IE6 centering text - unwanted

[Vorpal Chortler]

I've got a web customer complaining about centered text when it's not
supposed to be. I just looked over at browsercam and it only appears on
Win IE 6 - Nothing else, EVERYTHING else is justified left as it should
be.

I'm using primitive CSS1 AND tables for the site.

The top page is at http://www.geocities.com/brigidregina/index.html

The CSS lives at
http://www.geocities.com/brigidregin...urselffree.css

If you know what to do, please click email too.

thanks

[Rijk van Geijtenbeek]

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 22:24:40 GMT, Vorpal Chortler
<vo****@phreaker.net.invalid> wrote:

I've got a web customer complaining about centered text when it's not
supposed to be. I just looked over at browsercam and it only appears on
Win IE 6 - Nothing else, EVERYTHING else is justified left as it should
be.

I'm using primitive CSS1 AND tables for the site.

The top page is at http://www.geocities.com/brigidregina/index.html

The CSS lives at
http://www.geocities.com/brigidregin...urselffree.css

If you know what to do, please click email too.

thanks

You've got a lot of <DIV align=center> in your code, it's not clear to me
which ones you want honored and which you don't. But you use a Doctype
that triggers 'Standards mode' rendering in MSIE 6 (and Opera 7 BTW), and
that means that an orthodox interpretation is used: the content of the
enclosed tables is centered, not the tables themselves. The latter is
hardly useful BTW--why center tables that are set to 98% and 100% widths?

--
Rijk van Geijtenbeek

The Web is a procrastination apparatus:
It can absorb as much time as is required to ensure that you won't get any
real work done. - J.Nielsen

[William Starr Moake]

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 22:24:40 GMT, Vorpal Chortler
<vo****@phreaker.net.invalid> wrote:

I've got a web customer complaining about centered text when it's not
supposed to be. I just looked over at browsercam and it only appears on
Win IE 6 - Nothing else, EVERYTHING else is justified left as it should
be.

I'm using primitive CSS1 AND tables for the site.

The top page is at http://www.geocities.com/brigidregina/index.html

The CSS lives at
http://www.geocities.com/brigidregin...urselffree.css

The same thing happened to many of my sites when I switched to IE 6. I
had to go back and left-align all text contained in tables. In IE 5.5
the default <p> setting was left-align, but not in IE 6.

[Mark Parnell]

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 22:24:40 GMT, Vorpal Chortler declared in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:

I've got a web customer complaining about centered text when it's not
supposed to be. I just looked over at browsercam and it only appears on
Win IE 6 - Nothing else, EVERYTHING else is justified left as it should
be.
You tested it on every browser in existence, and only IE6 behaves like
that?

OK, so that was a loaded question, because I know the answer is no - Opera
7 behaves the same.

I'm using primitive CSS1 AND tables for the site.
Why?

The top page is at http://www.geocities.com/brigidregina/index.html
You have a number of errors in your HTML. First step is to fix those.
http://validator.w3.org/

Not sure whether it will make a difference[1], but the URI in the doctype
declaration should be http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd, not what you
have.

The CSS lives at
http://www.geocities.com/brigidregin...urselffree.css

A couple of errors in your CSS too. http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

BTW: the validator doesn't mention it, but the <!-- and --> shouldn't be in
your CSS file.

HTH

[1] It may, because the fact that the behaviour is the same in O7, but not
O6, makes me think that it is running in "Quirks" mode (O6 didn't have a
"Quirks" mode).

--
Mark Parnell
http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au

[William Starr Moake]

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:43:52 +1100, Mark Parnell
<we*******@clarkecomputers.com.au> wrote:

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 22:24:40 GMT, Vorpal Chortler declared in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:

I've got a web customer complaining about centered text when it's not
supposed to be. I just looked over at browsercam and it only appears on
Win IE 6 - Nothing else, EVERYTHING else is justified left as it should
be.

You tested it on every browser in existence, and only IE6 behaves like
that?

OK, so that was a loaded question, because I know the answer is no - Opera
7 behaves the same.

Don't give a rat's ass about Opera or any other browser besides IE.
The latest stats show IE has 95% of the market. The other 5% are
computer geeks and I design for the general public, not geeks.

[Anne van Kesteren]

William Starr Moake wrote:

Don't give a rat's ass about Opera or any other browser besides IE.
The latest stats show IE has 95% of the market. The other 5% are
computer geeks and I design for the general public, not geeks.

I thought it was someone else his question.
--
Anne van Kesteren
<http://www.annevankesteren.nl/>

[Tim]

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 21:16:18 -1000,
William Starr Moake <ws*****@yahoo.com> wrote:

Don't give a rat's ass about Opera or any other browser besides IE.
The latest stats show IE has 95% of the market. The other 5% are
computer geeks and I design for the general public, not geeks.

Then, apart from being an asshole (something you've repeatedly
demonstrated in here), you're certainly asking for help in the wrong
place, from the wrong people.

If you don't know what's wrong with coding for MSIE, then quit, and do
the entire world a favour.

--
My "from" address is totally fake. The reply-to address is real, but
may be only temporary. Reply to usenet postings in the same place as
you read the message you're replying to.

This message was sent without a virus, please delete some files yourself.

[Bertilo Wennergren]

William Starr Moake:

The latest stats show IE has 95% of the market.

Not according to "Browser News":

<URL:http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm>

The stats there show percentages for IE varying between 69% and 88%.

In the "Trends" page the usage of MSIE is summarized as follows:

Roughly 85% use IE-based browsers, down from a high of ~94% as users
switch to other browser families - mainly Gecko - with this downward
trend likely to continue as the alternate browsers improve and as IE
remains stagnant with no planned upgrade for several years.

<URL:http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat_trends.htm>

The usage of Gecko-based browsers is summarized as follows on that
same page:

I suggest that ~5-10% typically use Gecko browsers, with this number
growing as IE and Netscape 4 users switch.

--
Bertilo Wennergren <be******@gmx.net> <http://www.bertilow.com>

[Brian]

William Starr Moake wrote:

Don't give a rat's ass about Opera or any other browser besides IE.
The latest stats show IE has 95% of the market. The other 5% are
computer geeks and I design for the general public, not geeks.

What, a post from William Starr Moake, and no "css nazis" comment? I
feel cheated.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[Vorpal Chortler]

http://www.geocities.com/brigidregina/index.html

I've made some changes. How's it now in IE6? Browsercam won't let me
back in.

You've got a lot of <DIV align=center> in your code, it's not clear to mewhich ones you want honored and which you don't. But you use a Doctype
that triggers 'Standards mode' rendering in MSIE 6 (and Opera 7 BTW), andthat means that an orthodox interpretation is used: the content of the
enclosed tables is centered, not the tables themselves. The latter is
hardly useful BTW--why center tables that are set to 98% and 100% widths?
--
Rijk van Geijtenbeek
OK, I've now stripped the <DIV align=center> code around the tables.

The same thing happened to many of my sites when I switched to IE 6. I
had to go back and left-align all text contained in tables. In IE 5.5
the default <p> setting was left-align, but not in IE 6.
You tested it on every browser in existence, and only IE6 behaves like
that?

OK, so that was a loaded question, because I know the answer is no - Opera7 behaves the same.
OK, I didn't really check every browser. Here's the list of the ones I
checked with browsercam.com:

Windows Explorer 6 - centering glitch

Windows Explorer 5.5. - fine
Windows Explorer 5 - fine
Windows Netscape 7 - fine

Mac Safari 1 - fine
Linux Mozilla 1.3 - fine

I should have checked Opera.

I'm using primitive CSS1 AND tables for the site.

Why?

I just use CSS1 for font control. I haven't learned (yet) how to format
structure with CSS.


You have a number of errors in your HTML. First step is to fix those.
http://validator.w3.org/
OK, I checked there and got error(s) alright. All the pages are fine
EXCEPT for this code that Yahoo is appending dynamically at the EOF
</html>:

<!-- text below generated by server. PLEASE REMOVE
--></object></layer></div></span></style></noscript></table></script></ap
plet><script language="JavaScript"
src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mc/mc.js"></script><script
language="JavaScript"
src="http://geocities.com/js_source/geov2.js"></script><script
language="javascript">geovisit();</script><noscript><img
src="http://visit.webhosting.yahoo.com/visit.gif?us1071767640"
alt="setstats" border="0" width="1" height="1"></noscript>
<IMG SRC="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=76001544&t=1071767640" ALT=1
WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=1>

WTF!? I doubt I'll be able to get them to do anything about it. I run
all my local code through two layers of syntax check and the whole site
is/was error free, except the CSS, see below.
Not sure whether it will make a difference[1], but the URI in the doctypedeclaration should be http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd, not what you
have.
Hmmm, this is what BBEdit 6 inserted:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/loose.dtd">

I take it you're saying it's wrong. Could you copyeditpaste the exact
thing I should have, please.

The CSS lives at
http://www.geocities.com/brigidregin...urselffree.css

A couple of errors in your CSS too. http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

BTW: the validator doesn't mention it, but the <!-- and --> shouldn't

be inyour CSS file.

HTH
OK. I went there and found some errors, and fixed them, including the
comment code. But now I still get one error:

Line: 0

Parse error - Unrecognized : }

I don't have a line 0 and don't seen any extraneous }
William Starr Moake <ws*****@yahoo.com> wrote:

Don't give a rat's ass about Opera or any other browser besides IE.
The latest stats show IE has 95% of the market. The other 5% are
computer geeks and I design for the general public, not geeks.

Then, apart from being an asshole (something you've repeatedly
demonstrated in here), you're certainly asking for help in the wrong
place, from the wrong people.

Mistaken identity! I'm the one asking for help, not Mr. Moake.

[Mark Parnell]

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:39:00 GMT, Vorpal Chortler declared in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:

http://www.geocities.com/brigidregina/index.html

I've made some changes. How's it now in IE6? Browsercam won't let me
back in.
Better, but a lot of it still centered.
http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au/usenet/vorpal.jpg [43k]

You have a number of errors in your HTML. First step is to fix those.
http://validator.w3.org/

OK, I checked there and got error(s) alright. All the pages are fine
EXCEPT for this code that Yahoo is appending dynamically at the EOF
</html>:

Ah, yes. I didn't really look at it that closely, just noticed you had
errors.

WTF!? I doubt I'll be able to get them to do anything about it. I run
Probably not.
all my local code through two layers of syntax check and the whole site
is/was error free, except the CSS, see below.
If it is only that section of the code that is not valid, it is unlikely
that it is related to your problem with centred text. That's what you get
for hosting with Geocities. My recommendation would be to find a better
host. :-)
Hmmm, this is what BBEdit 6 inserted:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/loose.dtd">

I take it you're saying it's wrong. Could you copyeditpaste the exact
thing I should have, please.

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">

See
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/gl...pe_declaration
-3

As I say, it's only the URI that is slightly different, but it may help.
Certainly isn't going to hurt.

http://www.geocities.com/brigidregin...urselffree.css

OK. I went there and found some errors, and fixed them, including the
comment code. But now I still get one error:

Your CSS file is laid out a bit all over the place, but I believe there is
an extra } between the .growup and greentext rules.
BTW: I think that should be .greentext (and .bluetext, etc). I don't
remember seeing a <greentext> element in the specs. :-)

HTH

--
Mark Parnell
http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au

[Neal]

"William Starr Moake" <ws*****@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vt********************************@4ax.com...

Don't give a rat's ass about Opera or any other browser besides IE.
The latest stats show IE has 95% of the market. The other 5% are
computer geeks and I design for the general public, not geeks.

It's said that most people have cheated on their spouse, too. So why not
just do it?

I don't think the conclusion you've reached is valid. Netscape is not a
"geek" browser. Neither is Opera, really, it's popular with people with
disabilities.

Feel free to ignore a lot of people. I'll try to accomodate EVERY visitor to
my site. It really doesn't cost a cent more to code that way, so what's the
benefit of losing five percent - likely more - of your potential market?
Besides being lazy and careless?

You already had to drastically recode for the latest release of IE. If the
next version of IE happens to be far more standards-compliant than
the current one, our sites will still work, and yours won't. You're taking a
hell of a big chance, but it's yours to take.

[MH]

> > Don't give a rat's ass about Opera or any other browser besides IE.

The latest stats show IE has 95% of the market.

Do not believe the stats, many Opera users tell it to identify as IE6
(file - preferences - network or ctrl-alt-o)

--------
MH

[Stephen Poley]

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:17:30 +0100, "MH" <no****@nowhere.no> wrote:

> Don't give a rat's ass about Opera or any other browser besides IE.
> The latest stats show IE has 95% of the market.

Do not believe the stats, many Opera users tell it to identify as IE6
(file - preferences - network or ctrl-alt-o)

Which is the default setting anyway.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

[Vorpal Chortler]

Thanks, Mark, for all of it.

[Shawn K. Quinn]

William Starr Moake wrote:

Don't give a rat's ass about Opera or any other browser besides IE.
The latest stats show IE has 95% of the market. The other 5% are
computer geeks and I design for the general public, not geeks.

Correction, the stats probably show that 95% of hits claim to be IE. Opera,
as shipped, defaults to identifying itself as IE (due to idiotic sites that
do browser detection for dubious reasons).

IE is known to have bugs in its HTTP code which cause superfluous hits,
inflating the true number of IE's users even more. So nobody will really
know just how many users are using IE.

My mom uses Opera on her computer. I use Konqueror and occasionally Mozilla.
These are all Web browsers. (Personally, I refrain from even calling IE a
Web browser but for the moment I'll entertain those that do.) This is why
we have standards. It is not supposed to matter what Web browser is using,
and for good reason. Requiring specific software to access information was
barely state of the art for 1984, and is far below state of the art in
2004. If you really only care about PCs running Windows and users of IE,
why not just serve a Word document?

--
Shawn K. Quinn