Well,
it's been a year since I jumped from C/C++ and ModPerl to Visual Studio 2003
and C#.
Frankly, I'm disappointed with it. There are a lot of little annoying bugs
with the IDE that just shouldn't have made it through rigorous testing. I'm
sure some of what I think of as deal killing flaws in the IDE are features
that have settings that I can change, but the environment is so clogged with
excess baggage it's impractical to go looking for the proper preference
setting.
-It took me a couple of months of being annoyed before I spent a *couple of
hours* trying to figure out how to turn on line numbers. Perhaps that's user
error, but I've been working with IDE's for a long time and it should be more
obvious than it's made. Do a search on "line numbers" in the help. Do you
find any help? Any entry that says "line numbers, enabling view of/lines
numbers, disabling view of"?Nope. You see a whole bunch of other stuff that
doesn't seem too relevant. One is forced to ask if the good people at
Microsoft even use the tool they are selling to the rest of us?
-The install is a humorous to say the least. I see no good reason for a 3
hour install. Putting the compiler on a new machine takes half a day. Now
that is expensive TOC.
-I still cannot figure out how to turn configure the ide so that when I open
a .aspx web page that it defaults to the HTML view instead of the design
view. So I have to wait for a page to render EVERY TIME I OPEN IT FOR
EDITING. Do you realize how much of my life I've watched dribble out on the
keyboard waiting for pages to render that I don't even want rendered!
-Web Applications (my god, where to start), what a hellish journey. Thanks,
but requiring file system access and http access to my projects is just
scary. Again, I can't think of anything I'm gaining by having this
requirement rammed down my throat. Where I work, we aren't allowed to access
the web servers, so your whole paradigm adds a huge amount of unnecessary
work (the needless pain). Basically this tool is unusable in my opinion.
Nobody I know likes working with it for Web Application development.
-Code bloat. Well it seems like it takes 5 to 10 times more lines of code to
do a job with .net .aspx than it does in Perl. I say work smarter not harder
and go with the fewer lines of code.
-I'd say that the last reason our whole company (1400 employee bank) is
leaving .net for Java is all the marketing drivel inserted in the Microsoft
documentation. It's not enough to talk about a paradigm, you have to add
things like "Web applications are finally maturing, and the abstraction level
rises with ASP.NET". The implication being that we've finally arrived at a
mature technology with ASP.NET. Don't waste my time, I already bought the
product! Get to the point without forcing me to think about the propaganda. I
think there are a lot of folks who feel as though their technology is pretty
mature with modperl, python, and ruby. Interestingly, the books from those
camps don't seem to have the same need to claim dominance. Again, TOC is too
high with Microsoft literature once you count in all the wading through
needless marketing drivel.
-Double pumping web pages... Since I can't get the debugger to work without
hanging my computer, I've resorted to Response.Write for debugging. Why in
the world does each response write twice???
I feel better already.
-tad
15  1347 
For HTML design view instead of html view: Options --> HTML designer -->
Design View (3 times).
For your Response.Write writing two times: make sure that AutoEventWireup is
set to "false". Also you may want to make a check with Trace.axd.
S. L.
"tadpole" <ta*****@discus sions.microsoft .com> wrote in message
news:A7******** *************** ***********@mic rosoft.com... Well,
it's been a year since I jumped from C/C++ and ModPerl to Visual Studio
2003
and C#.
Frankly, I'm disappointed with it. There are a lot of little annoying bugs
with the IDE that just shouldn't have made it through rigorous testing.
I'm
sure some of what I think of as deal killing flaws in the IDE are features
that have settings that I can change, but the environment is so clogged
with
excess baggage it's impractical to go looking for the proper preference
setting.
-It took me a couple of months of being annoyed before I spent a *couple
of
hours* trying to figure out how to turn on line numbers. Perhaps that's
user
error, but I've been working with IDE's for a long time and it should be
more
obvious than it's made. Do a search on "line numbers" in the help. Do you
find any help? Any entry that says "line numbers, enabling view of/lines
numbers, disabling view of"?Nope. You see a whole bunch of other stuff
that
doesn't seem too relevant. One is forced to ask if the good people at
Microsoft even use the tool they are selling to the rest of us?
-The install is a humorous to say the least. I see no good reason for a 3
hour install. Putting the compiler on a new machine takes half a day. Now
that is expensive TOC.
-I still cannot figure out how to turn configure the ide so that when I
open
a .aspx web page that it defaults to the HTML view instead of the design
view. So I have to wait for a page to render EVERY TIME I OPEN IT FOR
EDITING. Do you realize how much of my life I've watched dribble out on
the
keyboard waiting for pages to render that I don't even want rendered!
-Web Applications (my god, where to start), what a hellish journey.
Thanks,
but requiring file system access and http access to my projects is just
scary. Again, I can't think of anything I'm gaining by having this
requirement rammed down my throat. Where I work, we aren't allowed to
access
the web servers, so your whole paradigm adds a huge amount of unnecessary
work (the needless pain). Basically this tool is unusable in my opinion.
Nobody I know likes working with it for Web Application development.
-Code bloat. Well it seems like it takes 5 to 10 times more lines of code
to
do a job with .net .aspx than it does in Perl. I say work smarter not
harder
and go with the fewer lines of code.
-I'd say that the last reason our whole company (1400 employee bank) is
leaving .net for Java is all the marketing drivel inserted in the
Microsoft
documentation. It's not enough to talk about a paradigm, you have to add
things like "Web applications are finally maturing, and the abstraction
level
rises with ASP.NET". The implication being that we've finally arrived at a
mature technology with ASP.NET. Don't waste my time, I already bought the
product! Get to the point without forcing me to think about the
propaganda. I
think there are a lot of folks who feel as though their technology is
pretty
mature with modperl, python, and ruby. Interestingly, the books from those
camps don't seem to have the same need to claim dominance. Again, TOC is
too
high with Microsoft literature once you count in all the wading through
needless marketing drivel.
-Double pumping web pages... Since I can't get the debugger to work
without
hanging my computer, I've resorted to Response.Write for debugging. Why in
the world does each response write twice???
I feel better already.
-tad
tadpole <ta*****@discus sions.microsoft .com> wrote:
<snip> -It took me a couple of months of being annoyed before I spent a *couple of
hours* trying to figure out how to turn on line numbers. Perhaps that's user
error, but I've been working with IDE's for a long time and it should be more
obvious than it's made. Do a search on "line numbers" in the help. Do you
find any help? Any entry that says "line numbers, enabling view of/lines
numbers, disabling view of"?Nope. You see a whole bunch of other stuff that
doesn't seem too relevant. One is forced to ask if the good people at
Microsoft even use the tool they are selling to the rest of us?
Hmm. Searching for Line Numbers in the help includes an entry:
"Navigating Code and Text". That page includes:
<quote>
1. In the General, All Languages, Text Editor, Options dialog box,
click Line Numbers.
</quote>
-The install is a humorous to say the least. I see no good reason for a 3
hour install. Putting the compiler on a new machine takes half a day. Now
that is expensive TOC.
Agreed, the install is pretty horrible.
-I still cannot figure out how to turn configure the ide so that when I open
a .aspx web page that it defaults to the HTML view instead of the design
view. So I have to wait for a page to render EVERY TIME I OPEN IT FOR
EDITING. Do you realize how much of my life I've watched dribble out on the
keyboard waiting for pages to render that I don't even want rendered!
Options -> HTML Designer -> Start Web Form pages in HTML view sounds
like it would do it.
-Web Applications (my god, where to start), what a hellish journey. Thanks,
but requiring file system access and http access to my projects is just
scary. Again, I can't think of anything I'm gaining by having this
requirement rammed down my throat. Where I work, we aren't allowed to access
the web servers, so your whole paradigm adds a huge amount of unnecessary
work (the needless pain). Basically this tool is unusable in my opinion.
Nobody I know likes working with it for Web Application development.
The idea is that for development you run your own web server rather
than having to access any production ones. There are definitely pluses
and minuses to this, I agree, but it gets your code running under
development in a similar way to how it will run in production.
-Code bloat. Well it seems like it takes 5 to 10 times more lines of code to
do a job with .net .aspx than it does in Perl. I say work smarter not harder
and go with the fewer lines of code.
How long does each of those lines of code take to write and maintain
though? I'd rather read 5 lines of C# than 1 line of Perl any day.
-I'd say that the last reason our whole company (1400 employee bank) is
leaving .net for Java is all the marketing drivel inserted in the Microsoft
documentation. It's not enough to talk about a paradigm, you have to add
things like "Web applications are finally maturing, and the abstraction level
rises with ASP.NET". The implication being that we've finally arrived at a
mature technology with ASP.NET. Don't waste my time, I already bought the
product! Get to the point without forcing me to think about the propaganda. I
think there are a lot of folks who feel as though their technology is pretty
mature with modperl, python, and ruby. Interestingly, the books from those
camps don't seem to have the same need to claim dominance. Again, TOC is too
high with Microsoft literature once you count in all the wading through
needless marketing drivel.
I haven't seen much marketing drivel in the technical documentation I
have to read, to be honest.
-Double pumping web pages... Since I can't get the debugger to work without
hanging my computer, I've resorted to Response.Write for debugging. Why in
the world does each response write twice???
Pass - but I'd have another go at getting the debugger to work...
--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.co m> http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
> -The install is a humorous to say the least. I see no good reason for a 3 hour install. Putting the compiler on a new machine takes half a day. Now
that is expensive TOC.
FWIW I've found if you have the DVD version, copy it to the harddrive and
run setup from there. Install speed increases by an order of magnitude.
Greg
"Jon Skeet [C# MVP]" wrote: tadpole <ta*****@discus sions.microsoft .com> wrote:
<snip>
-It took me a couple of months of being annoyed before I spent a *couple of
hours* trying to figure out how to turn on line numbers. Perhaps that's user
error, but I've been working with IDE's for a long time and it should be more
obvious than it's made. Do a search on "line numbers" in the help. Do you
find any help? Any entry that says "line numbers, enabling view of/lines
numbers, disabling view of"?Nope. You see a whole bunch of other stuff that
doesn't seem too relevant. One is forced to ask if the good people at
Microsoft even use the tool they are selling to the rest of us?
Hmm. Searching for Line Numbers in the help includes an entry:
"Navigating Code and Text". That page includes:
<quote>
1. In the General, All Languages, Text Editor, Options dialog box,
click Line Numbers.
</quote>
There are 200 other pages shown as well. Are you suggesting that I wade
through a book to turn something off that should never have been turned on in
the first place?
-The install is a humorous to say the least. I see no good reason for a 3
hour install. Putting the compiler on a new machine takes half a day. Now
that is expensive TOC.
Agreed, the install is pretty horrible.
-I still cannot figure out how to turn configure the ide so that when I open
a .aspx web page that it defaults to the HTML view instead of the design
view. So I have to wait for a page to render EVERY TIME I OPEN IT FOR
EDITING. Do you realize how much of my life I've watched dribble out on the
keyboard waiting for pages to render that I don't even want rendered!
Options -> HTML Designer -> Start Web Form pages in HTML view sounds
like it would do it.
That did the trick. Thanks!
-Web Applications (my god, where to start), what a hellish journey. Thanks,
but requiring file system access and http access to my projects is just
scary. Again, I can't think of anything I'm gaining by having this
requirement rammed down my throat. Where I work, we aren't allowed to access
the web servers, so your whole paradigm adds a huge amount of unnecessary
work (the needless pain). Basically this tool is unusable in my opinion.
Nobody I know likes working with it for Web Application development.
The idea is that for development you run your own web server rather
than having to access any production ones. There are definitely pluses
and minuses to this, I agree, but it gets your code running under
development in a similar way to how it will run in production.
IT's not a best practice to run a web server on your own machine. You are
asking for trouble if you do that. It's a security hole. You cannot do that
in an environment where everything is hardened.
Whomever thought that up is probably the same person who wrote up all those
MSDN ASP examples where you have SQL embedded in the raw ASP, so leave your
SQL server wide open for the world. The whole idea of having a sql username
and password embedded in a text file at the root of my web directory seems
just plain stupid. You are begging to be hacked.
-Code bloat. Well it seems like it takes 5 to 10 times more lines of code to
do a job with .net .aspx than it does in Perl. I say work smarter not harder
and go with the fewer lines of code.
I haven't seen much marketing drivel in the technical documentation I
have to read, to be honest.
Then you have a higher tolerance for it than I do.
Pass - but I'd have another go at getting the debugger to work...
I don't have access to the software setups or hardware. That's why we have
an IT department. I have to submit a help desk ticket. So it takes about a
week to work through something, that I could have resolved in a half hour
with Python. My point is that I don't have this problem with any other tool,
nor have I ever, and I can't afford to be down for even a day because someone
delivered a product that wasn't quite ready for primetime because they have
to deliver on a schedule. I know plenty of people at Microsloth and I know
the drill there. It's not about innovation, it's about market share.
Microsoft is always about 5 years behind the technology curve. The problem is
that the consumer industry is about 8 years behind the curve.
--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
>-Code bloat. Well it seems like it takes 5 to 10 times more lines of code to do a job with .net .aspx than it does in Perl. I say work smarter not harder
and go with the fewer lines of code.
Not only is the code smaller, it runs faster.
Is Perl even compiled? How can it run faster?
Greg
"tadpole" <ta*****@discus sions.microsoft .com> wrote in message
news:92******** *************** ***********@mic rosoft.com... -Code bloat. Well it seems like it takes 5 to 10 times more lines of code
to
do a job with .net .aspx than it does in Perl. I say work smarter not
harder
and go with the fewer lines of code.
Not only is the code smaller, it runs faster.
By the time the bloated .net runtime has fired up to begin doing it's thing,
my modperl code has already executed and is still resident in memory
servicing other requests. I use both environments every day, and am
constantly porting apps from one environment to another so I have a large
suite of real world data and experience to go on. We use PHP, Python, Perl,
Java, ASP and C# and have roughly 15 mission critial apps in these
environments. As a lead testing coder I'm in somewhat of a unique position to
see benchmarks. We've written lots more lines of .net code, but in the end
only 3 apps are running in that environment after 2 years, but all the rest
were done in other environments in much less time per app. They are easier to
maintain as well. Same coding conventions, same group of coders.
Total Cost of Ownership is really a discussion in and of itself, but what I
see whith the Microsoft Web Application solution set is that I have to pay
for tools that have free variants that are as good or better (and to pay for
something that I can't fix problems in or customize to my work flow, when I
can get something that does give me that for free really rankles), then I
have to pay never ending yearly license fees for the web server and the OS to
run it on, and pretty soon from what I've read Micsosoft will be trying to
get programmers to rent code libraries on a per use basis. I can put up a
robust (more hardenened that you could possibly do with Windows)
transactional web site in a week for peanuts using open source tools. I only
have to charge the customer for hardware and labor. If I use Microsoft, it
takes literally 3 or 4 times as long to do the setup for each machine, and
the price goes up by a factor of 5 or 6 at least to the customer. Even the
really good ideas for open source are $500/pop, but they work. And they have
features that you will not see from a Microsoft IDE until 2007. Me, I can't
afford to wait around.
I don't understand how a company who has that much money can't seem to
produce something on their own. C# is a bitwise copy of Java. Period. Flat
out, unabashed ripoff.
I'll ask again, what did I get for all this pain of learning a new
enviroment that I didn't already have, other than some back pain?
"Greg Burns" wrote: Is Perl even compiled? How can it run faster?
Greg
"tadpole" <ta*****@discus sions.microsoft .com> wrote in message
news:92******** *************** ***********@mic rosoft.com...-Code bloat. Well it seems like it takes 5 to 10 times more lines of code
to
do a job with .net .aspx than it does in Perl. I say work smarter not
harder
and go with the fewer lines of code.
Not only is the code smaller, it runs faster.
"C# is a bitwise copy of Java"
rofl! I don't need to read anything else.
<done>
tadpole wrote: By the time the bloated .net runtime has fired up to begin doing it's
thing, my modperl code has already executed and is still resident in
memory servicing other requests. I use both environments every day,
and am constantly porting apps from one environment to another so I
have a large suite of real world data and experience to go on. We use
PHP, Python, Perl, Java, ASP and C# and have roughly 15 mission
critial apps in these environments. As a lead testing coder I'm in
somewhat of a unique position to see benchmarks. We've written lots
more lines of .net code, but in the end only 3 apps are running in
that environment after 2 years, but all the rest were done in other
environments in much less time per app. They are easier to maintain
as well. Same coding conventions, same group of coders.
Total Cost of Ownership is really a discussion in and of itself, but
what I see whith the Microsoft Web Application solution set is that I
have to pay for tools that have free variants that are as good or
better (and to pay for something that I can't fix problems in or
customize to my work flow, when I can get something that does give me
that for free really rankles), then I have to pay never ending yearly
license fees for the web server and the OS to run it on, and pretty
soon from what I've read Micsosoft will be trying to get programmers
to rent code libraries on a per use basis. I can put up a robust
(more hardenened that you could possibly do with Windows)
transactional web site in a week for peanuts using open source tools.
I only have to charge the customer for hardware and labor. If I use
Microsoft, it takes literally 3 or 4 times as long to do the setup
for each machine, and the price goes up by a factor of 5 or 6 at
least to the customer. Even the really good ideas for open source are
$500/pop, but they work. And they have features that you will not see
from a Microsoft IDE until 2007. Me, I can't afford to wait around.
I don't understand how a company who has that much money can't seem to
produce something on their own. C# is a bitwise copy of Java. Period.
Flat out, unabashed ripoff.
I'll ask again, what did I get for all this pain of learning a new
enviroment that I didn't already have, other than some back pain?
"Greg Burns" wrote:
Is Perl even compiled? How can it run faster?
Greg
"tadpole" <ta*****@discus sions.microsoft .com> wrote in message
news:92******** *************** ***********@mic rosoft.com... -Code bloat. Well it seems like it takes 5 to 10 times more lines
of code to
do a job with .net .aspx than it does in Perl. I say work smarter
not harder
and go with the fewer lines of code.
Not only is the code smaller, it runs faster. http://genamics.com/developer/csharp_comparative.htm
"C# language was built with the hindsight of many languages, but most
notably Java and C++."
I would hardly call that a ripoff.
Greg
"tadpole" <ta*****@discus sions.microsoft .com> wrote in message
news:B6******** *************** ***********@mic rosoft.com... By the time the bloated .net runtime has fired up to begin doing it's
thing,
my modperl code has already executed and is still resident in memory
servicing other requests. I use both environments every day, and am
constantly porting apps from one environment to another so I have a large
suite of real world data and experience to go on. We use PHP, Python,
Perl,
Java, ASP and C# and have roughly 15 mission critial apps in these
environments. As a lead testing coder I'm in somewhat of a unique position
to
see benchmarks. We've written lots more lines of .net code, but in the end
only 3 apps are running in that environment after 2 years, but all the
rest
were done in other environments in much less time per app. They are easier
to
maintain as well. Same coding conventions, same group of coders.
Total Cost of Ownership is really a discussion in and of itself, but what
I
see whith the Microsoft Web Application solution set is that I have to pay
for tools that have free variants that are as good or better (and to pay
for
something that I can't fix problems in or customize to my work flow, when
I
can get something that does give me that for free really rankles), then I
have to pay never ending yearly license fees for the web server and the OS
to
run it on, and pretty soon from what I've read Micsosoft will be trying to
get programmers to rent code libraries on a per use basis. I can put up a
robust (more hardenened that you could possibly do with Windows)
transactional web site in a week for peanuts using open source tools. I
only
have to charge the customer for hardware and labor. If I use Microsoft, it
takes literally 3 or 4 times as long to do the setup for each machine, and
the price goes up by a factor of 5 or 6 at least to the customer. Even the
really good ideas for open source are $500/pop, but they work. And they
have
features that you will not see from a Microsoft IDE until 2007. Me, I
can't
afford to wait around.
I don't understand how a company who has that much money can't seem to
produce something on their own. C# is a bitwise copy of Java. Period. Flat
out, unabashed ripoff.
I'll ask again, what did I get for all this pain of learning a new
enviroment that I didn't already have, other than some back pain?
"Greg Burns" wrote:
Is Perl even compiled? How can it run faster?
Greg
"tadpole" <ta*****@discus sions.microsoft .com> wrote in message
news:92******** *************** ***********@mic rosoft.com... > >-Code bloat. Well it seems like it takes 5 to 10 times more lines of
> >code
> >to
>>do a job with .net .aspx than it does in Perl. I say work smarter not
>>harder
>>and go with the fewer lines of code.
> Not only is the code smaller, it runs faster.
>
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by: jinu1996 |
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In today's digital age, having a compelling online presence is paramount for businesses aiming to thrive in a competitive landscape. At the heart of this digital strategy lies an intricately woven tapestry of website design and digital marketing. It's not merely about having a website; it's about crafting an immersive digital experience that captivates audiences and drives business growth.
The Art of Business Website Design
Your website is...
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by: tracyyun |
last post by:
Dear forum friends,
With the development of smart home technology, a variety of wireless communication protocols have appeared on the market, such as Zigbee, Z-Wave, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc. Each protocol has its own unique characteristics and advantages, but as a user who is planning to build a smart home system, I am a bit confused by the choice of these technologies. I'm particularly interested in Zigbee because I've heard it does some...
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by: agi2029 |
last post by:
Let's talk about the concept of autonomous AI software engineers and no-code agents. These AIs are designed to manage the entire lifecycle of a software development project—planning, coding, testing, and deployment—without human intervention. Imagine an AI that can take a project description, break it down, write the code, debug it, and then launch it, all on its own....
Now, this would greatly impact the work of software developers. The idea...
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by: conductexam |
last post by:
I have .net C# application in which I am extracting data from word file and save it in database particularly. To store word all data as it is I am converting the whole word file firstly in HTML and then checking html paragraph one by one.
At the time of converting from word file to html my equations which are in the word document file was convert into image.
Globals.ThisAddIn.Application.ActiveDocument.Select();...
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by: TSSRALBI |
last post by:
Hello
I'm a network technician in training and I need your help.
I am currently learning how to create and manage the different types of VPNs and I have a question about LAN-to-LAN VPNs.
The last exercise I practiced was to create a LAN-to-LAN VPN between two Pfsense firewalls, by using IPSEC protocols.
I succeeded, with both firewalls in the same network. But I'm wondering if it's possible to do the same thing, with 2 Pfsense firewalls...
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by: 6302768590 |
last post by:
Hai team
i want code for transfer the data from one system to another through IP address by using C# our system has to for every 5mins then we have to update the data what the data is updated we have to send another system
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by: muto222 |
last post by:
How can i add a mobile payment intergratation into php mysql website.
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