Database access sucks!

[Relaxin]

It is just me or has MS created some of the worst ways to access and display
data?

You can use a DataSet, but if you want to sort or filter the data to must
use a DataView which is created from a DataSet.

But, if you sort by using the Grid (clicking the header) you can no longer
use the DataSet (or maybe the DataView, if that is what you are using) to
locate the record that the user has selected!!

You have to write code to get the current position...this should just be a
property!!

Also, can someone explain to me why does the FindRows return
DataRowView...w hat can you do with a DataRowView, I haven't figure out a way
to load this data into a new DataView or a DataSet (if there is a way,
please explain it to me). It seems that the FindRows should have just
return a new DataView!!

I understand why all of the necessary data access components are broken out
into many different parts, but why not ALSO build a component that
encompasses all of the components and use that as an "enhanced DataSet" that
can also be used as a Datasource to the grid and other components.(Thi s is
something that I have already done for myself.)

Maybe it's because I'm coming from Borland and expect top notch development
tools/comopnents...wh ere there VCL Framework and Data Access components were
THE BEST!!!

But I had to leave Borland because their management said that they were
killing the Borland C++ Builder (BCB) product about 6 months ago. But, they
just recently announced that they had a change of heart and will now support
BCB.
That's a little to flaky for me, so I jumped ship and moved to MS.

But with what I have seen in VS.NET (C#), I might have to talk my chances
with Borland.

[Cor Ligthert]

Relaxin

I know EXACTLY what they are, but since you asked for it. The DataSet contains 1 or more DataTables references 0 or more
A DataTable contains 1 or more DataRows references 0 or more.
A DataRow contains 1 or more DataColumns. A DataRow references 0 or more Items described by the columncollectio n from
the DataTable
A DataView is a subset and/or sorted view of the DataSet. The DataView is a view on a datatable not on the Dataset (as you
consequently state) which has filters and sort parameters in it. Every
DataTable contains one Dataview named DefaultView.
I'm still unsure what the purpose of the DataRowViews is, but I know A DataRowView is a view on an single datarow however as well on other class
objects
DataRowView.Fin dRows returns it.

I don't know the DataRowView.Fin dRows method so I do not know what you mean
with this.

I don't think that your first statement about EXACTLY is very correct.

Just my thought,

Cor

[J. Buelna - Houston, TX]

"Relaxin" <me@yourhouse.c om> wrote in message
news:eP******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP15.phx.gbl...

It is just me or has MS created some of the worst ways to access and
display
data?

You can use a DataSet, but if you want to sort or filter the data to must
use a DataView which is created from a DataSet.

But, if you sort by using the Grid (clicking the header) you can no longer
use the DataSet (or maybe the DataView, if that is what you are using) to
locate the record that the user has selected!!

You have to write code to get the current position...this should just be a
property!!

Also, can someone explain to me why does the FindRows return
DataRowView...w hat can you do with a DataRowView, I haven't figure out a
way
to load this data into a new DataView or a DataSet (if there is a way,
please explain it to me). It seems that the FindRows should have just
return a new DataView!!

I understand why all of the necessary data access components are broken
out
into many different parts, but why not ALSO build a component that
encompasses all of the components and use that as an "enhanced DataSet"
that
can also be used as a Datasource to the grid and other components.(Thi s is
something that I have already done for myself.)

Maybe it's because I'm coming from Borland and expect top notch
development
tools/comopnents...wh ere there VCL Framework and Data Access components
were
THE BEST!!!

But I had to leave Borland because their management said that they were
killing the Borland C++ Builder (BCB) product about 6 months ago. But,
they
just recently announced that they had a change of heart and will now
support
BCB.
That's a little to flaky for me, so I jumped ship and moved to MS.

But with what I have seen in VS.NET (C#), I might have to talk my chances
with Borland.

Hello Relaxin,

I'm sorry, I don't have time to go into details. Here are some references:

Microsoft® ADO.NET Step by Step
http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/4825.asp

Microsoft® ADO.NET (Core Reference)
http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/5354.asp

Professional ADO.NET
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

It would be good to learn and fully understand ADO.NET on an academic level
before trying to use it in a commercial project. Unless your employer
allows you to learn the as you go.

ADO.NET is not perfect, but there was a lot of thought that went into
architecting it and rest assured that there is a solution for most of the
problems you'll run into.

J. Buelna - Houston, TX

[Michel van den Berg]

Why don't you try using LLBLGen Pro (www.llblgen.com). I find it much
easier to use then the default way of data access.

Have a nice New Years Eve,

Michel van den Berg

Relaxin wrote:

It is just me or has MS created some of the worst ways to access and display
data?

You can use a DataSet, but if you want to sort or filter the data to must
use a DataView which is created from a DataSet.

But, if you sort by using the Grid (clicking the header) you can no longer
use the DataSet (or maybe the DataView, if that is what you are using) to
locate the record that the user has selected!!

You have to write code to get the current position...this should just be a
property!!

Also, can someone explain to me why does the FindRows return
DataRowView...w hat can you do with a DataRowView, I haven't figure out a way
to load this data into a new DataView or a DataSet (if there is a way,
please explain it to me). It seems that the FindRows should have just
return a new DataView!!

I understand why all of the necessary data access components are broken out
into many different parts, but why not ALSO build a component that
encompasses all of the components and use that as an "enhanced DataSet" that
can also be used as a Datasource to the grid and other components.(Thi s is
something that I have already done for myself.)

Maybe it's because I'm coming from Borland and expect top notch development
tools/comopnents...wh ere there VCL Framework and Data Access components were
THE BEST!!!

But I had to leave Borland because their management said that they were
killing the Borland C++ Builder (BCB) product about 6 months ago. But, they
just recently announced that they had a change of heart and will now support
BCB.
That's a little to flaky for me, so I jumped ship and moved to MS.

But with what I have seen in VS.NET (C#), I might have to talk my chances
with Borland.

[Relaxin]

What I need is a connected resultset within the confines of a DataSet.

My database is full of images, and as you could imagine, this is a painful
process when they are all loaded to the clientside.

Anyone with any knowledge in this area?

"J. Buelna - Houston, TX" <jbuelna-not@microsoft.. .yet.com> wrote in message
news:OT******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP11.phx.gbl...

"Relaxin" <me@yourhouse.c om> wrote in message
news:eP******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP15.phx.gbl...

It is just me or has MS created some of the worst ways to access and
display
data?

You can use a DataSet, but if you want to sort or filter the data to must
use a DataView which is created from a DataSet.

But, if you sort by using the Grid (clicking the header) you can no
longer
use the DataSet (or maybe the DataView, if that is what you are using) to
locate the record that the user has selected!!

You have to write code to get the current position...this should just be
a
property!!

Also, can someone explain to me why does the FindRows return
DataRowView...w hat can you do with a DataRowView, I haven't figure out a
way
to load this data into a new DataView or a DataSet (if there is a way,
please explain it to me). It seems that the FindRows should have just
return a new DataView!!

I understand why all of the necessary data access components are broken
out
into many different parts, but why not ALSO build a component that
encompasses all of the components and use that as an "enhanced DataSet"
that
can also be used as a Datasource to the grid and other components.(Thi s
is
something that I have already done for myself.)

Maybe it's because I'm coming from Borland and expect top notch
development
tools/comopnents...wh ere there VCL Framework and Data Access components
were
THE BEST!!!

But I had to leave Borland because their management said that they were
killing the Borland C++ Builder (BCB) product about 6 months ago. But,
they
just recently announced that they had a change of heart and will now
support
BCB.
That's a little to flaky for me, so I jumped ship and moved to MS.

But with what I have seen in VS.NET (C#), I might have to talk my chances
with Borland.

Hello Relaxin,

I'm sorry, I don't have time to go into details. Here are some
references:

Microsoft® ADO.NET Step by Step
http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/4825.asp

Microsoft® ADO.NET (Core Reference)
http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/5354.asp

Professional ADO.NET
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

It would be good to learn and fully understand ADO.NET on an academic
level before trying to use it in a commercial project. Unless your
employer allows you to learn the as you go.

ADO.NET is not perfect, but there was a lot of thought that went into
architecting it and rest assured that there is a solution for most of the
problems you'll run into.

J. Buelna - Houston, TX

[Relaxin]

ok, 0 or more.
I guess you found the loophole you were looking for.

Have a great day!

"Cor Ligthert" <no************ @planet.nl> wrote in message
news:%2******** ********@TK2MSF TNGP14.phx.gbl. ..

Relaxin

I know EXACTLY what they are, but since you asked for it.

The DataSet contains 1 or more DataTables

references 0 or more

A DataTable contains 1 or more DataRows

references 0 or more.

A DataRow contains 1 or more DataColumns.

A DataRow references 0 or more Items described by the columncollectio n
from the DataTable

A DataView is a subset and/or sorted view of the DataSet.

The DataView is a view on a datatable not on the Dataset (as you
consequently state) which has filters and sort parameters in it. Every
DataTable contains one Dataview named DefaultView.

I'm still unsure what the purpose of the DataRowViews is, but I know

A DataRowView is a view on an single datarow however as well on other
class objects

DataRowView.Fin dRows returns it.

I don't know the DataRowView.Fin dRows method so I do not know what you
mean with this.

I don't think that your first statement about EXACTLY is very correct.

Just my thought,

Cor

[Nick Malik [Microsoft]]

Hello Relaxin,

apart from your last statement, which was a bit unfair, you are not wrong in
your description of the object tree for a dataset. That said, datasets are
part of a disconnected data retrieval model that is far more scalable than
the prior database tools. By the way, you bashed MS for the new structure,
and referred to Borland, but MS created the older structure too. Seems odd
to bring Borland into it at all.

Certainly, you can create "chatty" data interaction models that will do the
exact same thing as "keyset". The rest of the retrieval types are perfectly
available in ADO.NET, if you know how to use it. While I may take a
different tone that Cor, I would have to say that he has a point: there is
very little useful functionality "lost" in ADO.NET.

From what I've heard, the product teams were getting a lot of heat because
the prior stuff had serious scalability problems. The responses were
something along the lines of "If the feature looks good, but leads to
serious problems later, why is it there? Remove it now and save us the
pain. We have to live with this stuff." MS was simply responding to the
express needs of their base. If the make a little money along the way...
good. That's called capitalism.

Back to technology.

If you have images in some of your columns, don't return those columns in
your dataset. Use a select statement or a stored proc to select only the
rows that you need for your non-image processing, and then when you need an
image, ask for it from the database using a seperate statement. It's what
the older tools used to do for you, but at least this way, the code is
yours, so you are at more liberty to tweak it to get the performance you
need.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--
"Relaxin" <me@yourhouse.c om> wrote in message
news:%2******** ********@TK2MSF TNGP12.phx.gbl. ..

I know EXACTLY what they are, but since you asked for it.

The DataSet contains 1 or more DataTables.
A DataTable contains 1 or more DataRows.
A DataRow contains 1 or more DataColumns.
A DataView is a subset and/or sorted view of the DataSet.
I'm still unsure what the purpose of the DataRowViews is, but I know
DataRowView.Fin dRows returns it.

Like I mentioned earlier, I have created my own components to handle things the way they should be.

I'm mainly venting because I would have expected a better design from MS,
but I guess if you(most people in this NG, I assume) haven't seen anything
other than MS, you wouldn't have anything to compare it to.
So of course you would think that this design is great.

Give Borland a try when you get a chance, you will see a hell of a design.
You can tell that Borland tools are Developed By Developers for Developers.
MS is designed for cash only!!
"Cor Ligthert" <no************ @planet.nl> wrote in message
news:Oq******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...

Relaxin,

I get more and more the idea that you don't know what is a dataset,
datatable, datarow, dataview and/or a datarowview in ADONET. Can you
explain what they are in your opinion.

Because when we talk about different things it is hard to make a
discussion.

Cor

[Cor Ligthert]

Nick,

My tone changed (and even not aggressively) after a while when there were
only messages that Borland was better and that a dataview was a not good
functioning member of a dataset and the DataRowView.Fin dRows returns only a
datarowview, where it should be a position.

So please read first my first message before you write this kind of
sentences about my tone.

Where I know that your sentence is not bad intended, however it can be read
as that. When you had written "in a different style", I would not have
complained.

Just to make this clear.

Cor

"Nick Malik [Microsoft]" <ni*******@hotm ail.nospam.com> schreef in bericht
news:NIOAd.3051 40$HA.192568@at tbi_s01...

Hello Relaxin,

apart from your last statement, which was a bit unfair, you are not wrong
in
your description of the object tree for a dataset. That said, datasets
are
part of a disconnected data retrieval model that is far more scalable than
the prior database tools. By the way, you bashed MS for the new
structure,
and referred to Borland, but MS created the older structure too. Seems
odd
to bring Borland into it at all.

Certainly, you can create "chatty" data interaction models that will do
the
exact same thing as "keyset". The rest of the retrieval types are
perfectly
available in ADO.NET, if you know how to use it. While I may take a
different tone that Cor, I would have to say that he has a point: there
is
very little useful functionality "lost" in ADO.NET.

From what I've heard, the product teams were getting a lot of heat because
the prior stuff had serious scalability problems. The responses were
something along the lines of "If the feature looks good, but leads to
serious problems later, why is it there? Remove it now and save us the
pain. We have to live with this stuff." MS was simply responding to the
express needs of their base. If the make a little money along the way...
good. That's called capitalism.

Back to technology.

If you have images in some of your columns, don't return those columns in
your dataset. Use a select statement or a stored proc to select only the
rows that you need for your non-image processing, and then when you need
an
image, ask for it from the database using a seperate statement. It's what
the older tools used to do for you, but at least this way, the code is
yours, so you are at more liberty to tweak it to get the performance you
need.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--
"Relaxin" <me@yourhouse.c om> wrote in message
news:%2******** ********@TK2MSF TNGP12.phx.gbl. ..

I know EXACTLY what they are, but since you asked for it.

The DataSet contains 1 or more DataTables.
A DataTable contains 1 or more DataRows.
A DataRow contains 1 or more DataColumns.
A DataView is a subset and/or sorted view of the DataSet.
I'm still unsure what the purpose of the DataRowViews is, but I know
DataRowView.Fin dRows returns it.

Like I mentioned earlier, I have created my own components to handle

things

the way they should be.

I'm mainly venting because I would have expected a better design from MS,
but I guess if you(most people in this NG, I assume) haven't seen
anything
other than MS, you wouldn't have anything to compare it to.
So of course you would think that this design is great.

Give Borland a try when you get a chance, you will see a hell of a
design.
You can tell that Borland tools are Developed By Developers for

Developers.

MS is designed for cash only!!
"Cor Ligthert" <no************ @planet.nl> wrote in message
news:Oq******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...

> Relaxin,
>
> I get more and more the idea that you don't know what is a dataset,
> datatable, datarow, dataview and/or a datarowview in ADONET. Can you
> explain what they are in your opinion.
>
> Because when we talk about different things it is hard to make a
> discussion.
>
> Cor
>

[W.G. Ryan eMVP]

Use a DataReader then - there's nothing to stop you from using the reaader
to store the info you need either in a dataset or collection of business
objects - however I'm not sure of the value of such an approach.

--
W.G. Ryan, MVP

www.tibasolutions.com | www.devbuzz.com | www.knowdotnet.com
"Relaxin" <me@yourhouse.c om> wrote in message
news:e$******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...

What I need is a connected resultset within the confines of a DataSet.

My database is full of images, and as you could imagine, this is a painful
process when they are all loaded to the clientside.

Anyone with any knowledge in this area?

"J. Buelna - Houston, TX" <jbuelna-not@microsoft.. .yet.com> wrote in message news:OT******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP11.phx.gbl...

"Relaxin" <me@yourhouse.c om> wrote in message
news:eP******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP15.phx.gbl...

It is just me or has MS created some of the worst ways to access and
display
data?

You can use a DataSet, but if you want to sort or filter the data to must use a DataView which is created from a DataSet.

But, if you sort by using the Grid (clicking the header) you can no
longer
use the DataSet (or maybe the DataView, if that is what you are using) to locate the record that the user has selected!!

You have to write code to get the current position...this should just be a
property!!

Also, can someone explain to me why does the FindRows return
DataRowView...w hat can you do with a DataRowView, I haven't figure out a way
to load this data into a new DataView or a DataSet (if there is a way,
please explain it to me). It seems that the FindRows should have just
return a new DataView!!

I understand why all of the necessary data access components are broken
out
into many different parts, but why not ALSO build a component that
encompasses all of the components and use that as an "enhanced DataSet"
that
can also be used as a Datasource to the grid and other components.(Thi s
is
something that I have already done for myself.)

Maybe it's because I'm coming from Borland and expect top notch
development
tools/comopnents...wh ere there VCL Framework and Data Access components
were
THE BEST!!!

But I had to leave Borland because their management said that they were
killing the Borland C++ Builder (BCB) product about 6 months ago. But,
they
just recently announced that they had a change of heart and will now
support
BCB.
That's a little to flaky for me, so I jumped ship and moved to MS.

But with what I have seen in VS.NET (C#), I might have to talk my chances with Borland.

Hello Relaxin,

I'm sorry, I don't have time to go into details. Here are some
references:

Microsoft® ADO.NET Step by Step
http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/4825.asp

Microsoft® ADO.NET (Core Reference)
http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/5354.asp

Professional ADO.NET
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846
It would be good to learn and fully understand ADO.NET on an academic
level before trying to use it in a commercial project. Unless your
employer allows you to learn the as you go.

ADO.NET is not perfect, but there was a lot of thought that went into
architecting it and rest assured that there is a solution for most of the problems you'll run into.

J. Buelna - Houston, TX

[W.G. Ryan eMVP]

Relaxin - semantically you made a few goofs but you have the overall
concepts down and that's what's important.

The key thing that a DataRowView is used for in my experience is determining
state. Short of that - I don' think there's a whole lot of importance.

This is a technical distinction but let me make it anyway - when you are
looking at data, normally you only want to see one form of it - it's current
state. However if you needed to know what the previous state was - so you
could revert to it or show a confirm dialog - you may want to use it here.

--
W.G. Ryan, MVP

www.tibasolutions.com | www.devbuzz.com | www.knowdotnet.com
"Relaxin" <me@yourhouse.c om> wrote in message
news:OW******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP15.phx.gbl...

ok, 0 or more.
I guess you found the loophole you were looking for.

Have a great day!

"Cor Ligthert" <no************ @planet.nl> wrote in message
news:%2******** ********@TK2MSF TNGP14.phx.gbl. ..

Relaxin

I know EXACTLY what they are, but since you asked for it.

The DataSet contains 1 or more DataTables

references 0 or more

A DataTable contains 1 or more DataRows

references 0 or more.

A DataRow contains 1 or more DataColumns.

A DataRow references 0 or more Items described by the columncollectio n
from the DataTable

A DataView is a subset and/or sorted view of the DataSet.

The DataView is a view on a datatable not on the Dataset (as you
consequently state) which has filters and sort parameters in it. Every
DataTable contains one Dataview named DefaultView.

I'm still unsure what the purpose of the DataRowViews is, but I know

A DataRowView is a view on an single datarow however as well on other
class objects

DataRowView.Fin dRows returns it.

I don't know the DataRowView.Fin dRows method so I do not know what you
mean with this.

I don't think that your first statement about EXACTLY is very correct.

Just my thought,

Cor

[Marc Scheuner [MVP ADSI]]

>> A DataRowView is just like a DataRow - only for a view. If you need

the underlying DataRow, just grab it from the .Row property of the
DataRowView - how easy is that?
That is exactly my point, why not just have FindRows return a DataView!!

Well, maybe because not everyone wants to use a DataView? Don't take
*YOUR* requirements and make them general - they might not be general
enough to be considered suitable for EVERYONE. Now there would
definitely be a possibility to at least provide an overloaded function
..FindRows that would return a DataView - then again, maybe MS decided
when they designed ADO.NET that this was too exotic an option.

After all, you really don't need to do much to get a DataView from
your results - just do it!
With the .NET dataset, it forces you to load all of the data to the
client...thi s doesn't work so well when you database is mainly made up of
images!

Well, then you might need to redesign your app - maybe you don't need
to select ALL the records INCLUDING the pictures! Maybe just rewrite
your app to select FEWER records, and leave the images in the DB,
until you REALLY need them.

Heck, it's not ALWAYS MS's fault when your system is designed badly!
;-)

Marc

=============== =============== =============== =============== ====
Marc Scheuner May The Source Be With You!
Berne, Switzerland m.scheuner -at- inova.ch