I've not had a clear definition in my mind of "citation," and so have
avoided it. For example, if I suggest that the reputation of the New
York Times has suffered, is that a citation?
I suppose it really is and I should shift to <cite> and give up the
use oif a custom CSS tag such as a "title" class. However, that also
brings up a question. What is the proper format for a citation? I've
seen it underlined (Chicago, I guess), italicized, or left
unadorned. Is there a prefered format for HTML, or some consensus over
a global standard?
--
Haines Brown br****@hartford-hwp.com kb****@arrl.net www.hartford-hwp.com 59  5225 
"Haines Brown" <br****@teufel. hartford-hwp.com> wrote in message
news:87******** ****@teufel.har tford-hwp.com... I've not had a clear definition in my mind of "citation," and
so have avoided it. For example, if I suggest that the reputation of
the New York Times has suffered, is that a citation?
I suppose it really is and I should shift to <cite> and give up
the use oif a custom CSS tag such as a "title" class. However, that
also brings up a question. What is the proper format for a citation?
I've seen it underlined (Chicago, I guess), italicized, or left
unadorned. Is there a prefered format for HTML, or some
consensus over a global standard?
Here's my take on it, not saying it's the gospel or anything.
Use <q> for very short quotes. <p>I thought he said
<q>trouser</q> but he actually said <q>browser</q>.</p> All
browsers I've seen express this as "quote" except IE which does
nothing.
Use <cite> for longer quotes within one block element, or for
special names which should be italicized (like magazines, ships,
etc.). All browsers I've seen italicize <cite>, even IE. BTW, I
was taught in school that italics are the print version of
underlining on a typewriter, and if you can do italics it's
preferred. Also, I wouldn't do much underlining in HTML as that
makes it look like a link.
Use <blockquote> when there is a complete block element or more
quoted. Browsers will deepen the margins for this.
"Neal" <ne**@spamrcn.c om> wrote in message
news:3f******** **************@ news.rcn.com...
"Haines Brown" <br****@teufel. hartford-hwp.com> wrote in message
news:87******** ****@teufel.har tford-hwp.com... I've not had a clear definition in my mind of "citation," and so have avoided it. For example, if I suggest that the reputation of
the New York Times has suffered, is that a citation?
[snip]
Here's my take on it, not saying it's the gospel or anything.
Use <q> for very short quotes. <p>I thought he said
<q>trouser</q> but he actually said <q>browser</q>.</p> All
browsers I've seen express this as "quote" except IE which does
nothing.
Use <cite> for longer quotes within one block element, or for
special names which should be italicized (like magazines, ships,
etc.).
Citation is not the same thing as quotation. It's the identification of the
source of a quotation or of information. As the W3C explains, a <cite> tag
"contains a citation or a reference to other sources." The examples they
give are:
As <CITE>Harry S. Truman</CITE> said,
<Q lang="en-us">The buck stops here.</Q>
More information can be found in <CITE>[ISO-0000]</CITE>.
I personally don't see any point to it. For one thing, when using the kind
of browser that *does* emulate print in the way it presents a document (that
is, your garden variety graphical browser), I don't expect to see effects
that aren't traditionally called for. If I read in a book or in an
advertisement,
As Harry S. Truman said, "The buck stops here."
I would be startled if "Harry S. Truman" were italicized, because there's no
reason for it.
As you point out, book and magazine titles and the like *are* conventionally
italicized, but they are so even when they're not being cited (as in, "I saw
a copy of <?>The Observer</?> lying on his desk"), so it doesn't really
make sense, semantically speaking, to use the <cite> tag with them. You
might as well just use <em> or, if you want to leave yourself the
flexibility to change how titles appear beyond italicization, <span
class="title">
Haines Brown <br****@teufel. hartford-hwp.com> wrote: I suppose it really is and I should shift to <cite> and give up the
use oif a custom CSS tag such as a "title" class. However, that also
brings up a question. What is the proper format for a citation? I've
seen it underlined (Chicago, I guess), italicized, or left
unadorned. Is there a prefered format for HTML, or some consensus over
a global standard?
MLA style: <p><q>Yes, I did it</q> <cite>(Smith 98)</cite>.</p>
APA style: <p><q>Yes, I did it<q> <cite>(Smith, 2003, p. 98)</cite>.</p>
Chicago style: <p><q>Yes, I did it</q><cite><sup>< a
href="#footnote ">1</a></sup></cite>.</p>
Since <cite> is inline, it makes sense to use it for inline quotes. Note
that the text of the quote is within the <q> tag.
You aren't supposed to include the quote marks in the <q> tags, but since IE
doesn't insert them like it's supposed to, you can add them yourself and
then disable the automatic quotes with style sheets.
--
Michael Wilcox
mjwilco at yahoo dot com
Essential Tools for the Web Developer - http://mikewilcox.t35.com
"Harlan Messinger" <h.*********@co mcast.net> writes: "Neal" <ne**@spamrcn.c om> wrote in message
Citation is not the same thing as quotation. It's the identification
of the source of a quotation or of information. As the W3C explains,
a <cite> tag "contains a citation or a reference to other sources."
The examples they give are:
As <CITE>Harry S. Truman</CITE> said, <Q lang="en-us">The buck stops
here.</Q>
More information can be found in <CITE>[ISO-0000]</CITE>.
Yes, I don't see any relation between citation and quotation. I'm
surprised that association has come up in this thread. The two seem
entirely different things. On the other hand, I have no idea why the
WC3 examples put the <cite> around the author of a quotation. That's a
real surprise to me. It seems far removed from the usual meaning of
the word "citation," and certainly would confuse anyone used to normal
typographic practice.
...I don't expect to see effects that aren't traditionally called
for.
Exactly, the examples would seem to imply a reference to a book named
"Harry S. Truman."
As you point out, book and magazine titles and the like *are*
conventionally italicized, but they are so even when they're not
being cited (as in, "I saw a copy of <?>The Observer</?> lying on
his desk"), so it doesn't really make sense, semantically speaking,
to use the <cite> tag with them. You might as well just use <em> or,
if you want to leave yourself the flexibility to change how titles
appear beyond italicization, <span class="title">
Yes, this is the point of my question. Because there are situations in
which a work is mentioned, but not as a citation, I cooked up a
class="title" which put the content in italics, but I was criticized
for doing that and told to use <cite>. So I came to feel insecure
about it. Also, the names of articles being cited don't normally get
italicized, but simply put into quotes. and so one would not use
<cite> even though you are citing a work. Typographic convention would
do this with a citation, for example: Haines Brown,
<q>Postalgeschi chte Sudchinas.</q> To italicize the name of the work
would imply it was a book.
But let me expand on this question. What about Web pages. Would, for
example, a reference to the web page, World History Archives, but put
in quotes or italicized?
--
Haines Brown br****@hartford-hwp.com kb****@arrl.net www.hartford-hwp.com
Haines Brown wrote:
the names of articles being cited don't normally get italicized,
but simply put into quotes. and so one would not use <cite> even
though you are citing a work.
<P>In <cite class="article" >An Aggressive Conservative vs. a "Liberal
to be Determined"</cite>, I read that "a systematic review of 'Hannity
& Colmes' does reveal a show listing to the right in virtually every
respect...."
cite.article {font-style: normal;}
--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me
"Brian" <us*****@juliet remblay.com.inv alid-remove-this-part>
wrote in message news:VpmKb.7533 38$Tr4.2093067@ attbi_s03... Haines Brown wrote:
the names of articles being cited don't normally get
italicized, but simply put into quotes. and so one would not use <cite>
even though you are citing a work.
<P>In <cite class="article" >An Aggressive Conservative vs. a
"Liberal to be Determined"</cite>, I read that "a systematic review of
'Hannity & Colmes' does reveal a show listing to the right in virtually
every respect...."
cite.article {font-style: normal;}
Well, I was the one confused about the purpose of <cite> so
apologies. This example served only to support my misconception: http://www.htmldog.com/reference/htmltags/cite/ . Upon reviewing
the recommendation, I think I have it now.
However, the above markup will show italics when there is no CSS
loaded. I know it's a situation where there's no good
alternative, but seems to me the W3C has neglected this when it
comes to tags.
If we want a content-driven meaningful markup shouldn't there be
separate tags for a quoted citation, such as an article or a
chapter or a TV episode, and an italicized citation, such as a
book or movie? While we're at it, a pair of tags dedicated to
other titles which are properly italicized, like ships and such -
as they are not citations, we're stuck. If there were tags for
each of these, browsers could render them appropriately AND we'd
have meaningful markup.
Seems to me proper font and such, in this type of situation, is a
matter of meaning and not presentation. There's a meaningful
difference between:
<p>I saw Harvey last night.</p>
and:
<p>I saw <title>Harvey </title> last night.</p>
Just one example of how, in the attempt to move all "decoration "
to stylesheets, the traditions of meaningful text presentation
have to be abandoned for those whose browsers can't access CSS.
Brian <us*****@juliet remblay.com.inv alid-remove-this-part> writes: Haines Brown wrote: the names of articles being cited don't normally get italicized,
but simply put into quotes. and so one would not use <cite> even
though you are citing a work.
<P>In <cite class="article" >An Aggressive Conservative vs. a "Liberal
to be Determined"</cite>, I read that "a systematic review of 'Hannity
& Colmes' does reveal a show listing to the right in virtually every
respect...."
cite.article {font-style: normal;}
Aha! Of course! But in this example, I'd probably also want to have
the class put quotation marks around the article title. This presents
an interesting challenge! Here's its parameters:
An article class that
1. puts a double quotation mark at beginning and end of the enclosed
string,
2. and does it through the use of <q> so any nested quotations (as in
the example above), also tagged <q>, acquire the proper quotation
symbols.
So, the above example would then appear as:
In "An Aggressive Conservative vs. a 'liberal to be...
(except, of course, with typographic quotes). I bet there's a solution
to this, but it's not coming to me off hand.
--
Haines Brown br****@hartford-hwp.com kb****@arrl.net www.hartford-hwp.com
"Haines Brown" <br****@teufel. hartford-hwp.com> wrote in message
news:87******** ****@teufel.har tford-hwp.com... "Harlan Messinger" <h.*********@co mcast.net> writes:
"Neal" <ne**@spamrcn.c om> wrote in message
Citation is not the same thing as quotation. It's the identification
of the source of a quotation or of information. As the W3C explains,
a <cite> tag "contains a citation or a reference to other sources."
The examples they give are:
As <CITE>Harry S. Truman</CITE> said, <Q lang="en-us">The buck stops
here.</Q>
More information can be found in <CITE>[ISO-0000]</CITE>.
Yes, I don't see any relation between citation and quotation. I'm
surprised that association has come up in this thread. The two seem
entirely different things. On the other hand, I have no idea why the
WC3 examples put the <cite> around the author of a quotation. That's a
real surprise to me. It seems far removed from the usual meaning of
the word "citation," and certainly would confuse anyone used to normal
typographic practice.
That's *is* the meaning of "citation"--the identification of the source of
some information or of a quotation. It's just that as far as typography is
concerned, citation isn't of interest, since there isn't any typographical
convention applicable to it as such.
1. "The end of the world is coming next week," reported the Reverend Sam
Doomsday.
2. "The end of the world is coming next week," reported *The New York
Times*.
3. The *New York Times* is published daily.
1 and 2 include citations. 2 and 3 include the title of a newspaper. 2 and 3
get italics. The only way I can see using the <cite> tag at all is to deem
it to be an incorrectly named tag that's meant to denote a typographically
significant title:
1. "The end of the world is coming next week," reported the Reverend Sam
Doomsday.
2. "The end of the world is coming next week," reported <cite>The New
York Times</cite>.
3. The <cite>New York Times</cite> is published daily.
1 and 2 include citations; 2 and 3 use <cite>. I'd rather have the tag
renamed. In the meantime, I prefer your solution, using a "title" class,
better.
"Neal" <ne**@spamrcn.c om> writes: "Brian" <us*****@juliet remblay.com.inv alid-remove-this-part>
wrote in message news:VpmKb.7533 38$Tr4.2093067@ attbi_s03...
Well, I was the one confused about the purpose of <cite> so
apologies. This example served only to support my misconception:
http://www.htmldog.com/reference/htmltags/cite/ .
I'll say! The example there is:
<p>And he said <cite>banana</cite>.</p>
This makes no sense to me at all, for it appears a simple quotation.
If we want a content-driven meaningful markup shouldn't there be
separate tags for a quoted citation, such as an article or a
chapter or a TV episode, and an italicized citation, such as a
book or movie?
The previous message in this dialog seems to have it: use of an
appropriate class, such as class="article" .
While we're at it, a pair of tags dedicated to
other titles which are properly italicized, like ships and such -
as they are not citations, we're stuck. If there were tags for
each of these, browsers could render them appropriately AND we'd
have meaningful markup.
Excuse my ignorance, but are ships names, such as USS Irex SS-482,
italicized? If so, that would not be a citation, and so I guess one
has to cook up a custom class, such as <spam class="title">. ... Does
this satisfy your preceived need?
Seems to me proper font and such, in this type of situation, is a
matter of meaning and not presentation. There's a meaningful
difference between:
<p>I saw Harvey last night.</p>
and:
<p>I saw <title>Harvey </title> last night.</p>
Just one example of how, in the attempt to move all "decoration "
to stylesheets, the traditions of meaningful text presentation
have to be abandoned for those whose browsers can't access CSS.
Not sure I quite follow you here. Not to strain the point, but there
seem three possibilities:
1. I placed the volume <span class="title">H arvey</span> on the table
2. I spoke with Harvey last night and also his wife.
3. I saw <cite>Harvey</cite> at the Majestic theater last night.
Granted, non-CSS browswers won't see the distinctions, but I'm not
sure there is any way around this.
--
Haines Brown br****@hartford-hwp.com kb****@arrl.net www.hartford-hwp.com This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics | |
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