Hi,
I'll be very grateful if somebody can explain me why my Opera 7.23
(runing under linux) doesn't show me inner tables. Using below code I
can see only "inner table 1". There is no problem with other browsers
(I checked it under Konqueror).
Thank you in advance for your help.
Regards.
/Mariusz
<HTML>
<HEAD>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<TABLE BORDER=1 WIDTH=800 ALIGN="center">
<TR ALIGN="center">
<TD ALIGN="left" WIDTH=100>
<TABLE BORDER=1 ALIGN="left" WIDTH=100%>
<TR ALIGN="left" WIDTH=100%><TD ALIGN="left">in ner table 1</TD></TR>
</TABLE>
<TABLE BORDER=1 ALIGN="left" WIDTH=100%>
<TR ALIGN="left" WIDTH=100%><TD ALIGN="left">in ner table 2</TD></TR>
</TABLE>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
</BODY>
</HTML> 44  3882 
Mariusz Jedrzejewski wrote: I'll be very grateful if somebody can explain me why my Opera 7.23
(runing under linux) doesn't show me inner tables. Using below code I
can see only "inner table 1". There is no problem with other browsers
(I checked it under Konqueror).
<snip code>
Your HTML is invalid, so you can't know if its a fault with the code, or a
fault with the user agent. Its best to eliminate the measurable problem
first. http://validator.w3.org/
Additionally, there should be no reason to use nested tables... unless you
are abusing them for non-tabular purposes: http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Tableless_layouts
--
David Dorward <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Mariusz Jedrzejewski wrote: Hi,
I'll be very grateful if somebody can explain me why my Opera 7.23
(runing under linux) doesn't show me inner tables. Using below code I
can see only "inner table 1". There is no problem with other browsers
(I checked it under Konqueror).
[snip]
I think it is the "width=100% " on the first inner table that causes it to take
up all the available space. (How can you have 2 tables each taking 100% of the
space?) I just changed the widths of the inner tables to "50%" and Opera
showed both.
ps: It is nothing to do with whether or not this is a layout table! And nested
tables are often a good idea, and can be used for reasons other than layout.
--
Barry Pearson http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/ http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/ http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/
Barry Pearson wrote: Mariusz Jedrzejewski wrote: Hi,
I'll be very grateful if somebody can explain me why my Opera 7.23
(runing under linux) doesn't show me inner tables. Using below code I
can see only "inner table 1". There is no problem with other browsers
(I checked it under Konqueror).
[snip]
I think it is the "width=100% " on the first inner table that causes
it to take up all the available space. (How can you have 2 tables
each taking 100% of the space?) I just changed the widths of the
inner tables to "50%" and Opera showed both.
Whoops, my mistake! You can have 2 at 100%, of course, because they should
follow one-another, they should not be inline. But - after changing the widths
to 50%, I did see both on Opera, side by side, so the answer appears to be
there somewhere. (If you changed them to, say, 90% & 90%, you would see just a
bit of the second one in Opera. It appears that IE & Opera are treating them
as inline somehow, while others don't).
I suggest you start from clean mark-up - there is a lot of redundant stuff
there which is confusing things.
--
Barry Pearson http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/ http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/ http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/
[x-posting trimmed to ciwah, since this reply does not really belong
in opera.*]
Barry Pearson wrote:
nested tables are often a good idea
I've yet to see one good idea executed with tested tables. Perhaps
I've been looking in the wrong places.
and can be used for reasons other than layout.
....such as?
--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me
Brian wrote:
I've yet to see one good idea executed with tested tables. Perhaps
I've been looking in the wrong places.
Anything particularly wrong with this application (transitional markup
excepted)?
<http://www.cv6.org/ship/armament.htm>
--
Joel.
Joel Shepherd wrote: Brian wrote:
I've yet to see one good idea executed with tested tables.
Anything particularly wrong with this application (transitional
markup excepted)?
<http://www.cv6.org/ship/armament.htm>
Strict is preferable, but even keeping the dtd, one could improve the
markup of the tables. There are no th elements, but there should be.
For example,
<td>Projectil e Weight:</td> should probably be <th>Projectil e
Weight:</th>. And
<tr>
<td class="s">5/38-10/38</td>
<td class="s">10/38-10/41</td>
<td class="s">10/41-2/42</td>
<!-- etc. -->
</tr>
All of these td elements are table headers, and should be marked up as
such. And they should probably be marked up inside a thead element.
But you were no doubt following up my point about nested tables being
bad practice. Here's my on-topic reply: After a cursory look "under
the hood," it appears that the site author used tables for layout. The
*nested* tables -- some of them, at least -- contain tabular data. But
the outer tables do not contain tabular data.
Look at it this way. There are several td elements that contain images
of browning guns. Pick one. Now find it's table header cell.
--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me
Brian wrote: [x-posting trimmed to ciwah, since this reply does not really belong
in opera.*]
Barry Pearson wrote:
nested tables are often a good idea
I've yet to see one good idea executed with tested tables. Perhaps
I've been looking in the wrong places.
Perhaps. Or perhaps we have different opinions about what are good ideas. I
evaluate ideas using engineering principles.
I have an advantage that I don't have a hang-up about layout tables. Simple
layout tables can be be accessible, efficient, effective, flexible, robust,
future-proof, and easy to author. Statements to the contrary don't stand up to
scrutiny.
If I have used a layout table, and between half and 2/3rds of my pages do, I
sometimes use a table for tabular data within them. Or sometimes the table
within them is on the dividing line between layout & tabular data. For
example, I have columns of <td> buttons that have <th> headers for sets of
them because the links come in sets. and can be used for reasons other than layout.
...such as?
Consider a table with (say) a column for a date then one for extracts from
articles or reports, hence showing a sequence. The extracts may have tables.
Here is an example (the big table with green header cells, not the layout
tables). The page was created a long time ago, so I wouldn't engineer it the
same now. But there is a nested table at 1999-12-06. http://www.childsupportanalysis.co.u...iament_old.htm
--
Barry Pearson http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/ http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/ http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/
Barry Pearson wrote: Brian wrote:
Barry Pearson wrote:
nested tables are often a good idea
I've yet to see one good idea executed with tested tables.
Perhaps I've been looking in the wrong places.
Perhaps. Or perhaps we have different opinions about what are good
ideas. I evaluate ideas using engineering principles.
uh huh. Is that some arcane science, or could you elaborate on this
evaluation process of yours?
I have an advantage that I don't have a hang-up about layout
tables.
(You have a *dis*advantage that...)
Do you also support using <blockquote> to indent text? How about using
<h2> to change font size and weight?
Simple layout tables can be be accessible, efficient, effective,
flexible, robust, future-proof, and easy to author.
Layout tables are an (ab)use of an element to achieve the formatting
effects of certain browsers.
--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me
Brian wrote: Barry Pearson wrote:
[snip] Perhaps. Or perhaps we have different opinions about what are good
ideas. I evaluate ideas using engineering principles.
uh huh. Is that some arcane science, or could you elaborate on this
evaluation process of yours?
I assume that you accept the value of engineering. (Engineering is a
systematic approach to trying to achieve required output qualities within the
constraints of the project). I assume that you are asking about which methods
I use for cases like this. (It would be better to talk about "methods" or
"processes" than "science", in this context).
I base my approach on OPENframework. (I am familiar with other methods too).
This uses an abstract system architecture, then applies a set of methods to
achieve the desired qualities of the system. It isn't magic - much of it is a
comprehensive set of checklists to ensure that you have applied your prior
knowledge, and the extra knowledge you have to gain for the purpose, in a
systematic way. (I don't know if the system architecture books are still on
sale. The methods were only ever available as part of the training courses.
You do *not* want to get me started on a training course, unless you can spend
a week in a classroom! I have delivered the training courses in several places
around the world, including Silicon Valley!)
What we are trying to do is make decisions among various ways of doing things.
Let's keep this on-topic, so we are trying to judge whether layout tables or
tableless layouts or hybrids or something else is better for a given project.
I'll translate the standard terms into web site terms.
We need to know what "better" means. It doesn't have an absolute meaning - it
has to be evaluated according to the criteria of the key players. We have to
ensure that the decision is reasonable for each of these people. And for a web
site, and its pages, the (4) key players are:
- The senior managers/owners of the organisation that is exploiting the web
site for business purposes.
- The content designers and authors responsible for achieving the managers'
aims.
- The people (perhaps webmasters) who have to keep it up and running.
- The users, typically (but not only) the clients of business organisation.
We need to know what they are judging. It isn't the whole (8-box) system,
because much of it doesn't change with the layout technique. (We are not
trying to evaluate TCP/IP!) We appear to be evaluating:
- The architectural/structural approach. (Guiding principles of mark-up &
CSS).
- The tools available to the content designers and authors. (Authoring tools,
etc).
- The tools available to the users. (Browsers, visual & non-visual).
The quality judgements fall into the following (5) categories, all of which
can apply to each of the things we are judging, and all of which are relevant
to the key players in their different ways.
- Do the techniques make the material available in the required range of
circumstances? (Eg. on a mobile phone, if that is what the managers require).
- Are the results usable/accessible to the target audience? (This really needs
experimental evaluation).
- Is the performance adequate? (Download time. First rendering time.
Response-time for forms, etc).
- What about security? (I don't think it makes much difference here).
- What is the potential for change? This is one of the most important
qualities. CSS Positioning is claimed to deliver this. In practice, that is a
"big lie". It rarely offers more dramatic layout changes, purely via CSS
changes, than providing a mirror-image of the page. Other changes tend to need
mark-up or content changes.
What are the project constraints/parameters that have to be satisfied?
- Cost. (Would extra authoring cost be better spent on, say, promotion?)
- Risk. (Judge this for all of the key players).
- Time.
- Asset-building. (Does the development build re-usable assets?)
In order to help evaluate approaches, I built a whole range of pages, using
different techniques, so that I could compare them according to all the above
criteria. I have posted URLs to some of these on various occasions. I have now
uploaded all except 3 of them (I'm still trying to make those presentable)
with an index & summary at:
http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/layout_5_3/
Another thing I did was take a 30-day trial of IBM Home Page Reader to see
what such pages "appeared" like using a non-visual browser.
Ultimately, the judgements are somewhat subjective. How can I judge whether a
blind person elsewhere has the same experience that I have when rendering a
page? There are still lots of judgement-calls, of course. As I said, this
isn't magic. But the above 3-dimensional checklist reduces the number of
issues I've overlooked, and focuses the mind on what matters. What matters
aren't my prejudices or yours, not my pre-conceived ideas or yours, but the
practical realities now, and (via "potential for change") in the future. The
method typically undermines pre-conceived ideas! Don't do engineering if you
want to cling to views that cannot be supported by evidence, or that are
irrelevant to what is being attempted.
Simple layout tables can work very effectively. Output qualities. Project
parameters. They are an inevitable, and valuable, part of the future.
I have an advantage that I don't have a hang-up about layout
tables.
(You have a *dis*advantage that...)
In what way can avoiding a hang-up be a disadvantage? No - it is an advantage.
It enables me to use techniques that satisfy all the important players,
according to the above method.
As far as I am concerned, a layout table is only "wrong" (in a given case) if
it doesn't match the required engineering qualities. And it happens that
layout tables typically match them very well! They can be accessible,
effective, usable, fast, secure, future-proof, flexible, and cheap to
implement & support.
Do you also support using <blockquote> to indent text? How about using
<h2> to change font size and weight?
Before I started to use CSS, yes (except for the <h2> bit!). Now I have built
a set of re-usable rules to achieve much better results. For example:
- I have class called "blocklist" . It takes a <ul> and renders it somewhat
like a <blockquote>. It does what before I used <blockquote> for.
- I have a class called "section" which wraps a header and its associated
content and indents them, in a nested way. This helps make structured mark-up
better presentationall y. http://www.barry.pearson.name/articl...ra_effects.htm Simple layout tables can be be accessible, efficient, effective,
flexible, robust, future-proof, and easy to author.
Layout tables are an (ab)use of an element to achieve the formatting
effects of certain browsers.
The formatting is defined in the "visual formatting model" by W3C. Claims that
HTML is layout-neutral are an attempt to re-write history - a "big lie".
W3C didn't invent tables. They first appeared in the Mosaic Alpha-8 version in
December 1994. I defy you or anyone here to provide evidence that they were
*not* intended for layout purposes. Even if that wasn't the initial intention,
I defy you or anyone here to provide evidence that the originators of tables
were at all upset when layout tables "took off" during 1995/6.
And I defy you or anyone here to provide evidence that CSS1 and CSS2 were
intended to avoid the need for layout tables. I don't believe that was on the
agenda. So why should anyone believe that they can do what they were not
intended to do?
--
Barry Pearson http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/ http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/ http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/ This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics | |
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