what font is sans-serif (IE Win)

[Martin Ernst]

Hello!

I wonder which font is normally used in IE (6) for windows if i use
"sans-serif" as font-family.

Does anybody know it? Thanks

Martin

[William Tasso]

Martin Ernst wrote:

I wonder which font is normally used in IE (6) for windows if i use
"sans-serif" as font-family.

I wonder why it is important. FWIW: the default here is arial.

--
William Tasso - http://WilliamTasso.com

[Martin Ernst]

Am Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:39:30 -0000 schrieb William Tasso:

Martin Ernst wrote:

I wonder which font is normally used in IE (6) for windows if i use
"sans-serif" as font-family.

I wonder why it is important. FWIW: the default here is arial.

It is important for me, because this font is not rendered correctly. It is
narrow/condensed and bold/black. I assume that this is because one of my
system fonts is corrupted, but i do not know which one it is.

Martin

[C A Upsdell]

"Martin Ernst" <[e-mail]> wrote in message
news:1x****************@streicher.connect-wa.de...

Am Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:39:30 -0000 schrieb William Tasso:

Martin Ernst wrote:

I wonder which font is normally used in IE (6) for windows if i use
"sans-serif" as font-family.

I wonder why it is important. FWIW: the default here is arial.

It is important for me, because this font is not rendered correctly. It is
narrow/condensed and bold/black. I assume that this is because one of my
system fonts is corrupted, but i do not know which one it is.

IE picks the generic CSS fonts such as serif, sans-serif, monospace, etc.,
and gives you no direct control over which it chooses.

IE appears to typically choose Arial for the generic sans-serif font,
however, sometimes IE6 switches to another, wholly inappropriate font. The
only solution I have found for this is to: (a) identify the font it is
using, (b) shut down IE, (c) uninstall the font it is using, without
deleting the font, (d) start up IE and confirm that it has switched to a
more reasonable font, like Arial, then (e) re-install the font you had
un-installed.

[Shawn K. Quinn]

Martin Ernst wrote:

Hello!

I wonder which font is normally used in IE (6) for windows if i use
"sans-serif" as font-family.

Does anybody know it? Thanks

Whatever font the user has selected as their sans-serif font. It could be
anything sans-serif.

--
Shawn K. Quinn

[Bertilo Wennergren]

Shawn K. Quinn:

I wonder which font is normally used in IE (6) for windows if i use
"sans-serif" as font-family.

Whatever font the user has selected as their sans-serif font. It could be
anything sans-serif.

Hmmm.... Where and how exactly can the user choose that in MSIE?

(If it's really possible to choose the font for "sans-serif", then
it could be any font at all. It doesn't have to be an actual sans-serif
font.)

--
Bertilo Wennergren <be******@gmx.net> <http://www.bertilow.com>

[Andreas Prilop]

Bertilo Wennergren <be******@gmx.net> wrote:

Hmmm.... Where and how exactly can the user choose that in MSIE?
You cannot - but you can in Mozilla/Netscape.
(If it's really possible to choose the font for "sans-serif", then
it could be any font at all. It doesn't have to be an actual sans-serif
font.)

Which fonts can be chosen for "Serif" and "Sans Serif" depends on the
settings in the 'OS/2' table of the TrueType font. This is rather
a cosmetical question and not really interesting. (Note also that
"Serif" doesn't make sense for other scripts like Arabic.) However
it is essential for monospaced/proportional fonts, which are indeed
distinguished by Internet Explorer. If a "true monospaced" font is
missing the correct settings, then MS Windows regards this font as
proportional font.
See http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/...ers-fonts.html
under "Monospace fonts".

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Andreas Prilop wrote:

Bertilo Wennergren <be******@gmx.net> wrote:

Hmmm.... Where and how exactly can the user choose that in MSIE?
You cannot - but you can in Mozilla/Netscape.

(If it's really possible to choose the font for "sans-serif", then
it could be any font at all. It doesn't have to be an actual sans-serif
font.)

Which fonts can be chosen for "Serif" and "Sans Serif" depends on the
settings in the 'OS/2' table of the TrueType font.

But I think the question (which would be more appropriately dealt with
on the stylesheets group) is about what actual font MSIE will use when
CSS calls for the generic sans-serif font. I don't know the answer to
that question, but I'm pretty sure that in earlier times (IE4-ish I
think) it was aiming for the "MS Sans Serif" bitmap font, and for
serif it was aiming for "MS Serif", although it didn't always quite
make it (see the screenshots linked under the IE4 heading at
http://css.nu/pointers/bugs-ie.html ).

I hunted in the registry, back then, but found no way to configure
this - I presumed the choice was somehow built-in to the browser or to
the font-matching algorithms.

So, yes, I was surprised to see it stated that this could be
configured in IE. Mozilla, OK, but not IE...?

Btw, I see no sign of the IE4 bugs when I try my original test pages
now in IE6 and try the resizing etc. that provoked the problem in IE4.
This is rather a cosmetical question and not really interesting.

I think the questioner is entitled to their own interests, no? SCNR.

(your more-interesting points snipped ;-)

[Martin Ernst]

Am Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:21:17 GMT schrieb C A Upsdell:

It is important for me, because this font is not rendered correctly. It is
narrow/condensed and bold/black. I assume that this is because one of my
system fonts is corrupted, but i do not know which one it is.

The only solution I have found for this is to: (a) identify the font it is
using, (b) shut down IE, (c) uninstall the font it is using, without
deleting the font, (d) start up IE and confirm that it has switched to a
more reasonable font, like Arial, then (e) re-install the font you had
un-installed.

Yeah, that's right. But I do not know, which font it is. That's reason why
I posted my original question: to identify the font that i have to
deactive/reinstall or whatever.

Martin

[Markus Ernst]

"Martin Ernst" <[e-mail]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:10***************@streicher.connect-wa.de...

Am Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:21:17 GMT schrieb C A Upsdell:

It is important for me, because this font is not rendered correctly. It is narrow/condensed and bold/black. I assume that this is because one of my system fonts is corrupted, but i do not know which one it is.

The only solution I have found for this is to: (a) identify the font it

is using, (b) shut down IE, (c) uninstall the font it is using, without
deleting the font, (d) start up IE and confirm that it has switched to a
more reasonable font, like Arial, then (e) re-install the font you had
un-installed.

Yeah, that's right. But I do not know, which font it is. That's reason why
I posted my original question: to identify the font that i have to
deactive/reinstall or whatever.

Martin

I had exactly the same problem. Posted it to Microsoft's IE6 group some days
ago, but did not get a reply at all.

After reading C A Upsdell's posting I took the risk of trying to disable all
fonts. As I have ATM on my machine I thaught that was easy but there seem to
be some fonts not accessible by ATM, so I copied the contents of the fonts
folder to another folder and then deleted all fonts that the system allowed
me to. Launched IE and closed it again, then copied the fonts back to the
fonts folder.

I had to reset the appearance settings, but now the default sans serif font
in IE is actually displayed as Arial which is fine.

--
Markus

[C A Upsdell]

"Martin Ernst" <[e-mail]> wrote in message
news:10***************@streicher.connect-wa.de...

Am Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:21:17 GMT schrieb C A Upsdell:

It is important for me, because this font is not rendered correctly. It is narrow/condensed and bold/black. I assume that this is because one of my system fonts is corrupted, but i do not know which one it is.

The only solution I have found for this is to: (a) identify the font it

is using, (b) shut down IE, (c) uninstall the font it is using, without
deleting the font, (d) start up IE and confirm that it has switched to a
more reasonable font, like Arial, then (e) re-install the font you had
un-installed.

Yeah, that's right. But I do not know, which font it is. That's reason why
I posted my original question: to identify the font that i have to
deactive/reinstall or whatever.

Increase the font size to get a better view of the shapes of the characters.
Then use the Windows Character Map program to look for a match.

[Martin Ernst]

Am Wed, 17 Dec 2003 12:24:15 +0100 schrieb Markus Ernst:

so I copied the contents of the fonts
folder to another folder and then deleted all fonts that the system allowed
me to. Launched IE and closed it again, then copied the fonts back to the
fonts folder.

What can I say? Now it's alright with my fonts. I just did what you have
desrcibed.

Thank you
Martin

[A Hess]

Somewhere around 12/17/03 1:18 AM, Martin Ernst typed wildly with
reckless abandon:

Yeah, that's right. But I do not know, which font it is. That's reason why
I posted my original question: to identify the font that i have to
deactive/reinstall or whatever.

Martin

When I want to know which font a website or whatever is using, I just
copy some of it, open Word (actually OpenOffice, but it's all the same),
paste it, and it says right up top what it is... I'm not sure if this
would work in your situation though. You could give it a try, Aron

--
Accomplishing the impossible just ensures that the boss will add it to
your regular duties.

[Andreas Prilop]

"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:

But I think the question (which would be more appropriately dealt with
on the stylesheets group) is about what actual font MSIE will use when
CSS calls for the generic sans-serif font.

I have prepared two test pages:
<http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/temp/serif.html>
<http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/temp/serif.html6>
My typeface settings in Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows 2000 are:
Tahoma for both "Arabic" and "Latin". Tahoma contains all characters
necessary for the above pages. Note that Tahoma is a sans-serif
typeface. The pages display okay if I choose to ignore "page-
specified typefaces". But otherwise IE 6.0 uses Arial (not Tahoma!)
and Times New Roman, resp. - thereby failing to display the Arabic
letter "va" as well as all special Urdu letters.

Nothing new, though:
<http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/charset/browsers-fonts.html#dont>

[C A Upsdell]

"Andreas Prilop" <nh******@rrzn-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote in message
news:171220031945138785%nh******@rrzn-user.uni-hannover.de...

"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:

But I think the question (which would be more appropriately dealt with
on the stylesheets group) is about what actual font MSIE will use when
CSS calls for the generic sans-serif font.

I have prepared two test pages:
<http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/temp/serif.html>
<http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/temp/serif.html6>
My typeface settings in Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows 2000 are:
Tahoma for both "Arabic" and "Latin". Tahoma contains all characters
necessary for the above pages. Note that Tahoma is a sans-serif
typeface. The pages display okay if I choose to ignore "page-
specified typefaces". But otherwise IE 6.0 uses Arial (not Tahoma!)
and Times New Roman, resp. - thereby failing to display the Arabic
letter "va" as well as all special Urdu letters.

A common misunderstanding. The fonts specifiable in IE are the fonts that
will be used if NO font is specified by the web page. They are NOT the
generic CSS fonts: serif, sans-serif, monospace, etc. IE gives the user NO
direct control of what the generic CSS fonts are. Mozilla and Opera do.

[Andreas Prilop]

"C A Upsdell" <cupsdell0311XXX@-@[e-mail]> quoted me and wrote:

A common misunderstanding.

I think you misunderstood me. My point was (for the 256th time)
that it is evil® to specify any typeface at all. Please read
<http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/charset/browsers-fonts.html#dont>
carefully.

--
Evil® is a registered trademark of The President of The United States.

[C A Upsdell]

"Andreas Prilop" <nh******@rrzn-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote in message
news:181220031725213551%nh******@rrzn-user.uni-hannover.de...

"C A Upsdell" <cupsdell0311XXX@-@[e-mail]> quoted me and wrote:

A common misunderstanding.

I think you misunderstood me. My point was (for the 256th time)
that it is evil® to specify any typeface at all. Please read
<http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/charset/browsers-fonts.html#dont>
carefully.

Evil? I think not. The article to which you refer has to do with the
display of glyphs that are not supported by installed character sets.

First, it has nothing to do with what the original poster asked, who was
seeking for a solution to IE picking an inappropriate generic CSS font.

Second, if someone is making a page containing glyphs that are not
universally available, surely the designer should specify fonts that contain
the glyphs.

Third, I am dubious of your assertion that Tahoma supports glyphs that Arial
does not: I think it more likely that your version of Tahoma is more
up-to-date than your version of Arial; Microsoft updates its fonts from time
to time, but no longer makes its common web fonts -- including Arial and
Tahoma --freely available, so it is more than possible to have out-of-date
fonts.

[Andreas Prilop]

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, C A Upsdell wrote:

<http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/charset/browsers-fonts.html#dont>
The article to which you refer has to do with the
display of glyphs that are not supported by installed character sets.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Installed *fonts*.
First, it has nothing to do with what the original poster asked,
Welcome to Usenet!
Second, if someone is making a page containing glyphs that are not
universally available, surely the designer should specify fonts that contain
the glyphs.

[...] so it is more than possible to have out-of-date fonts.

Can you spot the contradiction?

[Bertilo Wennergren]

C A Upsdell wrote:

Second, if someone is making a page containing glyphs that are not
universally available, surely the designer should specify fonts that contain
the glyphs.

No! Quite the opposite. You can't know if the font you specify has
the needed glyphs in every machine that has a font with that name.

The only possible exception being fonts that are really unique: they
exist in only one version, for which you can be sure what glyphs in
contains. "Arial Unicode MS" might be such an exception.

--
Bertilo Wennergren <be******@gmx.net> <http://www.bertilow.com>

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

Bertilo Wennergren <be******@gmx.net> wrote:

C A Upsdell wrote:

Second, if someone is making a page containing glyphs that are not
universally available, surely the designer should specify fonts that
contain the glyphs.
No! Quite the opposite. You can't know if the font you specify has
the needed glyphs in every machine that has a font with that name.

The only possible exception being fonts that are really unique: they
exist in only one version, for which you can be sure what glyphs in
contains. "Arial Unicode MS" might be such an exception.

Would "Palatino Linotype" fall into this category?
;K

[Andreas Prilop]

Mad Bad Rabbit <ma**********@yahoo.com> wrote:

The only possible exception being fonts that are really unique: they
exist in only one version, for which you can be sure what glyphs in
contains. "Arial Unicode MS" might be such an exception.

Would "Palatino Linotype" fall into this category?

Palatino Linotype is full of extended Greek and Cyrillic letters,
but has neither Arabic nor Hebrew.
http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/...ers-fonts.html

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

Andreas Prilop <nh******@rrzn-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote:

Mad Bad Rabbit <ma**********@yahoo.com> wrote:

The only possible exception being fonts that are really unique: they
exist in only one version, for which you can be sure what glyphs in
contains. "Arial Unicode MS" might be such an exception.
Would "Palatino Linotype" fall into this category?

Palatino Linotype is full of extended Greek and Cyrillic letters,
but has neither Arabic nor Hebrew.
http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/...ers-fonts.html

Yes, but are there multiple versions? If I use

span.polytonic { font-family: "Palatino Linotype" }

is there any risk that Linux or Mac users have some other variant
of that font without polytonic Greek characters; or is that font
name particular to the version shipped with Windows XP and 2000?

;K

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Andreas Prilop wrote:

Mad Bad Rabbit <ma**********@yahoo.com> wrote:

The only possible exception being fonts that are really unique: they
exist in only one version, for which you can be sure what glyphs in
contains. "Arial Unicode MS" might be such an exception.

Would "Palatino Linotype" fall into this category?

Palatino Linotype is full of extended Greek and Cyrillic letters,
but has neither Arabic nor Hebrew.
http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/...ers-fonts.html

In fairness, I think Alan Wood has a much better overview of fonts

http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/fonts.html

But folks shouldn't confuse the earlier question "does the font exist
in only one version?" (which is a good question, to which I don't have
an answer), with "does the font cover the repertoire X, Y etc.?"
which, at least for the versions reviewed, seems to be set out in
summary form in Alan Wood's list.