
Hurt the applicant in this case...

Sam

I would be interested to know why this was considered to be a "very bad
sign"?

B-Line is now hiring one VB.NET developer for
WinForms + WebServices position with ASPX in future.
Seaking mid to senior level developer. For
information or to apply e-mail sam_blinex_com.

[UAError]

"RCS" <rs****@gmail.c om> wrote:

I'm not the OP here, but *I* would say that's a bad sign, because that tells
me the person can't multi-task. Most dedicated people have multiple things
going on thier life and "find a way" to do it all.
Sure that's reality - which makes it even more ironic that
the 70-300 guides clearly outlines to always list
"resources" that are not dedicated 100% to a project as a
project risk. So a high risk project is one where nobody is
dedicated 100% - now that may explain a few things...

In some downsized organizations everybody is on N projects
which can get so bad, priorities or not, that nothing is
being accomplished and everybody is just thrashing. On the
other hand some people are so good at multitasking their
private life that work is getting the lowest priority.

Dedicated persons know their limits and "simplify life" if
it becomes necessary. Multi-tasking is good ... to a point,
you still only get to spend every minute once.
There is absolutely no need to quit working
Maybe the "quitting" wasn't a choice. Or the quitting was a
result of continuous 60+ hours per week with no overtime pay
in a dead-end environment.
and for 3 MONTHS to prepare for an exam!!

For MCSD.NET thats 5 exams.
'The end result is that the majority of people actively
developing software are typically not the ones best qualified
to do it, and they don't even know it.'
Scott W. Ambler, 'Agile Modeling', p.5

[UAError]

Samuel R. Neff <bl****@newsgro up.nospam> wrote:

So far all your statements have been reasonable.

I'd just like to state that from an employer's perspective
the MCSD.NET has very little value especially when viewed
without any other context that the applicant may be able to
provide in person.
The test is meant to assess your skills as a programmer.
Not really. You don't even have to have a firm grasp of the
language (VB.NET or C#) to pass the tests. You can be a
"lousy programmer" and pass those tests. The tests attempt
to gauge your knowledge of the framework in the broadest
sense of the exam's specified topic and the stated "Skills
being measured". If you care to review them, here they are:

VB.NET track
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/ex...305.asp#SKILLS
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/ex...306.asp#SKILLS
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/ex...310.asp#SKILLS
plus
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/ex...300.asp#SKILLS
and most likely
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/ex...229.asp#SKILLS

"Skills as a programmer" that are independent from
programming languages and tools will ultimately have a more
significant impact on the quality and maintainability of the
developer's product.
Ideally, someone who is a .NET programmer and works in the technologies being
tested on a regular basis should be able to pass the test without any
preparation.

Because the MCSD exams have a tendency to test on things that are less
used or never used, some studying is required.
Not that this will be ever put to a test but I think you
would be surprised. The tests are more laid out to cover the
breadth of the framework/exam topic and some obscure
questions are thrown in for good measure. Because of the
20/80 rule many "regular programmers" would have difficulty
passing the test without preparation because they were never
in a position where they had to use (or weren't aware of the
existence of) the dustier corners of the framework or tools
(as you have observed).
However some of the corners tend to be "dusty" because many
individuals tend to work with a minimal set of knowledge
(human nature I guess) - they don't see the value of
learning some of the other features unless somebody or
something forces them to. This is even more true in an
environment where coding is a part-time activity; there are
always proposals and project plans to write/estimate,
requirements to gather and document, legacy applications to
analyse, meetings to attend, etc.

So these exams try to cover some breadth and there is a
certain "propaganda " value by trying to show the tools and
framework in the best light.
But 3 months of dedicated studying is overkill.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Amit Kalani (author
of the favored C# preparation guides, which are the
counterpart of the Mike Gunderloy guides) estimates 1 month
per guide:

"To make sure that you get minimum hand-on experience needed
for the exam, these books are thick at about 1200 pages
each, and each will take at minimum one month of study time
to complete"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...575552-7205660

Based on that, your candidate should have only been able to
pass 3 out of 5 exams in that time span if he started out
with some programming experience but no .NET. (There is some
overlap between 70-305 and 70-306 because of ADO.NET;
however that is also exactly the area where those guides
need some beefing up to match the coverage of the test
questions).

Which actually puts your candidate in a gray area. In those
three months your candidate is either a "paper MCSD" or a
slow "braindump MCSD". A "braindump MCSD" is usually
acquired through the memorization of NDA violating
certification test questions. A "paper MCSD" obtains
knowledge through the certification guides and hopefully
through the study of the MSDN but has no real .NET
development background. A "real MCSD.NET" is usually
expected to have at least two years of .NET development
background. But even here the certification is often
attained through liberal use of test simulations to
considerably narrow the field of required learning to far
less than what's specified in the "Skills being measured".

"But I only need to send one of my developers to a one or
two week course, and they are up and running with the new
technology!"

Well that's the 20/80 rule in action again - you don't need
to know that much to get started and HOPEFULLY you'll pick
up the rest before you finish - however that doesn't mean
that developer would be able to pass a certification exam.

Would you hire somebody just based on the knowledge that
they have taken "the course" (they usually give out a nice
participation certificate at the end)? Probably not.

By the same token a successful certification (by itself) is
not an indicator of how effective and successful a developer
will be in your organization.

However an individual with a legitimate breadth of knowledge
of technologies as extensive in scope as .NET or J2EE can be
valuable especially if your staff's current skill set does
not cover all the aspects of the technology which could
otherwise leave you in a position where you aren't working
as effectively as you could and where you may end up
"re-inventing the wheel".

My $0.02 (and most people here disagree with me, so it's probably only
with $0.01 at best)

Sam
B-Line is now hiring one VB.NET developer for
WinForms + WebServices position with ASPX in future.
Seaking mid to senior level developer. For
information or to apply e-mail sam_blinex_com.

'The end result is that the majority of people actively
developing software are typically not the ones best qualified
to do it, and they don't even know it.'
Scott W. Ambler, 'Agile Modeling', p.5

[Michelle]

Hi All,

Last year I completed the 5 exams for the MCSD .NET - I didn't take any
time off work. I bought the MS recommended book, read the book, took
the exam - repeat 5 times. I made sure to book the exam on Monday or
Tuesday so that I'd have the weekend to study. Of course my situation
is fairly conducive to that kind of schedule:

1) We dont have any children
2) I rarely need to work overtime
3) I've been using .NET for 3 years

I agree with UAError, I found that studying was necessary due to the
topics on the guts of the framework - give me snippets of code any day!

ttyl,
Michelle