3-tier winforms architecture

[David Noble]

We've been developing a web site using 3-tier architecture for 18
months now.
There is a common layer that defines the classes - using XML schemas.
The data layer acts as a wrapper to 3 databases - SQL Server, Oracle
and AS400.
The business layer exposes web services which communicate with the
front end, ASP.Net. All 3 tiers are on different boxes. This works
well.

Now I am leading a team to build a winforms app. I need some advice as
to the best way to proceed. The application will have 9 or 10 users
only.

Are there any 3-tier examples demonstrating remoting, or are web
methods the way to go. I am anticipating a lot of deployments after we
go live, so I want to keep as much as possible on the server, and not
have to go round re-installing every couple of days. Or are Web
Services still the way to go ?

How does deployment work ? Could I put a client exe on the user's PC
and remote in to the business tier which talks to the data tier on the
same box ?

Can anyone point me to some good tutorials to help ?

[Jan Elbæk]

About deployment of Windows Forms Apps. Please take a look at Smart Client
Application Model:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/netframewo...artclient.aspx

And on remoting. Pick up Ingo Rammers book: Advanced .NET Remoting. At Ingo
Rammers web site theres an excellent .NET Remoting Use-Cases and Best
Practices http://www.ingorammer.com/RemotingFA...gUseCases.html

/Jan
"David Noble" <da*********@ho tmail.com> wrote in message
news:59******** *************** ***@posting.goo gle.com...

We've been developing a web site using 3-tier architecture for 18
months now.
There is a common layer that defines the classes - using XML schemas.
The data layer acts as a wrapper to 3 databases - SQL Server, Oracle
and AS400.
The business layer exposes web services which communicate with the
front end, ASP.Net. All 3 tiers are on different boxes. This works
well.

Now I am leading a team to build a winforms app. I need some advice as
to the best way to proceed. The application will have 9 or 10 users
only.

Are there any 3-tier examples demonstrating remoting, or are web
methods the way to go. I am anticipating a lot of deployments after we
go live, so I want to keep as much as possible on the server, and not
have to go round re-installing every couple of days. Or are Web
Services still the way to go ?

How does deployment work ? Could I put a client exe on the user's PC
and remote in to the business tier which talks to the data tier on the
same box ?

Can anyone point me to some good tutorials to help ?

[nospam]

***NOTE: Don't take this message personal, it mainly directed to the
stupidity of n-Tier idiots and the ignorance of the Microsoft architecture
team and those gurus and authors who regurgitate this nonsense without ever
questions the real business need and value and PLUS actually do an ROI over
the different architectures.. .they are still stuck in this Windows DNA
model....plus.. ..it's only for Microsoft's Windows applications
anyway....Micro soft itself.....not you the customer as Microsoft = Windows
which means please develop the architecture so Windows will still have some
usefullness to the common surfer on the Internet.
***

18 Months for 3-tier!!!! Shows how incredibly weak n-Tier is.
That's on par as SAP....any project, big or small going over a 9-12 months
is out of touch with the real world.

Now, you are going to make a Windows Apps for only 9-10 users?

For what reason? Just what business advantage will you achieve making a
Windows App?

Rich client??? Like what is it in that windows app that can't be done (and
is worth doing) on a Web app.

What happens if a few of those 9 to 10 people say, "Hey I really need this
on the Web, Or I need to access this somewhere else, like in the conference
room, which doesn't have the software installed, or we don't want it
installed there".

People think that that Windows App give a RICH CLIENT, but just exactly what
is the BUSINESS Advantage that a Windows Client will give you? Unless you
need real time access, there is absolutely no need for it other than to
impress your boss with some pretty pictures...afte r a while, your boss will
NOT use it as it will be too inconvenient and of very little business value
to him/her

Now, as I read, you have 3-tiers on THREE different boxes!!! Shows the
confusing nature of 3-tier to think that you need 3 boxes to run it.

If there is a long running application, stick all that logic on it's own web
server and combine that with the web logic. So you have 2 web servers and
one db server.

By using 3 different boxes, you only made twice as much work for yourself as
it took you 18 MONTHS!!!
Plus, you have this MIDDLE tier that is a single point of failure and of
which gives you lower performance in the first place and now there is 2 hops
to the presentation tier. Furthermore, now you have code in 3 different
places which will be great for debugging and performance tuning!!!

You got this 3-tier thing built in order to swap out data tiers...well guess
what, you already target all three databases anyway, so you essentially
defeated any need for a database tier anyway. You are not swapping in and
out the SAME stuff from Oracle to Sql Server every other day...so it's
pointless to design for this....Data from the Oracle DB is going to stay or
come from the Oracle DB and the same for the Sql Server and AS400.

Now, if you say you can easily switch, you should have used some of those 18
months to do the switch instead of building for the *possibility* of
switching.

But how many people are going to re-write all those stored procs and redo
all those tables when it's already running on the db's? zippo!!!




"David Noble" <da*********@ho tmail.com> wrote in message
news:59******** *************** ***@posting.goo gle.com...

We've been developing a web site using 3-tier architecture for 18
months now.
There is a common layer that defines the classes - using XML schemas.
The data layer acts as a wrapper to 3 databases - SQL Server, Oracle
and AS400.
The business layer exposes web services which communicate with the
front end, ASP.Net. All 3 tiers are on different boxes. This works
well.

Now I am leading a team to build a winforms app. I need some advice as
to the best way to proceed. The application will have 9 or 10 users
only.

Are there any 3-tier examples demonstrating remoting, or are web
methods the way to go. I am anticipating a lot of deployments after we
go live, so I want to keep as much as possible on the server, and not
have to go round re-installing every couple of days. Or are Web
Services still the way to go ?

How does deployment work ? Could I put a client exe on the user's PC
and remote in to the business tier which talks to the data tier on the
same box ?

Can anyone point me to some good tutorials to help ?

[Eddie de Bear]

Obviously you have never worked on a large project...
Quite often, clients will require large applications to
be written, either web or rich client.. Implement the
application in phases, each phase may take 2-3 months for
dev/test/release cycle, but the whole application (or
system) could easily take 18 months..

Why a windows app.. Simple.. Maybe the client has an
account package or something similar that they need to
integrate into an application.. This sort of integration
is far better done with a windows app (or linux desktop
app..)

As for 3 tiers on three different boxes.. Once again, you
have obviously never worked on a large project. Have you
heard of scalability??? If one of the tiers is performing
badly, then you can very easily throw in more boxes...
Which also has the advantage of removing the single point
of failure.. That is the advantage of the three tiered
architecture...

Debugging, not an issue, use the .NET remote debugging,
it's awsome... Works a treat..
Performance monitoring... Once again, not an issue, Throw
in performance counters, traces, logging and your all
set... It's really not that much of an issue, you just
have to understand debugging outside of the IDE...

I don't think he was talking about swapping the
databases... I think you'll find the application is
actually using data from 3 different datasources at the
same time.. Once again, sounds like you have never needed
to do that either... The best thing about this approach,
is the business layer does not need to worry about which
of the three datasources the data is comming from... Is
just uses it..

I hope this has helped in you understanding of N-Tiered
development...

Best Regards

Eddie de Bear
MCSD

-----Original Message-----
***NOTE: Don't take this message personal, it mainly directed to thestupidity of n-Tier idiots and the ignorance of the Microsoft architectureteam and those gurus and authors who regurgitate this nonsense without everquestions the real business need and value and PLUS actually do an ROI overthe different architectures.. .they are still stuck in this Windows DNAmodel....plus. ...it's only for Microsoft's Windows applicationsanyway....Micr osoft itself.....not you the customer as Microsoft = Windowswhich means please develop the architecture so Windows will still have someusefullness to the common surfer on the Internet.
***

18 Months for 3-tier!!!! Shows how incredibly weak n- Tier is.That's on par as SAP....any project, big or small going over a 9-12 monthsis out of touch with the real world.

Now, you are going to make a Windows Apps for only 9-10 users?
For what reason? Just what business advantage will you achieve making aWindows App?

Rich client??? Like what is it in that windows app that can't be done (andis worth doing) on a Web app.

What happens if a few of those 9 to 10 people say, "Hey I really need thison the Web, Or I need to access this somewhere else, like in the conferenceroom, which doesn't have the software installed, or we don't want itinstalled there".

People think that that Windows App give a RICH CLIENT, but just exactly whatis the BUSINESS Advantage that a Windows Client will give you? Unless youneed real time access, there is absolutely no need for it other than toimpress your boss with some pretty pictures...afte r a while, your boss willNOT use it as it will be too inconvenient and of very little business valueto him/her

Now, as I read, you have 3-tiers on THREE different boxes!!! Shows theconfusing nature of 3-tier to think that you need 3 boxes to run it.
If there is a long running application, stick all that logic on it's own webserver and combine that with the web logic. So you have 2 web servers andone db server.

By using 3 different boxes, you only made twice as much work for yourself asit took you 18 MONTHS!!!
Plus, you have this MIDDLE tier that is a single point of failure and ofwhich gives you lower performance in the first place and now there is 2 hopsto the presentation tier. Furthermore, now you have code in 3 differentplaces which will be great for debugging and performance tuning!!!
You got this 3-tier thing built in order to swap out data tiers...well guesswhat, you already target all three databases anyway, so you essentiallydefeated any need for a database tier anyway. You are not swapping in andout the SAME stuff from Oracle to Sql Server every other day...so it'spointless to design for this....Data from the Oracle DB is going to stay orcome from the Oracle DB and the same for the Sql Server and AS400.
Now, if you say you can easily switch, you should have used some of those 18months to do the switch instead of building for the *possibility* ofswitching.

But how many people are going to re-write all those stored procs and redoall those tables when it's already running on the db's? zippo!!!



"David Noble" <da*********@ho tmail.com> wrote in message
news:59******* *************** ****@posting.go ogle.com...

We've been developing a web site using 3-tier architecture for 18 months now.
There is a common layer that defines the classes - using XML schemas. The data layer acts as a wrapper to 3 databases - SQL Server, Oracle and AS400.
The business layer exposes web services which communicate with the front end, ASP.Net. All 3 tiers are on different boxes. This works well.

Now I am leading a team to build a winforms app. I need some advice as to the best way to proceed. The application will have 9 or 10 users only.

Are there any 3-tier examples demonstrating remoting, or are web methods the way to go. I am anticipating a lot of deployments after we go live, so I want to keep as much as possible on the server, and not have to go round re-installing every couple of days. Or are Web Services still the way to go ?

How does deployment work ? Could I put a client exe on the user's PC and remote in to the business tier which talks to the data tier on the same box ?

Can anyone point me to some good tutorials to help ?

.

[Steve S]

WELL...... that was a real pile of $H!T....... guess they never really
heard of extending a component to expose different interfaces..... some of
them as EnterpriseServi ce components..... and others via WebServices.... ..
and yet otheres via RemoteServices. .... and it all operates via the same
common code..... running below the covers.......

User the appropriate methods and parameters..... to gain performance.... .
keep things thin.... when crossing many hops...... push stuff via XML
when you need to jump through firewalls.... but binary for speed
inside...... where you probably will be moving large amounts of data......

DUH !!!!!!! Talk about being out of touch ? components..... . SMALL....
easy to implement..... not an issue....... and if I build the component
for 9 folks today...... tomorrow.... 90 could want that same
capability... IN SPADES !!!!

Keep your options open...... do the n-tier design..... don't fall into
the trap...... of embedding all the stuff into ASP.... as that limits your
deployment options...... and ability to extend......

Data-tier ? real kewl stuff..... ours works just fine..... and our
programmers only write SELECT statements..... the data-tier does all the
rest...... OH YEA...... no one writes our insert-update-deletes......
not even the WIZ.... as our experience is that the stored procedures might
be a little quicker..... than dynamic SQL..... but the expertise required
to create..... and MAINTAIN those..... is not worth the effort/price
difference..... . then again... we didn't spend months building out
stored procs.... just several days..... writing the Selects......

Oh yea.... that same data tier... does allow us to automatically cut
over..... to a back-up database...... if we can't contact our
primary...... but then again..... of what value is the datatier..... ?

I totally agree that three boxs is a little much..... when all of our runs
on a cluster..... for the business and data layers...... the GUIs.....
is run through a terminal server farm..... so we have TWO sets of
clusters..... with about 500 users nationwide..... .. running several
applications... ...
It isn't all of us that need to live with YOUR decisions...... .. you will
find a complete spectrum of answers...... N-Tier works...... and works
well...... how long it takes..... depends on your ramp time.....

"nospam" <[e-mail] > wrote in message
news:#4******** *****@TK2MSFTNG P11.phx.gbl...

***NOTE: Don't take this message personal, it mainly directed to the
stupidity of n-Tier idiots and the ignorance of the Microsoft architecture
team and those gurus and authors who regurgitate this nonsense without ever questions the real business need and value and PLUS actually do an ROI over the different architectures.. .they are still stuck in this Windows DNA
model....plus.. ..it's only for Microsoft's Windows applications
anyway....Micro soft itself.....not you the customer as Microsoft = Windows
which means please develop the architecture so Windows will still have some usefullness to the common surfer on the Internet.
***

18 Months for 3-tier!!!! Shows how incredibly weak n-Tier is.
That's on par as SAP....any project, big or small going over a 9-12 months
is out of touch with the real world.

Now, you are going to make a Windows Apps for only 9-10 users?

For what reason? Just what business advantage will you achieve making a
Windows App?

Rich client??? Like what is it in that windows app that can't be done (and is worth doing) on a Web app.

What happens if a few of those 9 to 10 people say, "Hey I really need this
on the Web, Or I need to access this somewhere else, like in the conference room, which doesn't have the software installed, or we don't want it
installed there".

People think that that Windows App give a RICH CLIENT, but just exactly what is the BUSINESS Advantage that a Windows Client will give you? Unless you need real time access, there is absolutely no need for it other than to
impress your boss with some pretty pictures...afte r a while, your boss will NOT use it as it will be too inconvenient and of very little business value to him/her

Now, as I read, you have 3-tiers on THREE different boxes!!! Shows the
confusing nature of 3-tier to think that you need 3 boxes to run it.

If there is a long running application, stick all that logic on it's own web server and combine that with the web logic. So you have 2 web servers and
one db server.

By using 3 different boxes, you only made twice as much work for yourself as it took you 18 MONTHS!!!
Plus, you have this MIDDLE tier that is a single point of failure and of
which gives you lower performance in the first place and now there is 2 hops to the presentation tier. Furthermore, now you have code in 3 different
places which will be great for debugging and performance tuning!!!

You got this 3-tier thing built in order to swap out data tiers...well guess what, you already target all three databases anyway, so you essentially
defeated any need for a database tier anyway. You are not swapping in and
out the SAME stuff from Oracle to Sql Server every other day...so it's
pointless to design for this....Data from the Oracle DB is going to stay or come from the Oracle DB and the same for the Sql Server and AS400.

Now, if you say you can easily switch, you should have used some of those 18 months to do the switch instead of building for the *possibility* of
switching.

But how many people are going to re-write all those stored procs and redo
all those tables when it's already running on the db's? zippo!!!




"David Noble" <da*********@ho tmail.com> wrote in message
news:59******** *************** ***@posting.goo gle.com...

We've been developing a web site using 3-tier architecture for 18
months now.
There is a common layer that defines the classes - using XML schemas.
The data layer acts as a wrapper to 3 databases - SQL Server, Oracle
and AS400.
The business layer exposes web services which communicate with the
front end, ASP.Net. All 3 tiers are on different boxes. This works
well.

Now I am leading a team to build a winforms app. I need some advice as
to the best way to proceed. The application will have 9 or 10 users
only.

Are there any 3-tier examples demonstrating remoting, or are web
methods the way to go. I am anticipating a lot of deployments after we
go live, so I want to keep as much as possible on the server, and not
have to go round re-installing every couple of days. Or are Web
Services still the way to go ?

How does deployment work ? Could I put a client exe on the user's PC
and remote in to the business tier which talks to the data tier on the
same box ?

Can anyone point me to some good tutorials to help ?

[nospam]

If what you say is sooo true, why do 60% of all CIO think that IT sucks.
If what you say is sooo true, why did McDonald's fail.
http://www.baselinemag.com/article2/...1184848,00.asp

Try not to argue as their was an argument before, and all I had to do is
simply point out all the failures that are OH SO published on the
WEB.......For every published failure, there is about 1000 more unpublished.
Keep your options open? You are the one who is so closed to simplicity.

Data-tier ? real kewl stuff..... ours works just fine..... and our
programmers only write SELECT statements..... the data-tier does all the
rest...... OH YEA...... no one writes our insert-update-deletes...... not even the WIZ.... as our experience is that the stored procedures might be a little quicker..... than dynamic SQL..... but the expertise required to create..... and MAINTAIN those..... is not worth the effort/price
difference..... . then again... we didn't spend months building out
stored procs.... just several days..... writing the Selects......
PLUS, YOU think you are SOOO smart, that you don't even know SQL. I know
SQL.
BUT you don't! Very ODD....seems more like stubborness.

I can easily write SQL and it's better for a number of reasons, but then you
come right back around and say n-Tier is sooooo great and stored procs suck.
How ironic, Mr. N-Tier.

You don't know crap about enterprise systems.

See INLINE BELOW for more of my comments.

"Steve S" <be*********@ho tmail.com> wrote in message
news:%2******** ********@TK2MSF TNGP11.phx.gbl. .. WELL...... that was a real pile of $H!T....... guess they never really
heard of extending a component to expose different interfaces..... some of them as EnterpriseServi ce components..... and others via WebServices.... .. and yet otheres via RemoteServices. .... and it all operates via the same
common code..... running below the covers.......

User the appropriate methods and parameters..... to gain performance.... .
keep things thin.... when crossing many hops...... push stuff via XML
when you need to jump through firewalls.... but binary for speed
inside...... where you probably will be moving large amounts of data......

WHOA!! wait a second....here we are talking about performance, but below you
say don't use Stored Procs!
Yet with Stored Procs don't need to pass that much data around as a SQL
Query? Network bandwidth, right?

You are writing so much code but then you can't even write INSERT and UPDATE
stored procs.....that' s like saying your can add and multiply, BUT you can't
substract and divide.

DUH !!!!!!! Talk about being out of touch ? components..... . SMALL....
easy to implement..... not an issue....... and if I build the component
for 9 folks today...... tomorrow.... 90 could want that same
capability... IN SPADES !!!!

Keep your options open...... do the n-tier design..... don't fall into
the trap...... of embedding all the stuff into ASP.... as that limits your deployment options...... and ability to extend......

Data-tier ? real kewl stuff..... ours works just fine..... and our
programmers only write SELECT statements..... the data-tier does all the
rest...... OH YEA...... no one writes our insert-update-deletes...... not even the WIZ.... as our experience is that the stored procedures might be a little quicker..... than dynamic SQL..... but the expertise required to create..... and MAINTAIN those..... is not worth the effort/price
difference..... . then again... we didn't spend months building out
stored procs.... just several days..... writing the Selects......

Oh yea.... that same data tier... does allow us to automatically cut
over..... to a back-up database...... if we can't contact our
primary...... but then again..... of what value is the datatier..... ?
I totally agree that three boxs is a little much..... when all of our runs on a cluster..... for the business and data layers...... the GUIs.....
is run through a terminal server farm..... so we have TWO sets of
clusters..... with about 500 users nationwide..... .. running several
applications... ...
It isn't all of us that need to live with YOUR decisions...... .. you will find a complete spectrum of answers...... N-Tier works...... and works
well...... how long it takes..... depends on your ramp time.....

"nospam" <[e-mail] > wrote in message
news:#4******** *****@TK2MSFTNG P11.phx.gbl...

***NOTE: Don't take this message personal, it mainly directed to the
stupidity of n-Tier idiots and the ignorance of the Microsoft architecture team and those gurus and authors who regurgitate this nonsense without ever

questions the real business need and value and PLUS actually do an ROI

over

the different architectures.. .they are still stuck in this Windows DNA
model....plus.. ..it's only for Microsoft's Windows applications
anyway....Micro soft itself.....not you the customer as Microsoft = Windows which means please develop the architecture so Windows will still have

some

usefullness to the common surfer on the Internet.
***

18 Months for 3-tier!!!! Shows how incredibly weak n-Tier is.
That's on par as SAP....any project, big or small going over a 9-12 months is out of touch with the real world.

Now, you are going to make a Windows Apps for only 9-10 users?

For what reason? Just what business advantage will you achieve making a
Windows App?

Rich client??? Like what is it in that windows app that can't be done

(and

is worth doing) on a Web app.

What happens if a few of those 9 to 10 people say, "Hey I really need this on the Web, Or I need to access this somewhere else, like in the

conference

room, which doesn't have the software installed, or we don't want it
installed there".

People think that that Windows App give a RICH CLIENT, but just exactly

what

is the BUSINESS Advantage that a Windows Client will give you? Unless you

need real time access, there is absolutely no need for it other than to
impress your boss with some pretty pictures...afte r a while, your boss will

NOT use it as it will be too inconvenient and of very little business

value

to him/her

Now, as I read, you have 3-tiers on THREE different boxes!!! Shows the
confusing nature of 3-tier to think that you need 3 boxes to run it.

If there is a long running application, stick all that logic on it's own

web

server and combine that with the web logic. So you have 2 web servers

and one db server.

By using 3 different boxes, you only made twice as much work for yourself as

it took you 18 MONTHS!!!
Plus, you have this MIDDLE tier that is a single point of failure and of
which gives you lower performance in the first place and now there is 2 hops

to the presentation tier. Furthermore, now you have code in 3 different
places which will be great for debugging and performance tuning!!!

You got this 3-tier thing built in order to swap out data tiers...well

guess

what, you already target all three databases anyway, so you essentially
defeated any need for a database tier anyway. You are not swapping in

and out the SAME stuff from Oracle to Sql Server every other day...so it's
pointless to design for this....Data from the Oracle DB is going to stay

or

come from the Oracle DB and the same for the Sql Server and AS400.

Now, if you say you can easily switch, you should have used some of those 18

months to do the switch instead of building for the *possibility* of
switching.

But how many people are going to re-write all those stored procs and

redo all those tables when it's already running on the db's? zippo!!!




"David Noble" <da*********@ho tmail.com> wrote in message
news:59******** *************** ***@posting.goo gle.com...

We've been developing a web site using 3-tier architecture for 18
months now.
There is a common layer that defines the classes - using XML schemas.
The data layer acts as a wrapper to 3 databases - SQL Server, Oracle
and AS400.
The business layer exposes web services which communicate with the
front end, ASP.Net. All 3 tiers are on different boxes. This works
well.

Now I am leading a team to build a winforms app. I need some advice as
to the best way to proceed. The application will have 9 or 10 users
only.

Are there any 3-tier examples demonstrating remoting, or are web
methods the way to go. I am anticipating a lot of deployments after we
go live, so I want to keep as much as possible on the server, and not
have to go round re-installing every couple of days. Or are Web
Services still the way to go ?

How does deployment work ? Could I put a client exe on the user's PC
and remote in to the business tier which talks to the data tier on the
same box ?

Can anyone point me to some good tutorials to help ?

[nospam]

COMMENTS INLINE FOR THE THESE SO-CALLED ENTERPRISE ARCHITECTS

"Eddie de Bear" <an*******@disc ussions.microso ft.com> wrote in message
news:0b******** *************** *****@phx.gbl.. .

Obviously you have never worked on a large project...
Quite often, clients will require large applications to
be written, either web or rich client.. Implement the
application in phases, each phase may take 2-3 months for
dev/test/release cycle, but the whole application (or
system) could easily take 18 months..
Ahhh yes, the SLOW antiquated dev/test/release method....

*************** *************** *************** *************** *************** *
**
OH by the way, in the REAL world, all of the TOP and BOTTOM IT firms skip
the "TEST" cycle cause they are SOOOOO FAR behind in the schedule, they will
eventually lose the contract if they don't DELIVER something.....
*************** *************** *************** *************** *************** *
**

That's the REALITY......

any IT project taking over 12 months is stupid as the design specs have
already changed in the business.


Why a windows app.. Simple.. Maybe the client has an
account package or something similar that they need to
integrate into an application.. This sort of integration
is far better done with a windows app (or linux desktop
app..)

Of what REAL value is this Windows client to the END Customer when it can be
done on the Web?


As for 3 tiers on three different boxes.. Once again, you
have obviously never worked on a large project. Have you
heard of scalability??? If one of the tiers is performing
badly, then you can very easily throw in more boxes...
Which also has the advantage of removing the single point
of failure.. That is the advantage of the three tiered
architecture...
Wrong!!...if one of the tiers is BROKEN, you don't replace it with another
copy of what's BROKEN
Performing BADLY and being BROKEN have their DIFFERENCES.

One of the biggest reasons it's performance badly is because the thing is so
OOP'd to death and so-called COM'ed out, it's creating object for even the
simpliest of tasks.

Then, cause you got this object calling this (1)object and this (2)object
and this (3)object and this (4)object and this (5)object, you eventually
FORGOT what you wanted to do in the first place....HA HA HA....Like you
really know how to do Enterprise systems.......


Debugging, not an issue, use the .NET remote debugging,
it's awsome... Works a treat..
Performance monitoring... Once again, not an issue, Throw
in performance counters, traces, logging and your all
set... It's really not that much of an issue, you just
have to understand debugging outside of the IDE...
Performance is not that easy after you done the coding. You still have to
RE-CODE again to fix all that crappy n-Tier architecture in the first place
SO in the end, you DON'T have n-Tier architecture... .oh well, you just have
to learn the hard way.....



I don't think he was talking about swapping the
databases... I think you'll find the application is
actually using data from 3 different datasources at the
same time.. Once again, sounds like you have never needed
to do that either... The best thing about this approach,
is the business layer does not need to worry about which
of the three datasources the data is comming from... Is
just uses it..

The business layer is a load of crap cause no one changes databases in the
first place for the same business functionality.. .....If you are going to
change the database, you are going to re-write the sprocs anyway on this
database port....you are basically designing in this modularity at the cost
of performance as well as reliability of the code in the first place.

The database modularity feature is a feature that has SO LITTLE BUSINESS
VALUE as it doesn't happen that often in the business world in the first
place.......I don't know of anyone who goes out and spends money on Oracle
and then switches to DB2 and throws out the Oracle License.

.....if anything, it's more cost efficient to buy faster hardware, keep the
license that you can't sell back to Oracle in the first place and install
the new server. That, in the end, is more cost efficient. It's called use
what you just purchased and can't return.

But let's say they switch to SQL Server from Oracle....now what are they
going to do with that Oracle DB then? They just paid tens of thousands for
it. Now you are saying, "Let's build a data-tier to be able to SWITCH BACK
from SQL Server to Oracle." That's not one, but TWO switches!!!

That's LUNACY...make up your mind!!!!
If you are going to make a switch, one of the things in deciding whether to
switch is going to be performance in the first place. And if it's
performance, why do you turn right back around and advocate a much less
performing n-Tier architecture??? ?

At first, you say the reason to switch is due to performance(or size), so
you go from SQL to Oracle. Now you say it's COST/PEFORMANCE, as you can get
two SQL Servers for the price of one Oracle. So you switch back!

The cost of the PORT is going to gobble up all the so-called cost savings of
this "so-called" modular data tier in the first place cause IT's NEVER that
easy..

And if your are big enterprise, they already have their code in place so
they are not going to need Mr. IT shops
modular-code-that-can-work-with-any-database, as they already picked a
database and have it running in production anyway.
Please stop with these silly arguments as I can easily use Microsoft OWN
marketing slogan against itself and I havent' even mentioned that one.......

See this threads....this guy lost big time.....

You as well as all MVP's, MCSD, Gurus have soooo much to learn.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Re...phx.gbl&rnum=1
JUDGEMENT DAY FOR OOP COMPLEXITY Re: Reasons for a 3-tier ...

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...ublic.dotnet.*
Hey eBay..Let's talk about OOP and Reliability.... .....Re: Reasons for a
3-tier achitecture for Web? Why

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...ublic.dotnet.*
Now, ask yourself why do MOST IT projects FAIL?

What's so similar in all these big projects?

Well what's similar is you are all using this same silly n-Tier OOP design
that you learned in Windows and are applying it to the Web.....PLUS, you
think that people want BOTH, Windows and WEB....wrong, they don't and can't
afford it in the first place.
Here, another FAILURE

http://www.baselinemag.com/article2/...1184848,00.asp

I hope this has helped in you understanding of N-Tiered
development...

Best Regards

Eddie de Bear
MCSD

-----Original Message-----
***NOTE: Don't take this message personal, it mainly

directed to the

stupidity of n-Tier idiots and the ignorance of the

Microsoft architecture

team and those gurus and authors who regurgitate this

nonsense without ever

questions the real business need and value and PLUS

actually do an ROI over

the different architectures.. .they are still stuck in

this Windows DNA

model....plus. ...it's only for Microsoft's Windows

applications

anyway....Micr osoft itself.....not you the customer as

Microsoft = Windows

which means please develop the architecture so Windows

will still have some

usefullness to the common surfer on the Internet.
***

18 Months for 3-tier!!!! Shows how incredibly weak n-

Tier is.

That's on par as SAP....any project, big or small going

over a 9-12 months

is out of touch with the real world.

Now, you are going to make a Windows Apps for only 9-10

users?

For what reason? Just what business advantage will you

achieve making a

Windows App?

Rich client??? Like what is it in that windows app that

can't be done (and

is worth doing) on a Web app.

What happens if a few of those 9 to 10 people say, "Hey

I really need this

on the Web, Or I need to access this somewhere else,

like in the conference

room, which doesn't have the software installed, or we

don't want it

installed there".

People think that that Windows App give a RICH CLIENT,

but just exactly what

is the BUSINESS Advantage that a Windows Client will

give you? Unless you

need real time access, there is absolutely no need for

it other than to

impress your boss with some pretty pictures...afte r a

while, your boss will

NOT use it as it will be too inconvenient and of very

little business value

to him/her

Now, as I read, you have 3-tiers on THREE different

boxes!!! Shows the

confusing nature of 3-tier to think that you need 3

boxes to run it.

If there is a long running application, stick all that

logic on it's own web

server and combine that with the web logic. So you have

2 web servers and

one db server.

By using 3 different boxes, you only made twice as much

work for yourself as

it took you 18 MONTHS!!!
Plus, you have this MIDDLE tier that is a single point

of failure and of

which gives you lower performance in the first place and

now there is 2 hops

to the presentation tier. Furthermore, now you have code

in 3 different

places which will be great for debugging and performance

tuning!!!

You got this 3-tier thing built in order to swap out

data tiers...well guess

what, you already target all three databases anyway, so

you essentially

defeated any need for a database tier anyway. You are

not swapping in and

out the SAME stuff from Oracle to Sql Server every other

day...so it's

pointless to design for this....Data from the Oracle DB

is going to stay or

come from the Oracle DB and the same for the Sql Server

and AS400.

Now, if you say you can easily switch, you should have

used some of those 18

months to do the switch instead of building for the

*possibility* of

switching.

But how many people are going to re-write all those

stored procs and redo

all those tables when it's already running on the db's?

zippo!!!

"David Noble" <da*********@ho tmail.com> wrote in message
news:59******* *************** ****@posting.go ogle.com...

We've been developing a web site using 3-tier architecture for 18 months now.
There is a common layer that defines the classes - using XML schemas. The data layer acts as a wrapper to 3 databases - SQL Server, Oracle and AS400.
The business layer exposes web services which communicate with the front end, ASP.Net. All 3 tiers are on different boxes. This works well.

Now I am leading a team to build a winforms app. I need some advice as to the best way to proceed. The application will have 9 or 10 users only.

Are there any 3-tier examples demonstrating remoting, or are web methods the way to go. I am anticipating a lot of deployments after we go live, so I want to keep as much as possible on the server, and not have to go round re-installing every couple of days. Or are Web Services still the way to go ?

How does deployment work ? Could I put a client exe on the user's PC and remote in to the business tier which talks to the data tier on the same box ?

Can anyone point me to some good tutorials to help ?

.

[David Noble]

> 18 Months for 3-tier!!!! Shows how incredibly weak n-Tier is.

That's on par as SAP....any project, big or small going over a 9-12 months
is out of touch with the real world.
I feel I have to respond to this rant. 18 months ? I should also tell
you that we've gone from 1 up to 15 developers working on this at any
one time, with a core of 10! This is because the business is
incredibly complicated. To give you an idea, the Oracle system alone
holds 3500 tables, and the business logic behind the AS400 system is
40 years old!

On the hardware side, by using 3-tier we've been able to site our web
servers externally, at an ISP, and have our app servers in-house, both
as part of web farms. If we need to scale out, this in now easy. The
business is time-critical. We can't just ask the customers to wait. We
just buy another server and add it to the cluster.
Now, you are going to make a Windows Apps for only 9-10 users?

For what reason? Just what business advantage will you achieve making a
Windows App?
OK. Part of the system includes temps swiping in as they turn up for
work and leave. I don't believe you can do that through a browser. And
it has to work standalone, when the network fails.
Rich client??? Like what is it in that windows app that can't be
done (and is worth doing) on a Web app.

What happens if a few of those 9 to 10 people say, "Hey I really need this
on the Web, Or I need to access this somewhere else, like in the conference
room, which doesn't have the software installed, or we don't want it
installed there".

People think that that Windows App give a RICH CLIENT, but just exactly what
is the BUSINESS Advantage that a Windows Client will give you? Unless you
need real time access, there is absolutely no need for it other than to
impress your boss with some pretty pictures...afte r a while, your boss will
NOT use it as it will be too inconvenient and of very little business value
to him/her
So you'd always build a web app no matter what ? Winforms does give
you a richer UI. And if we used dot net remoting, you could use it
away from the office. And if we use a smart client, deployment is easy
too. You should read the articles that were recommended in the
previous post.

Now, as I read, you have 3-tiers on THREE different boxes!!! Shows the
confusing nature of 3-tier to think that you need 3 boxes to run it.

Actually 10 boxes. But we could scale out the app farm or either of
the web farms.

2 external web servers,
external state server,
2 internal web servers,
2 app servers,
1 SQL Server,
1 AS400,
1 Oracle
By using 3 different boxes, you only made twice as much work for yourself as
it took you 18 MONTHS!!!
And it's not finished yet! We've got another 2 years of work in the
pipeline.
The business itself has just started to take off because we've put it
on the web!

Plus, you have this MIDDLE tier that is a single point of failure and of
which gives you lower performance in the first place and now there is 2 hops
to the presentation tier. Furthermore, now you have code in 3 different
places which will be great for debugging and performance tuning!!!
That's why we've got 2 app servers. So if one fails, we can swap it
out without too many wories..
You got this 3-tier thing built in order to swap out data tiers...well guess
what, you already target all three databases anyway, so you essentially
defeated any need for a database tier anyway. You are not swapping in and
out the SAME stuff from Oracle to Sql Server every other day...so it's
pointless to design for this....Data from the Oracle DB is going to stay or
come from the Oracle DB and the same for the Sql Server and AS400.

Now, if you say you can easily switch, you should have used some of those 18
months to do the switch instead of building for the *possibility* of
switching.

But how many people are going to re-write all those stored procs and redo
all those tables when it's already running on the db's? zippo!!!

We could have redesigned the database around a new SQL Server, but
that really would be a large project.

I guess you presumed it was just me taking my sweet old time.

[Steve S]

The mouse from the corner... slides the thumbnail over to the leg of a
chair... gets on top... and clears it's throat and takes a sip of
water... and begins to speak...

Let me make this VERY CLEAR........ Your arguements..... are as hollow as
your brain....... most of the CIOs believe what their directors tell
them...... and most of them came from big blue...... they also need to
stop and smell the roses.....

"nospam" <[e-mail] > wrote in message
news:u1******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...

If what you say is sooo true, why do 60% of all CIO think that IT sucks.
If what you say is sooo true, why did McDonald's fail.
http://www.baselinemag.com/article2/...1184848,00.asp

As for your link........ LMAO.... you should read the reference before it
makes your point...... and I quote.....

In 1991, after looking at commercially available point-of-sale registers
from vendors such as Panasonic and PAR Microsystems, Dill says, McDonald's
decided to go it alone and have systems integrators build the register
terminals for its U.S. stores from off-the-shelf PC and peripheral
technology.

[ 1991... LOL and your using this to make an arguement for today's systems
?]

As a result, McDonald's was able to hold the cost of POS systems down to
roughly $15,000 to $20,000 per restaurant, according to Dill, cutting the
cost in half. [ sounds like a success to me ]

The software McDonald's developed, called PC POS, is a two-part system. The
actual point-of-sale terminals at the counter and drive-through window run
on software written for Microsoft MS-DOS. It provided "software
functionality for cash registers" says Dill, "like taking orders,
communicating to cooking operations and giving change." [nice work for such
a limited OS of the day]

PC POS and the in-store processor did manage to give McDonald's its first
real grip on its supply-chain data-and with the cancellation of McDonald's
Innovate project, it remains as the backbone of McDonald's system for
collecting operations data from its restaurants. [WOW.........]

OK... enough of the quotes from your FAILURE STORY.......... I have seen
enough of this failure to fail story.....
Keep your options open? You are the one who is so closed to simplicity.
PLUS, YOU think you are SOOO smart, that you don't even know SQL. I know SQL. BUT you don't! Very ODD....seems more like stubborness.

I can easily write SQL and it's better for a number of reasons, but then you come right back around and say n-Tier is sooooo great and stored procs suck. How ironic, Mr. N-Tier.

If I have a very smart DAL.... I can even get my junior developers into the
act of writing SQL code and business logic... I can use my real wiz kids
for the important things... like mentoring the young ones... on how to
write good applications... [and like a few other folks on this NG, you
failed to read the message, just blew out smoke]... the TCO is much better
on SQL based systems... vs stored procs..... OH YEA... does that title
come with a NameTag and a raise ?
WHOA!! wait a second....here we are talking about performance, but below you say don't use Stored Procs!
Yet with Stored Procs don't need to pass that much data around as a SQL
Query? Network bandwidth, right?
LMAO... you are a real class act....... increased bandwidth ? What a
total joke...... after the call into the database with the SQL call.....
how much traffic is there until you get the results ? how many hops is it
going to take... and... how are you going to get the databack.. if it
doesn't move data around ?

OH HELL.. let's get real to the point......... how many linear feet of
cable is it going to travel through at what bandwidth ? and compair that
to the traffic required for a 5 parameter stored proc....... and when you
finished...... come back and post the results...... PLEASE ENLIGHTEN
US........

The real benefit of stored procs is it is already bound to the database...
the DB as already determined the access path it is going to take and
optimized the request for the indexes... so for each call you make into
the database, with dynamic SQL you are paying a few extra milliseconds
simply because this extra work needs to be performed..... once it gets past
there... it is all the same...... but then again..... you already know
this..... and figured it was way beyond our technical ability to handle
this extreme knowledge.....
You are writing so much code but then you can't even write INSERT and UPDATE stored procs.....that' s like saying your can add and multiply, BUT you can't substract and divide.

I never said I couldn't write them....... Why would you bang on a boulder
all day long with a small hammer... just to break it.... when you can do
the job in 30 seconds with C4 ? EFFECTIVE.... but messy.....
You have your opinion.... and others have different ones..... they all
can live in this world together...... without issue......

Yoiu obviously have a very high opinion of yourself.... but you also make
some very bold statements about me... and other folks.... and don't even
have the balls to post without hiding behind an alias.... almost like your
afraid to be known.... Do you have an identity crisis going on ? I know
a good doctor for that...... [oh shut up.... you don't know a thing] {and
who the F*&K asked you ?}

Take some of that BS you posted..... and throw it on your roses......
maybe they will bloom..... and give you something better to smell than that
BS......

The mouse steps down from the thumbnail.... and slides it back to his
mouse hole...... Excuse me..... but all this discussion has made me a
little hungry..... I think I will go cut me some cheese....... (as it
snickers....... .)

[Eddie de Bear]

Dude,

Really... I've been working on N-Tier architecture for
several years now, as well as deploying that architecture
across various numbers of machines. (Sometimes all
deployed on one machine, other times deployed across
10+)...

What I have learned over the years is very simple.. Some
N-Tier projects fail simply because the developers that
are selected for the projects cannot understand simple
programming.

Yes, I'll admin there is a tendency to "Over OOP" an
application, that can be an issue, but that normally
comes from inexperience... N-Tier and OOP are still
fairly new to many developers/architects, and as such is
miss used way to often...

Don't judge a programming methodolody on it's failure..
There are always failures.. Learn waht you can, try them
for yourself, and have a good look at how many Success
Stories there are.. You'll probably be very supprised...

You say "What happens if a tier breaks.. " simpe.. Fix
it... What happens if you single layer application
breaks.. easy.. Fix...

And yes, project do quite often take > 1 year for
development... Imagine a government department, that
always has changing requirements... The project will
never finish.. that's why government departments
generally have very large IT departments.. Laws Change,
regulations change, that's something we have to deal
with... The N-Tier achitecture helps handle these
changes, without having to root through a single project
consisting of thousands and possibly millions of lines of
code...

As for windows forms, what can you do for a client that
you can't with web.. simple... Try implementing a project
management system that allows dragging around resources,
try getting a user to select a single record form a large
set of data (It's not always possible to do with a drop
down combo :P ).. What about Imaging...

Yes, I am well aware of all the technologies that you can
use to do this sort of thing using a web based client,
but true usability is in windows apps...

Lets also talk development methodologies.. .

DEV/TEST/Release.. yep, it's old, so what.. it works...
To many companies ignore the testing, they release their
apps and guess what.. The app falls on it's arse,
management yells, and the project gets cancelled... then
someone mentions it was an N-Tier project... Next thing
you know, there is a case study on the internet about how
bad N-Tier is, all because management decided it was to
costly to do testing...
Testing is required, it's not an option.... TEST TEST
TEST...

You don't need to follow the strict DEV/TEST, Partial
testing can be done while still in development. Unit
testing can be done, and some usability testing can be
done.. It really doesn't have to cost alot...

I think maybe you need to move around a little more, do
some contracting, get some more experience, and get out
of the little two bit company that you work for.. Because
obviously it hiding you from the real world..

Last but not least, don't believe everything you read on
the internet, especially if it's someone elses opinion on
slashdot :p

-----Original Message-----
COMMENTS INLINE FOR THE THESE SO-CALLED ENTERPRISE ARCHITECTS
"Eddie de Bear" <an*******@disc ussions.microso ft.com> wrote in messagenews:0b******* *************** ******@phx.gbl. ..

Obviously you have never worked on a large project...
Quite often, clients will require large applications to
be written, either web or rich client.. Implement the
application in phases, each phase may take 2-3 months for

dev/test/release cycle, but the whole application (or
system) could easily take 18 months..
Ahhh yes, the SLOW antiquated dev/test/release method....

************** *************** *************** *************

*************** ******
OH by the way, in the REAL world, all of the TOP and BOTTOM IT firms skipthe "TEST" cycle cause they are SOOOOO FAR behind in the schedule, they willeventually lose the contract if they don't DELIVER something.....************** *************** *************** ************* *************** ******

That's the REALITY......

any IT project taking over 12 months is stupid as the design specs havealready changed in the business.

Why a windows app.. Simple.. Maybe the client has an
account package or something similar that they need to
integrate into an application.. This sort of integration is far better done with a windows app (or linux desktop
app..)

Of what REAL value is this Windows client to the END

Customer when it can bedone on the Web?

As for 3 tiers on three different boxes.. Once again, you have obviously never worked on a large project. Have you heard of scalability??? If one of the tiers is performing badly, then you can very easily throw in more boxes...
Which also has the advantage of removing the single point of failure.. That is the advantage of the three tiered
architecture...
Wrong!!...if one of the tiers is BROKEN, you don't

replace it with anothercopy of what's BROKEN
Performing BADLY and being BROKEN have their DIFFERENCES.

One of the biggest reasons it's performance badly is because the thing is soOOP'd to death and so-called COM'ed out, it's creating object for even thesimpliest of tasks.

Then, cause you got this object calling this (1)object and this (2)objectand this (3)object and this (4)object and this (5) object, you eventuallyFORGOT what you wanted to do in the first place....HA HA HA....Like youreally know how to do Enterprise systems.......

Debugging, not an issue, use the .NET remote debugging,
it's awsome... Works a treat..
Performance monitoring... Once again, not an issue, Throw in performance counters, traces, logging and your all
set... It's really not that much of an issue, you just
have to understand debugging outside of the IDE...
Performance is not that easy after you done the

coding. You still have toRE-CODE again to fix all that crappy n-Tier architecture in the first placeSO in the end, you DON'T have n-Tier architecture... .oh well, you just haveto learn the hard way.....

I don't think he was talking about swapping the
databases... I think you'll find the application is
actually using data from 3 different datasources at the
same time.. Once again, sounds like you have never needed to do that either... The best thing about this approach, is the business layer does not need to worry about which of the three datasources the data is comming from... Is
just uses it..

The business layer is a load of crap cause no one

changes databases in thefirst place for the same business functionality.. .....If you are going tochange the database, you are going to re-write the sprocs anyway on thisdatabase port....you are basically designing in this modularity at the costof performance as well as reliability of the code in the first place.
The database modularity feature is a feature that has SO LITTLE BUSINESSVALUE as it doesn't happen that often in the business world in the firstplace....... I don't know of anyone who goes out and spends money on Oracleand then switches to DB2 and throws out the Oracle License.
.....if anything, it's more cost efficient to buy faster hardware, keep thelicense that you can't sell back to Oracle in the first place and installthe new server. That, in the end, is more cost efficient. It's called usewhat you just purchased and can't return.

But let's say they switch to SQL Server from Oracle....now what are theygoing to do with that Oracle DB then? They just paid tens of thousands forit. Now you are saying, "Let's build a data-tier to be able to SWITCH BACKfrom SQL Server to Oracle." That's not one, but TWO switches!!!
That's LUNACY...make up your mind!!!!
If you are going to make a switch, one of the things in deciding whether toswitch is going to be performance in the first place. And if it'sperformance, why do you turn right back around and advocate a much lessperforming n-Tier architecture??? ?

At first, you say the reason to switch is due to performance(or size), soyou go from SQL to Oracle. Now you say it's COST/PEFORMANCE, as you can gettwo SQL Servers for the price of one Oracle. So you switch back!
The cost of the PORT is going to gobble up all the so- called cost savings ofthis "so-called" modular data tier in the first place cause IT's NEVER thateasy..

And if your are big enterprise, they already have their code in place sothey are not going to need Mr. IT shops
modular-code-that-can-work-with-any-database, as they already picked adatabase and have it running in production anyway.
Please stop with these silly arguments as I can easily use Microsoft OWNmarketing slogan against itself and I havent' even mentioned that one.......
See this threads....this guy lost big time.....

You as well as all MVP's, MCSD, Gurus have soooo much to learn.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Reasons+for+a+3- tier+achitectur e+for+Web%
3F+Why+group:mi crosoft.public. dotnet.*&hl=en& lr=&ie=UTF-
8&group=microso ft.public.dotne t.*&selm=%23lGP JeXZDHA.1640%
40TK2MSFTNGP10. phx.gbl&rnum=1

JUDGEMENT DAY FOR OOP COMPLEXITY Re: Reasons for a 3- tier ...
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF- 8&threadm=enkCV qUfDHA.3284%
40tk2msftngp13. phx.gbl&rnum=3& prev=/groups%3Fhl%3De n%26lr%
3D%26ie%3DISO-8859-1%26q%3DReasons %2Bfor%2Ba%2B3-tier%
2Bachitecture%2 Bfor%2BWeb%253F %2BWhy%26meta%3 Dgroup%
253Dmicrosoft.p ublic.dotnet.*

Hey eBay..Let's talk about OOP and Reliability.... .....Re: Reasons for a3-tier achitecture for Web? Why

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF- 8&threadm=%23Qb up4PdDHA.568%
40TK2MSFTNGP11. phx.gbl&rnum=4& prev=/groups%3Fhl%3De n%26lr%
3D%26ie%3DISO-8859-1%26q%3DReasons %2Bfor%2Ba%2B3-tier%
2Bachitecture%2 Bfor%2BWeb%253F %2BWhy%26meta%3 Dgroup%
253Dmicrosoft.p ublic.dotnet.*

Now, ask yourself why do MOST IT projects FAIL?

What's so similar in all these big projects?

Well what's similar is you are all using this same silly n-Tier OOP designthat you learned in Windows and are applying it to the Web.....PLUS, youthink that people want BOTH, Windows and WEB....wrong, they don't and can'tafford it in the first place.
Here, another FAILURE

http://www.baselinemag.com/article2/...1184848,00.asp

I hope this has helped in you understanding of N-Tiered
development...

Best Regards

Eddie de Bear
MCSD

>-----Original Message-----
>***NOTE: Don't take this message personal, it mainly

directed to the

>stupidity of n-Tier idiots and the ignorance of the

Microsoft architecture

>team and those gurus and authors who regurgitate this

nonsense without ever

>questions the real business need and value and PLUS

actually do an ROI over

>the different architectures.. .they are still stuck in

this Windows DNA

>model....plus. ...it's only for Microsoft's Windows

applications

>anyway....Micr osoft itself.....not you the customer as

Microsoft = Windows

>which means please develop the architecture so Windows

will still have some

>usefullness to the common surfer on the Internet.
>***
>
>18 Months for 3-tier!!!! Shows how incredibly weak n-

Tier is.

>That's on par as SAP....any project, big or small

going over a 9-12 months

>is out of touch with the real world.
>
>Now, you are going to make a Windows Apps for only 9-

10 users?

>
>For what reason? Just what business advantage will you

achieve making a

>Windows App?
>
>Rich client??? Like what is it in that windows app

that can't be done (and

>is worth doing) on a Web app.
>
>What happens if a few of those 9 to 10 people

say, "Hey I really need this

>on the Web, Or I need to access this somewhere else,

like in the conference

>room, which doesn't have the software installed, or we

don't want it

>installed there".
>
>People think that that Windows App give a RICH CLIENT,

but just exactly what

>is the BUSINESS Advantage that a Windows Client will

give you? Unless you

>need real time access, there is absolutely no need for

it other than to

>impress your boss with some pretty pictures...afte r a

while, your boss will

>NOT use it as it will be too inconvenient and of very

little business value

>to him/her
>
>Now, as I read, you have 3-tiers on THREE different

boxes!!! Shows the

>confusing nature of 3-tier to think that you need 3

boxes to run it.

>
>If there is a long running application, stick all that

logic on it's own web

>server and combine that with the web logic. So you

have 2 web servers and

>one db server.
>
>By using 3 different boxes, you only made twice as

much work for yourself as

>it took you 18 MONTHS!!!
>Plus, you have this MIDDLE tier that is a single point

of failure and of

>which gives you lower performance in the first place

and now there is 2 hops

>to the presentation tier. Furthermore, now you have

code in 3 different

>places which will be great for debugging and

performance tuning!!!

>
>You got this 3-tier thing built in order to swap out

data tiers...well guess

>what, you already target all three databases anyway,

so you essentially

>defeated any need for a database tier anyway. You are

not swapping in and

>out the SAME stuff from Oracle to Sql Server every

other day...so it's

>pointless to design for this....Data from the Oracle

DB is going to stay or

>come from the Oracle DB and the same for the Sql

Server and AS400.

>
>Now, if you say you can easily switch, you should have

used some of those 18

>months to do the switch instead of building for the

*possibility* of

>switching.
>
>But how many people are going to re-write all those

stored procs and redo

>all those tables when it's already running on the

db's? zippo!!!

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"David Noble" <da*********@ho tmail.com> wrote in

message

news:59******* *************** ****@posting.go ogle.com... >> We've been developing a web site using 3-tier

architecture for 18

>> months now.
>> There is a common layer that defines the classes -

using XML schemas.

>> The data layer acts as a wrapper to 3 databases -

SQL Server, Oracle

>> and AS400.
>> The business layer exposes web services which

communicate with the

>> front end, ASP.Net. All 3 tiers are on different

boxes. This works

>> well.
>>
>> Now I am leading a team to build a winforms app. I

need some advice as

>> to the best way to proceed. The application will

have 9 or 10 users

>> only.
>>
>> Are there any 3-tier examples demonstrating

remoting, or are web

>> methods the way to go. I am anticipating a lot of

deployments after we

>> go live, so I want to keep as much as possible on

the server, and not

>> have to go round re-installing every couple of days.

Or are Web

>> Services still the way to go ?
>>
>> How does deployment work ? Could I put a client exe

on the user's PC

>> and remote in to the business tier which talks to

the data tier on the

>> same box ?
>>
>> Can anyone point me to some good tutorials to help ?
>
>
>.
>

.