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zen question

P: n/a
looking over the xhtml page that is provided as part of the zen garden
project...

what is the purpose of the <span></span> tags?

<div id="benefits">
<h3><span>Benefits</span></h3>
<p class="p1"><span>Why participate? For recognition, inspiration, and
a resource we can all refer to when making the case for <acronym
title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</acronym>-based design. This is sorely
needed, even today. More and more major sites are taking the leap, but not
enough have. One day this gallery will be a historical curiosity; that day
is not today.</span></p>
</div>
thanks very much-
mrt

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Jul 20 '05 #1
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23 Replies


P: n/a
Laurence Tureaud wrote:
looking over the xhtml page that is provided as part of the zen
garden project...

what is the purpose of the <span></span> tags?

<div id="benefits">
<h3><span>Benefits</span></h3>


The Zen Garden site is a css demonstration page, a sort of gee-whiz
affair. The markup does not change, but authors can contribute new
stylesheets to change the appearance. None of those authors can add
markup to create new styling hooks. To compensate, the markup was
written to provide as many styling hooks as could be conceived, ahead
of time. As a result, there is a lot of redundant markup, such as the
code you copied, that would not be included in a normal authoring
situation.

hth

--
Brian (remove ".invalid" to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 20 '05 #2

P: n/a
thank you brian & others for your thoughtful answers to my silly beginner
questions.

i hope to have better questions soon!

-mrt
Jul 20 '05 #3

P: n/a
Brian <us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid> wrote:
To compensate, the markup was
written to provide as many styling hooks as could be conceived, ahead
of time. As a result, there is a lot of redundant markup, - -


Part of the reasons for the extra markup is that it lets authors do
things in a manner that works on common browsers with serious problems in
their CSS support, too. For example, <h3><span>...</span></h3> lets the
author make the heading text just as wide as needed, e.g. in order to use
background that wide. For an inline element like <span> that's trivial,
but for a block element like <h3>, there's no practical way at present.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Jul 20 '05 #4

P: n/a
On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Laurence Tureaud wrote, quoting:
a resource we can all refer to when making the case for <acronym
title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</acronym>-based design.


"CSS" is not an acronym, though.
Jul 20 '05 #5

P: n/a
"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
a resource we can all refer to when making the case for <acronym
title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</acronym>-based design.


"CSS" is not an acronym, though.


In the CSS Zen Garden context, it is understandable that they didn't use
<abbr>, since <abbr> markup is useless for the purpose of styling
as far as IE is considered, and the Garden aims at being a practical
demonstration.

Personally, I would have used <span class="abbr" title=
"Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</span>.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Jul 20 '05 #6

P: n/a
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
"CSS" is not an acronym, though.
In the CSS Zen Garden context, it is understandable that they didn't use
<abbr>, since <abbr> markup is useless for the purpose of styling
as far as IE is considered, and the Garden aims at being a practical
demonstration.


I don't disagree; but the mere fact that IE doesn't support <abbr> is
IMNSHO no excuse for misrepresenting the term to WWW-compatible
browsers.
Personally, I would have used <span class="abbr" title=
"Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</span>.


When I can be bothered, I wrap my <abbr title="..."> elements in <span
class="abbr" title="...">, and when I can't, then IE users just have
to get what their vendor decides they can get.

cheers
Jul 20 '05 #7

P: n/a
Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
In the CSS Zen Garden context, it is understandable that they didn't use
<abbr>, since <abbr> markup is useless for the purpose of styling
as far as IE is considered, and the Garden aims at being a practical
demonstration.

Personally, I would have used <span class="abbr" title=
"Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</span>.


I serve <acronym> to anything claiming to be IE and <abbr> to real UAs,
which is one of a couple of concessions I grudgingly make to it. I also
subtly suggest to IE users that they might like to switch to a web
browser instead.

http://tranchant.plus.com/ie

--
Mark.
Jul 20 '05 #8

P: n/a
Alan J. Flavell wrote:
On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Laurence Tureaud wrote, quoting:
a resource we can all refer to when making the case for <acronym
title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</acronym>-based design.


"CSS" is not an acronym, though.


What it is if not an acronym? 'CSS' is an acronym; 'abbr' is an
abbreviation.

Berislav

--
If the Internet is a Marx Brothers movie, and Web, e-mail, and IRC are
Groucho, Chico, and Harpo, then Usenet is Zeppo.
Jul 20 '05 #9

P: n/a
Berislav Lopac wrote:
"CSS" is not an acronym, though.
What it is if not an acronym? 'CSS' is an acronym; 'abbr' is an
abbreviation.


An acronym is usually defined as being pronounceable as a word, like
NATO. abbr is indeed an abbreviation, but so is ICBM and CSS. These are
initial-type abbreviations, whereas abbr is a contraction-type
abbreviation (my terms).

These definitions are quite woolly, though...

--
Mark.
Jul 20 '05 #10

P: n/a
"Berislav Lopac" <be************@dimedia.hr> wrote:
Alan J. Flavell wrote:

"CSS" is not an acronym, though.


What it is if not an acronym? 'CSS' is an acronym;


How do you pronounce it then? Unless you prononce it as a word it
can't be an acronym.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
Jul 20 '05 #11

P: n/a
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Berislav Lopac wrote:
Alan J. Flavell wrote:
"CSS" is not an acronym, though.
What it is if not an acronym?


There's lots of things that it's not. Acronym is only one of them.

I give you MEU2, Fowler ed. Gowers, for example, for respectable
discussion of these terms.
'CSS' is an acronym;
Merely repeating the disputed assertion doesn't make it any more or
less valid, though. The sloppy use of the precise term "acronym" to
refer to various kinds of abbreviation in casual speech really doesn't
help. Particularly as English already has a long-standing word,
"initialism", to refer to this kind of abbreviation, and doesn't need
to degrade the original meaning of the term "acronym" until they all
mean much the same thing.
'abbr' is an abbreviation.


Did I ever dispute that? "CSS" is an abbreviation (for which HTML has
a markup). It's also an initialism (for which HTML has no specific
markup). An acronym it is not, at least not in respectable company.
Jul 20 '05 #12

P: n/a
Tim
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 06:07:10 +0000 (UTC),
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jk******@cs.tut.fi> posted:
For example, <h3><span>...</span></h3> lets the
author make the heading text just as wide as needed, e.g. in order to use
background that wide. For an inline element like <span> that's trivial,
but for a block element like <h3>, there's no practical way at present.


Have you ever tried restyling an h tag as an inline element? So far, on
the browsers I've tried it with, you can get the same effect.

e.g. h3 {display: inline; color: white; background-color: blue;}

--
If you insist on e-mailing me, use the reply-to address (it's real but
temporary). But please reply to the group, like you're supposed to.

This message was sent without a virus, please delete some files yourself.
Jul 20 '05 #13

P: n/a
Laurence Tureaud wrote:
thank you brian
Your welcome.
& others
Did I miss some other replies? :-o
for your thoughtful answers to my silly beginner questions.

i hope to have better questions soon!


This is one of the *least* silly questions I've come across recently
in ciwa*. It's quite reasonable to wonder why, on a demonstration
site, the markup is so curiously bloated.

--
Best,
Brian (remove ".invalid" to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 20 '05 #14

P: n/a
Brian wrote:
Did I miss some other replies? :-o


Well, yes, I did, mostly because I didn't bother to look ahead in the
unthreaded view. Sorry for the stupidity.

--
Brian (remove ".invalid" to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 20 '05 #15

P: n/a

"Mark Tranchant" <ma**@tranchant.plus.com> wrote in message
news:j3*********************@stones.force9.net...
Berislav Lopac wrote:
"CSS" is not an acronym, though.

What it is if not an acronym? 'CSS' is an acronym; 'abbr' is an
abbreviation.


An acronym is usually defined as being pronounceable as a word, like
NATO. abbr is indeed an abbreviation, but so is ICBM and CSS. These are
initial-type abbreviations, whereas abbr is a contraction-type
abbreviation (my terms).

These definitions are quite woolly, though...


The confusion would be abated by *adopting* a word specifically for strings
of initials that haven't become an acronym. I propose adapting the word used
in French for this purpose, "sigle", perhaps converting it to "siggle"
first.

Jul 20 '05 #16

P: n/a
Harlan Messinger wrote:
"Mark Tranchant" <ma**@tranchant.plus.com> wrote in message
news:j3*********************@stones.force9.net...

An acronym is usually defined as being pronounceable as a word, like
NATO. abbr is indeed an abbreviation, but so is ICBM and CSS. These are
initial-type abbreviations, whereas abbr is a contraction-type
abbreviation (my terms).

These definitions are quite woolly, though...

The confusion would be abated by *adopting* a word specifically for strings
of initials that haven't become an acronym. I propose adapting the word used
in French for this purpose, "sigle", perhaps converting it to "siggle"
first.


A good suggestion, and I like "siggle", but "initialism" exists for this
already:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=initialism

--
Mark.
Jul 20 '05 #17

P: n/a

"Mark Tranchant" <ma**@tranchant.plus.com> wrote in message
news:iG*********************@stones.force9.net...
Harlan Messinger wrote:
"Mark Tranchant" <ma**@tranchant.plus.com> wrote in message
news:j3*********************@stones.force9.net...

An acronym is usually defined as being pronounceable as a word, like
NATO. abbr is indeed an abbreviation, but so is ICBM and CSS. These are
initial-type abbreviations, whereas abbr is a contraction-type
abbreviation (my terms).

These definitions are quite woolly, though...

The confusion would be abated by *adopting* a word specifically for strings of initials that haven't become an acronym. I propose adapting the word used in French for this purpose, "sigle", perhaps converting it to "siggle"
first.


A good suggestion, and I like "siggle", but "initialism" exists for this
already:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=initialism


Ah, so it does: Merriam-Webster Collegiate on-line has it too. Too bad--I
was fond of "siggle" as soon as I thought of it.

Jul 20 '05 #18

P: n/a
Alan J. Flavell wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
"CSS" is not an acronym, though.


In the CSS Zen Garden context, it is understandable that they
didn't use <abbr>, since <abbr> markup is useless for the purpose
of styling as far as IE is considered, and the Garden aims at being
a practical demonstration.


I don't disagree; but the mere fact that IE doesn't support <abbr> is
IMNSHO no excuse for misrepresenting the term to WWW-compatible
browsers.


The Zen Garden is all about convincing people to use CSS. I'd say any
measurement can be taken to convince people to use CSS :)
I use <acronym>...</acronym> on my blog for the sole reason the
title-attribute breaks in <abbr>...</abbr>, knowing this is a hack --
but I find it's pragmatic enough. Let's face it, the W3C shouldn't have
invented two elements for this in the first place. (Maybe that would
have convinced the lazy Microsoft programmer to support
<abbr>...</abbr>, but who knows why IE doesn't understand this.) Did
anybody ever mention the W3C invented a whole lot of phrase markup
which we don't need as much as some others which seem to be lacking
(e.g. "footnote", for one)?

--
Google Blogoscoped
http://blog.outer-court.com
Jul 20 '05 #19

P: n/a
Alan J. Flavell wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Berislav Lopac wrote:
'CSS' is an acronym;


Merely repeating the disputed assertion doesn't make it any more or
less valid, though.


Hint to Berislav: "CSS" would be an acronym if you would pronounce it
"Cass" or something instead of "Sea-Ess-Ess". Unfortunately it's only
an abbreviation (for which we have the <abbr>-element).

--
Google Blogoscoped
http://blog.outer-court.com
Jul 20 '05 #20

P: n/a
Philipp Lenssen <in**@outer-court.com> wrote:
Did
anybody ever mention the W3C invented a whole lot of phrase markup
which we don't need as much as some others which seem to be lacking
(e.g. "footnote", for one)?


Alas, poor HTML 3.0! I knew it, Horatio: a draft of infinite elements, of
most excellent attributes: it hath borne structure on its back a thousand
times; and now, how abhorred in my imagination it is!

Generic captioned figures (a la HTML 3.0's FIG) would have been nice too.
--
Darin McGrew, mc****@stanfordalumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, da***@htmlhelp.com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"I've cut this board three times, and it's still too short!"
Jul 20 '05 #21

P: n/a
Tim <ti*@mail.localhost.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 06:07:10 +0000 (UTC),
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jk******@cs.tut.fi> posted:
For example, <h3><span>...</span></h3> lets the
author make the heading text just as wide as needed, e.g. in order
to use background that wide. For an inline element like <span>
that's trivial, but for a block element like <h3>, there's no
practical way at present.
Have you ever tried restyling an h tag as an inline element?


Yes, but making a heading an inline element is too restrictive.
So far,
on the browsers I've tried it with, you can get the same effect.

e.g. h3 {display: inline; color: white; background-color: blue;}


Up to a point, yes, but e.g. margin-top and margin-bottom do not affect
non-replaced inline elements. And for good typography, margins around
headings should normally be changed from common defaults (at least so
that top margin is larger than bottom margin).

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Jul 20 '05 #22

P: n/a
Tim
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jk******@cs.tut.fi> posted:
For example, <h3><span>...</span></h3> lets the
author make the heading text just as wide as needed, e.g. in order
to use background that wide. For an inline element like <span>
that's trivial, but for a block element like <h3>, there's no
practical way at present.


Tim <ti*@mail.localhost.invalid> wrote:
Have you ever tried restyling an h tag as an inline element?

"Jukka K. Korpela" <jk******@cs.tut.fi> posted:
Yes, but making a heading an inline element is too restrictive.
I know it seems a daft thing to do, but it does seem to work okay where
I've tried that trick, because there's other block elements either side of
it.

e.g. <p>something</p> <h2>something</h2> <p>something</p>

So far, on the browsers I've tried it with, you can get the same effect.

e.g. h3 {display: inline; color: white; background-color: blue;}

Up to a point, yes, but e.g. margin-top and margin-bottom do not affect
non-replaced inline elements. And for good typography, margins around
headings should normally be changed from common defaults (at least so
that top margin is larger than bottom margin).


Well, it was a very simple example. ;-) You could, of course, put more
information around that to put in margins and the like, but then you're not
that far away from playing with the span trick, then, anyway.

I suppose there's some credence to the idea that you're trying "emphasise"
a heading by colouring it in, so you could do a <h2><em>heading</em></h2>
trick, and style em elements within h2 elements. ;-)

--
If you insist on e-mailing me, use the reply-to address (it's real but
temporary). But please reply to the group, like you're supposed to.

This message was sent without a virus, please delete some files yourself.
Jul 20 '05 #23

P: n/a
Tim <ti*@mail.localhost.invalid> wrote:
Yes, but making a heading an inline element is too restrictive.
I know it seems a daft thing to do, but it does seem to work okay
where I've tried that trick, because there's other block elements
either side of it.

e.g. <p>something</p> <h2>something</h2> <p>something</p>


A heading is not necessarily preceded or followed by a paragraph but e.g.
by a <div> element. And how would you arrange things so that the top
margin for the heading is larger than bottom margin, if any attempt to do
so directly fails (because you've made <h2> an inline element)? It's
possible, but awkward.
I suppose there's some credence to the idea that you're trying
"emphasise" a heading by colouring it in, so you could do a
<h2><em>heading</em></h2> trick, and style em elements within h2
elements. ;-)


And have it italicized on non-CSS browsers. I wouldn't recommend using
such artificial markup; if you want redundant inline markup for the
purpose of styling, use <span> - it has the additional benefit of not
having any default effect on rendering.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Jul 20 '05 #24

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