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Proposed CSS 3 additions

Comments re these three related, proposed CSS 3 additions?

1. Add 'text-transform:time' , which would transform text in the format
hours:minutes:s econds (24 hour clock) to the local format for displaying the
time, e.g. <span style="text-transform:time; ">23:15</span> might be rendered
as 11:15PM or 23:15.

2. Add 'text-transform:date' , which would transform text in the format
year-month-day to text in the local format for displaying the date, e.g.
<span style="text-transform:date; ">2004-07-23</span> might be rendered
07/23/04, 23/07/04, 07/23/2004, 23/07/2004, or whatever.

3. Add 'text-transform:numbe r', which would transform a number per the
local format for displaying a number, e.g. <span
style="text-transform:numbe r;">123,456,789 .01</span> might be rendered as
123,456,789.01, 123 456 789,01, 123.456.789,01, or whatever.

The objective, of course, is to be able to have times, dates, and numbers in
content rendered in formats with which the user is most familiar, e.g. into
the formats which in Windows are specified by Control Panel, Regional
Settings.


Jul 20 '05 #1
29 2553
Els
C A Upsdell wrote:
Comments re these three related, proposed CSS 3 additions?

1. Add 'text-transform:time' , which would transform text
in the format hours:minutes:s econds (24 hour clock) to the
local format for displaying the time, e.g. <span
style="text-transform:time; ">23:15</span> might be rendered
as 11:15PM or 23:15.

2. Add 'text-transform:date' , which would transform text
in the format year-month-day to text in the local format
for displaying the date, e.g. <span
style="text-transform:date; ">2004-07-23</span> might be
rendered 07/23/04, 23/07/04, 07/23/2004, 23/07/2004, or
whatever.

3. Add 'text-transform:numbe r', which would transform a
number per the local format for displaying a number, e.g.
<span style="text-transform:numbe r;">123,456,789 .01</span>
might be rendered as 123,456,789.01, 123 456 789,01,
123.456.789,01, or whatever.

The objective, of course, is to be able to have times,
dates, and numbers in content rendered in formats with
which the user is most familiar, e.g. into the formats
which in Windows are specified by Control Panel, Regional
Settings.


Why the local format?

If I'm reading an English webpage in Holland, I expect
1000,000 to mean 1 million. If the local format would be
applied, 1000,000 means 1000 and zero thousandths.
(is that an English word?)

Same goes for the date, although maybe less problematic.
My local (Dutch) format for date is day-month-year.
But when I'm reading an American page, I expect 7-3-1999 to
mean the 3rd of July, not the 7th of March.

As for the time, I don't know what the local format would
mean. The format I installed on my pc, or what is most common
in the country? We use both 3pm and 15.00. I prefer the 24
hour system, but not everybody is the same.

--
Els
http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos văo. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -
Jul 20 '05 #2
"Els" <el*********@ti scali.nl> wrote in message
news:Xn******** *********@130.1 33.1.4...
C A Upsdell wrote:
Comments re these three related, proposed CSS 3 additions?

1. Add 'text-transform:time' , which would transform text
in the format hours:minutes:s econds (24 hour clock) to the
local format for displaying the time, e.g. <span
style="text-transform:time; ">23:15</span> might be rendered
as 11:15PM or 23:15.

2. Add 'text-transform:date' , which would transform text
in the format year-month-day to text in the local format
for displaying the date, e.g. <span
style="text-transform:date; ">2004-07-23</span> might be
rendered 07/23/04, 23/07/04, 07/23/2004, 23/07/2004, or
whatever.

3. Add 'text-transform:numbe r', which would transform a
number per the local format for displaying a number, e.g.
<span style="text-transform:numbe r;">123,456,789 .01</span>
might be rendered as 123,456,789.01, 123 456 789,01,
123.456.789,01, or whatever.

The objective, of course, is to be able to have times,
dates, and numbers in content rendered in formats with
which the user is most familiar, e.g. into the formats
which in Windows are specified by Control Panel, Regional
Settings.


Why the local format?

If I'm reading an English webpage in Holland, I expect
1000,000 to mean 1 million. If the local format would be
applied, 1000,000 means 1000 and zero thousandths.
(is that an English word?)

Same goes for the date, although maybe less problematic.
My local (Dutch) format for date is day-month-year.
But when I'm reading an American page, I expect 7-3-1999 to
mean the 3rd of July, not the 7th of March.

As for the time, I don't know what the local format would
mean. The format I installed on my pc, or what is most common
in the country? We use both 3pm and 15.00. I prefer the 24
hour system, but not everybody is the same.


How your local formats are determined will, of course, be O/S dependent.
With Windows I believe that the default format is determined by your choice
of keyboard (e.g. Windows supports Dutch/Netherlands and Dutch/Belgium) but
with Control Panel / Regional Settings you can choose the format you
personally prefer. Indeed, I have done this for my PC, by specifying a
preferred date format of year/month/day even though that it not the standard
notation for my country.

When I said 'local format' above, I mean your PC's default format as
customized by you. So if you prefer a 24-hour clock, that is what you would
see.

You say that when you go to a US site, you expect to see information
formatted according to the US conventions. Presumably this means that when
you go to a Canadian site, your would expect to see information formatted
according to Canadian conventions: but do know what the conventions are for
all countries? (Hint: Canada uses both month/day/year and day/month/year.)
My proposal would enable the designer to use my proposed CSS3 additions to
ensure that dates, times, and numbers are formatted in YOUR preferred
format.

Jul 20 '05 #3
Els
C A Upsdell wrote:
"Els" <el*********@ti scali.nl> wrote in message
news:Xn******** *********@130.1 33.1.4...
C A Upsdell wrote:
> Comments re these three related, proposed CSS 3
> additions?
>
> 1. Add 'text-transform:time' , which would transform
> text in the format hours:minutes:s econds (24 hour clock)
> to the local format for displaying the time, e.g. <span
> style="text-transform:time; ">23:15</span> might be
> rendered as 11:15PM or 23:15.
>
> 2. Add 'text-transform:date' , which would transform
> text in the format year-month-day to text in the local
> format for displaying the date, e.g. <span
> style="text-transform:date; ">2004-07-23</span> might be
> rendered 07/23/04, 23/07/04, 07/23/2004, 23/07/2004, or
> whatever.
>
> 3. Add 'text-transform:numbe r', which would transform a
> number per the local format for displaying a number,
> e.g. <span
> style="text-transform:numbe r;">123,456,789 .01</span>
> might be rendered as 123,456,789.01, 123 456 789,01,
> 123.456.789,01, or whatever.
>
> The objective, of course, is to be able to have times,
> dates, and numbers in content rendered in formats with
> which the user is most familiar, e.g. into the formats
> which in Windows are specified by Control Panel,
> Regional Settings.
Why the local format?

If I'm reading an English webpage in Holland, I expect
1000,000 to mean 1 million. If the local format would be
applied, 1000,000 means 1000 and zero thousandths.
(is that an English word?)

Same goes for the date, although maybe less problematic.
My local (Dutch) format for date is day-month-year.
But when I'm reading an American page, I expect 7-3-1999
to mean the 3rd of July, not the 7th of March.

As for the time, I don't know what the local format would
mean. The format I installed on my pc, or what is most
common in the country? We use both 3pm and 15.00. I prefer
the 24 hour system, but not everybody is the same.


How your local formats are determined will, of course, be
O/S dependent. With Windows I believe that the default
format is determined by your choice of keyboard (e.g.
Windows supports Dutch/Netherlands and Dutch/Belgium) but
with Control Panel / Regional Settings you can choose the
format you personally prefer. Indeed, I have done this for
my PC, by specifying a preferred date format of
year/month/day even though that it not the standard
notation for my country.

When I said 'local format' above, I mean your PC's default
format as customized by you. So if you prefer a 24-hour
clock, that is what you would see.

You say that when you go to a US site, you expect to see
information formatted according to the US conventions.


Yes.
Presumably this means that when you go to a Canadian site,
your would expect to see information formatted according to
Canadian conventions: but do know what the conventions are
for all countries?
I don't. But as for the date, that's why I put 30-apr-2004 on
my site, there is no way anybody can misunderstand that.
(Hint: Canada uses both month/day/year
and day/month/year.)
Not everybody will use the CSS text-transform properties,
which means I would still have to look in the source to see if
7/3/2004 means 7 March or 3 July. I prefer to be able to
recognise "Ah, another Canadian site, so it means July 7"
instead of "Ah, another Candian site, let's look in the source
if it's the Canadian format or my own PC's format".
My proposal would enable the designer
to use my proposed CSS3 additions to ensure that dates,
times, and numbers are formatted in YOUR preferred format.


My OS is in American keyboard mode. With the local format on
numbers, numbers on a Dutch site would be
a million: 1000,000.
Any Dutch person on a Dutch site expects 1000.000.

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos văo. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -
Now playing: Daryl Hall and John Oates - Rich Girl
Jul 20 '05 #4
"Els" <el*********@ti scali.nl> wrote in message
news:Xn******** ********@130.13 3.1.4...
Presumably this means that when you go to a Canadian site,
your would expect to see information formatted according to
Canadian conventions: but do know what the conventions are
for all countries?
Not everybody will use the CSS text-transform properties,
which means I would still have to look in the source to see if
7/3/2004 means 7 March or 3 July. I prefer to be able to
recognise "Ah, another Canadian site, so it means July 7"
instead of "Ah, another Candian site, let's look in the source
if it's the Canadian format or my own PC's format".


I understand your concern, but I wonder about your ability to guess (a) the
site's country and (b) the country's convention(s). E.g., what country is
my site http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/ ?

Another point is that, since the use of text-transform would tell the
browser what type of content the text is (i.e., number, date, or time), the
browser could (perhaps optionally) pass this information on to the user when
the cursor hovers over the content. E.g., hovering the cursor over '7/3/04'
might display the tooltip 'month/day/year'.



Jul 20 '05 #5
In message
<pm************ *********@twist er01.bloor.is.n et.cable.rogers .com>, C A
Upsdell <cupsdell0311XX X@-.?.invalid> writes
1. Add 'text-transform:time' , which would transform text in the format
hours:minutes: seconds (24 hour clock) to the local format for displaying the
time, e.g. <span style="text-transform:time; ">23:15</span> might be rendered
as 11:15PM or 23:15.

2. Add 'text-transform:date' , which would transform text in the format
year-month-day to text in the local format for displaying the date, e.g.
<span style="text-transform:date; ">2004-07-23</span> might be rendered
07/23/04, 23/07/04, 07/23/2004, 23/07/2004, or whatever.

3. Add 'text-transform:numbe r', which would transform a number per the
local format for displaying a number, e.g. <span
style="text-transform:numbe r;">123,456,789 .01</span> might be rendered as
123,456,789.01 , 123 456 789,01, 123.456.789,01, or whatever.


It's completely backwards. This stuff should be in the mark-up
language, not in the styling language.

E.g. <time>23:15</time> should be the HTML to include a time, and if the
user wants to configure their browser to render times in a specific way,
then that should be between them and their user agent.

As a page author, if you want the user to see 11:15PM, then just write
it that way (!).

Ditto for date.

The number one is a bit dangerous - if it isn't clear from the context
whether "." or "," is the decimal separator, then the consequences of a
style sheet not getting applied could cause an industrial accident!

--
George Lund
Jul 20 '05 #6
Els
C A Upsdell wrote:
"Els" <el*********@ti scali.nl> wrote in message
news:Xn******** ********@130.13 3.1.4...
> Presumably this means that when you go to a Canadian
> site, your would expect to see information formatted
> according to Canadian conventions: but do know what the
> conventions are for all countries?
Not everybody will use the CSS text-transform properties,
which means I would still have to look in the source to
see if 7/3/2004 means 7 March or 3 July. I prefer to be
able to recognise "Ah, another Canadian site, so it means
July 7" instead of "Ah, another Candian site, let's look
in the source if it's the Canadian format or my own PC's
format".


I understand your concern, but I wonder about your ability
to guess (a) the site's country and (b) the country's
convention(s). E.g., what country is my site
http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/ ?


Without looking at it, my first guess would be American. It
could just as well be Dutch though. My own site is a .com
domain, hosted in the USA, written in (hopefully UK-) English,
but I'm Dutch.

Then, looking at it:
I still think USA, and see your date is of an internationally
readable format: July 17, 2004. No matter where in the world I
am, I'll understand that format.
But, to know what site I'm on, I'll click on the trolley ;-)
Yep, USA. Or at least, aimed at the USA. Otherwise you
wouldn't have a seperate flag for "Canadian shoppers" :-)

Of course, the best way would be to Americanize every site in
the whole wide world, that way everybody knows what to expect
everywhere. (Mind you, I'm against that! ;-) )
Another point is that, since the use of text-transform
would tell the browser what type of content the text is
(i.e., number, date, or time), the browser could (perhaps
optionally) pass this information on to the user when the
cursor hovers over the content. E.g., hovering the cursor
over '7/3/04' might display the tooltip 'month/day/year'.


Now, there is something useful. Would have to be in the
validator too, just like the alt attribute is now. And not
accepting empty values...

Still remains the formatting of numbers though... 1000,000 !=
1000.000. You want a tooltip saying "one million"?

--
Els
http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos văo. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -
Jul 20 '05 #7
"George Lund" <ge****@lund.co .uk> wrote in message
news:Sj******** ******@lund.co. uk...
In message
<pm************ *********@twist er01.bloor.is.n et.cable.rogers .com>, C A
Upsdell <cupsdell0311XX X@-.?.invalid> writes
1. Add 'text-transform:time' , which would transform text in the format
hours:minutes: seconds (24 hour clock) to the local format for displaying thetime, e.g. <span style="text-transform:time; ">23:15</span> might be renderedas 11:15PM or 23:15.

2. Add 'text-transform:date' , which would transform text in the format
year-month-day to text in the local format for displaying the date, e.g.
<span style="text-transform:date; ">2004-07-23</span> might be rendered
07/23/04, 23/07/04, 07/23/2004, 23/07/2004, or whatever.

3. Add 'text-transform:numbe r', which would transform a number per the
local format for displaying a number, e.g. <span
style="text-transform:numbe r;">123,456,789 .01</span> might be rendered as
123,456,789.01 , 123 456 789,01, 123.456.789,01, or whatever.
It's completely backwards. This stuff should be in the mark-up
language, not in the styling language.


I had thought of HTML changes, but since the proposed new feature would
control presentation, I thought it better as CSS.
E.g. <time>23:15</time> should be the HTML to include a time, and if the
user wants to configure their browser to render times in a specific way,
then that should be between them and their user agent.

As a page author, if you want the user to see 11:15PM, then just write
it that way (!).

Ditto for date.
But this leaves the content open to confusion. E.g. is 7/03/04
month/day/year, or day/month/year, or year/month/day, or what? One can
choose to use unambiguous formats -- e.g. 2004/07/03 is pretty clearly
year/month/day -- but this will annoy a lot of people who are convinced that
their way is the right way.
The number one is a bit dangerous - if it isn't clear from the context
whether "." or "," is the decimal separator, then the consequences of a
style sheet not getting applied could cause an industrial accident!


But this problem exists today: what is, for example, '100,001'? To many it
means one hundred thousand and one; to many others who use metric notations
it means one hundred + one thousandths.


Jul 20 '05 #8
Els
C A Upsdell wrote:
"George Lund" <ge****@lund.co .uk> wrote in message
news:Sj******** ******@lund.co. uk...
In message
<pm************ *********@twist er01.bloor.is.n et.cable.roger
s.com>, C A Upsdell <cupsdell0311XX X@-.?.invalid> writes
>1. Add 'text-transform:time' , which would transform text
>in the format hours:minutes:s econds (24 hour clock) to
>the local format for displaying the >time, e.g. <span
>style="text-transform:time; ">23:15</span> might be rendered >as 11:15PM or 23:15.
>
>2. Add 'text-transform:date' , which would transform text
>in the format year-month-day to text in the local format
>for displaying the date, e.g. <span
>style="text-transform:date; ">2004-07-23</span> might be
>rendered 07/23/04, 23/07/04, 07/23/2004, 23/07/2004, or
>whatever.
>
>3. Add 'text-transform:numbe r', which would transform a
>number per the local format for displaying a number, e.g.
><span
>style="text-transform:numbe r;">123,456,789 .01</span>
>might be rendered as 123,456,789.01, 123 456 789,01,
>123.456.789,01 , or whatever.


It's completely backwards. This stuff should be in the
mark-up language, not in the styling language.


I had thought of HTML changes, but since the proposed new
feature would control presentation, I thought it better as
CSS.
E.g. <time>23:15</time> should be the HTML to include a
time, and if the user wants to configure their browser to
render times in a specific way, then that should be
between them and their user agent.

As a page author, if you want the user to see 11:15PM,
then just write it that way (!).

Ditto for date.


But this leaves the content open to confusion. E.g. is
7/03/04 month/day/year, or day/month/year, or
year/month/day, or what? One can choose to use unambiguous
formats -- e.g. 2004/07/03 is pretty clearly year/month/day
-- but this will annoy a lot of people who are convinced
that their way is the right way.
The number one is a bit dangerous - if it isn't clear from
the context whether "." or "," is the decimal separator,
then the consequences of a style sheet not getting applied
could cause an industrial accident!


But this problem exists today: what is, for example,
'100,001'? To many it means one hundred thousand and one;
to many others who use metric notations it means one
hundred + one thousandths.


yes, but it would be consistent within one site or language.
Are there English speaking countries where 100,001 means one
hundred thousand and one?

Disabling the stylesheet could be bad indeed.
Anywhere, 100001 will mean one hundred thousand and one.
The unstyled format however would have to be with "." and/or
"," too, or else it's impossible to distinguish between
1000,01 and 100,001.

--
Els
http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos văo. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -
Jul 20 '05 #9
"Els" <el*********@ti scali.nl> wrote in message
news:Xn******** *********@130.1 33.1.4...
C A Upsdell wrote:
"Els" <el*********@ti scali.nl> wrote in message
news:Xn******** ********@130.13 3.1.4...
> Presumably this means that when you go to a Canadian
> site, your would expect to see information formatted
> according to Canadian conventions: but do know what the
> conventions are for all countries?
Not everybody will use the CSS text-transform properties,
which means I would still have to look in the source to
see if 7/3/2004 means 7 March or 3 July. I prefer to be
able to recognise "Ah, another Canadian site, so it means
July 7" instead of "Ah, another Candian site, let's look
in the source if it's the Canadian format or my own PC's
format".


I understand your concern, but I wonder about your ability
to guess (a) the site's country and (b) the country's
convention(s). E.g., what country is my site
http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/ ?


Without looking at it, my first guess would be American. It
could just as well be Dutch though. My own site is a .com
domain, hosted in the USA, written in (hopefully UK-) English,
but I'm Dutch.


As it happens, I am Canadian. And, as it happens, we use two date formats:
mainly month/day/year in English-speaking Canada, and day/month/year in
French-speaking Canada, but there are plenty of exceptions.
Then, looking at it:
I still think USA, and see your date is of an internationally
readable format: July 17, 2004. No matter where in the world I
am, I'll understand that format.
And that is why I choose to use an internationally unambiguous format. But
many others do not.
But, to know what site I'm on, I'll click on the trolley ;-)
Yep, USA. Or at least, aimed at the USA. Otherwise you
wouldn't have a seperate flag for "Canadian shoppers" :-)
USA because I know that a lot more users are American than Canadian.
Another point is that, since the use of text-transform
would tell the browser what type of content the text is
(i.e., number, date, or time), the browser could (perhaps
optionally) pass this information on to the user when the
cursor hovers over the content. E.g., hovering the cursor
over '7/3/04' might display the tooltip 'month/day/year'.


Now, there is something useful. Would have to be in the
validator too, just like the alt attribute is now. And not
accepting empty values...


I would not have to be in a validator: since the browser can understand the
semantics, it needs no further information to tell it what tooltip is
appropriate.
Still remains the formatting of numbers though... 1000,000 !=
1000.000. You want a tooltip saying "one million"?


No, but it could be something like 'nnn,nnn.nn', which clearly says it uses
a ',' as a thousands separator, and '.' as a decimal separator.


Jul 20 '05 #10

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isladogs
by: isladogs | last post by:
The next Access Europe User Group meeting will be on Wednesday 1 May 2024 starting at 18:00 UK time (6PM UTC+1) and finishing by 19:30 (7.30PM). In this session, we are pleased to welcome a new presenter, Adolph Dupré who will be discussing some powerful techniques for using class modules. He will explain when you may want to use classes...
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by: conductexam | last post by:
I have .net C# application in which I am extracting data from word file and save it in database particularly. To store word all data as it is I am converting the whole word file firstly in HTML and then checking html paragraph one by one. At the time of converting from word file to html my equations which are in the word document file was convert...
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by: TSSRALBI | last post by:
Hello I'm a network technician in training and I need your help. I am currently learning how to create and manage the different types of VPNs and I have a question about LAN-to-LAN VPNs. The last exercise I practiced was to create a LAN-to-LAN VPN between two Pfsense firewalls, by using IPSEC protocols. I succeeded, with both firewalls in...
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muto222
by: muto222 | last post by:
How can i add a mobile payment intergratation into php mysql website.
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bsmnconsultancy
by: bsmnconsultancy | last post by:
In today's digital era, a well-designed website is crucial for businesses looking to succeed. Whether you're a small business owner or a large corporation in Toronto, having a strong online presence can significantly impact your brand's success. BSMN Consultancy, a leader in Website Development in Toronto offers valuable insights into creating...

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