Hello
This is a rant. If you don't want to read it then don't, simple really.
I usually spend my working life buried away in the back ends (fnar) of
business systems. Serverside stuff over presentation stuff.
I've managed to steer clear of Microsoft stuff for most of my working
life, not really by design, it's just the way it turned out.
Recently I was given the task of setting up a website from scratch
including the front end.
I chose Opera(V9.27), Firefox(V2.0.0. n) and Internet Explorer(V7.0) as
my dev browsers as these were the ones used by the eventual users of the
site.
What a nightmare.
I wanted to use Cascading Stylesheets as widely as possible.
Firefox and Opera (almost invariably) render my style code in the same
way. Internet Explorer is ALWAYS the exception. Dissapearing <div>s non
appearing padding/margins, divs that don't expand when they are supposed
to or do expand when they are not supposed to ... I could go on but
there seems little point.
Now I've always stood back when people dis' Microsoft and thought, "well
OK but it can't be that bad". Well actually it is. For gods sake, when
are these people going to GET A GRIP. IE7 is RUBBISH when it comes to
css, at least in my experience.
I have spent(wasted) more time trying to get the layout to work in IE
when it works perfectly in the other browsers (even in older versions of
those browsers) than I care to remember.
The really sad thing is I have no option but to support this pile of
poo, it's by far the most widely used browser out there. If I had my way
I delete the bloody thing and be done with it.
Microsoft Internet Explorer 7.0 Surely a triumph of marketing over
usefullness.
Rant Over
Idaho
Jun 27 '08
60  2435 
DuncanIdaho <Du************ **@googlemail.c omwrote in
news:2M******** *************** *******@bt.com:
Blinky the Shark wrote:
>DuncanIdaho wrote:
>>Not sure what you mean by 'quirks mode'
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/quirks-mode.html
Thanks for the link, interesting, OK, but this is not the issue then
as I have a doctype declaration right at the head of the doc.
Er well actually the document states
"Moreover, put the doctype declaration at the very start, since some
browsers go to Quirks Mode, if there is anything (even a comment)
before it... "
Well actually I have
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
Sorry, didn't read the whole thread before my prior reply.
It is now time for you provide a URL to this page that is giving your
problems.
--
Richard
Killing all google groups posts
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
DuncanIdaho wrote:
Not sure what you mean by 'quirks mode'
I have this
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
Is that what you mean ?
Have a look at this, please: http://tekrider.net/html/doctype.php
Anyway, I'm not convinced by all this error handling stuff.
Please be convinced!
--
-bts
-Friends don't let friends drive Windows
rf wrote:
DuncanIdaho <Du************ **@googlemail.c omwrote in
news:DL******** *************@b t.com:
>>>
Not sure what you mean by 'quirks mode'
Then bloody google for it. You will find three hundred and seventy three
thousand references to it.
Irrelevant, it was a passing comment.
And don't swear at me.
>
>I have this
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
The above line puts IE into quirks mode.
Anything at all, even a comment, before the doctype puts IE into quirks
mode.
This is one of the reasons you should not use XHTML,
snip annoying stuff
Really, well now I'm even more annoyed, I think I'll put a link on the
front page suggesting people download Opera or Firefox.
As for posting a URL, well I'm working on a company intranet behind a
firewall, the network boffins laughed when I suggested they open up so I
can post URLs, they are setting me up a nice isolated server so I can
post stuff here.
Idaho
Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
>Not sure what you mean by 'quirks mode'
I have this
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
Is that what you mean ?
Have a look at this, please:
http://tekrider.net/html/doctype.php
Been there, read that, tried everything.
>
>Anyway, I'm not convinced by all this error handling stuff.
Please be convinced!
Anyway, thanks to everyone for all the input, it wasn't really an
attempt to get someone else to fix my problems, I'm quite happy to try
and figure it out myself (with a little help from my friends). Can't say
I've changed my views in any way at the moment. Still, perhaps IE 8 will
be better.
Thanks again
Idaho
DuncanIdaho wrote:
Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>DuncanIdaho wrote:
>><?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
Have a look at this, please:
http://tekrider.net/html/doctype.php
Been there, read that, tried everything.
...including changing your page to HTML 4.01 Strict? Give it a try.
>>Anyway, I'm not convinced by all this error handling stuff.
Please be convinced!
.. Can't say I've changed my views in any way at the moment.
A little experimentation is always fun - and may prove useful in this
case.
Still, perhaps IE 8 will be better.
Hah. Don't count on it! (Oh, and lots of people are still using IE 6,
y'know.)
--
-bts
-Friends don't let friends drive Windows
On 7 mai, 06:56, rf <r...@x.invalid wrote:
DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho2. ..@googlemail.c omwrote innews:DL****** *************** @bt.com:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
The above line puts IE into quirks mode.
Richard,
Duncan is using IE 7 and that xml-declaration triggering quirks mode
was fixed in IE 7.
"
Details on our CSS changes for IE7
Details on some of the other bugs (from sources other than the
positionisevery thing.net list) that we fixed:
(...)
<?xmlprolog no longer causes quirks mode
" http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/08/22/712830.aspx
Regards, Gérard
On 6 mai, 08:45, DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho2. ..@googlemail.c omwrote:
Recently I was given the task of setting up a website from scratch
including the front end.
I chose Opera(V9.27), Firefox(V2.0.0. n) and Internet Explorer(V7.0) as
my dev browsers as these were the ones used by the eventual users of the
site.
What a nightmare.
Duncan,
If you want precise help, contextual help, first make sure your
webpage passes markup validation, also passes CSS validation and then
provide an URL where the problem occurs along with a short, clear
description of the problem.
Why we won't help you
"Validation may reveal your problem. (...) Validation may solve your
problem." http://diveintomark.org/archives/200..._wont_help_you
I also fully agree with those saying to stop catering for IE 6 users.
IE 6 is just too buggy in my opinion.
Some recommendations :
1- avoid setAttribute because it's buggy in IE 7; use DOM 2 HTML
methods instead
2- avoid relying too much on float: it's very buggy in IE 7
3- consult this page for CSS webpage templates which will work in IE
7: http://www.gtalbot.org/NvuSection/Nv...bpageTemplates
You coded:
textanchor.setA ttribute("class ", nodeType);
Use instead
textanchor.clas sName = nodeType;
<span>
<a class="node" href="javascrip t:getMenuUpdate ('1')">Jeweller y</a>
</span>
javascript : pseudo-protocol should never be in href attribute. This is
a commonly seen error in accessibility.A n href should always
referenced a retrievable resource on the web. Always. Otherwise, it
will create problems for those with javascript support disabled or
inexistent. As coded, your <ais not compliant with basic
accessibility guidelines.
Useful reading for general web development:
Using Web Standards in your Web Pages http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs...your_Web_Pages
Web development mistakes, redux by Roger Johansson http://www.456bereastreet.com/archiv...istakes_redux/
Truth & Consequences of web site design by Chris Beal.
14 well written articles on very frequently encountered mistakes on
web design and how to correct them. I highly recommend these articles
to beginners. http://pages.prodigy.net/chris_beall/TC/index.html
a.leaf{
text-decoration: none;
color: rgb(254, 100, 253);
font-size: 0.75em;
}
Using font-size: 0.75em;
is demanding to the browser to set the font-size to 75% of the
preferred normal size for the user! This is NOT what I would do.
Web standards checklist by Russ Weakley. http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/checklist.htm
In 44 items, Russ covers all the issues a web designer required for a
web designer to create web standards compliant websites. Just
excellent! (for beginners and intermediates)
Regards, Gérard
--
Internet Explorer 7 bugs (130 bugs so far) http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE7Bugs/
Internet Explorer 7 bugs (79bugs so far) http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE7Bugs/
On 6 mai, 08:45, DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho2. ..@googlemail.c omwrote:
<a class="node" href="javascrip t:getMenuUpdate ('1')">Jeweller y</a>
Duncan,
To be more thorough, accurate on that issue...:
"javascript :" links break accessibility and usability of webpages in
every browser.
* "javascript :" pseudo-links become dysfunctional when javascript
support is disabled or inexistent. Several corporations allow their
employees to surf on the web but under strict security policies: no
javascript enabled, no java, no activeX, no Flash. For various reasons
(security, public access, text browsers, etc..), about 4% to 8% of
users on the web surf with javascript disabled.
* "javascript :" links will interfere with advanced features in tab-
capable browsers: eg. middle-click on links, Ctrl+click on links, tab-
browsing features in extensions, etc.
* "javascript :" links will interfere with the process of indexing
webpages by search engines.
* "javascript :" links interfere with assistive technologies (e.g.
voice browsers) and several web-aware applications (e.g. PDAs and
mobile browsers).
* "javascript :" links also interfere with "mouse gestures"
features implemented in browsers.
* Protocol scheme "javascript :" will be reported as an error by
link validators and link checkers.
Regards, Gérard
On 6 mai, 09:38, Andy Dingley <ding...@codesm iths.comwrote:
On 6 May, 13:45, DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho2. ..@googlemail.c omwrote:
IE7 is RUBBISH when it comes to css, at least in my experience.
It's merely "poor" on CSS, only "rubbish" if you ask it to work with
non-conformant HTML & CSS. Mostly it gets it wrong in the areas around
error correction. Code perfectly (which isn't _that_ hard) and you'll
avoid the majority of the problems.
Andy,
While I really want to agree with you, it must be said that
nevertheless IE 7 is really still very buggy (and I mean bugs here,
incorrect implementations of CSS 2.1, incorrect implementations of DOM
1 Core, DOM 1 HTML, DOM 2 Core interfaces, even HTML 4.01) when
comparing with Firefox 2, Opera 9.50, Safari 3.1.1.
I've said about 12 months ago that IE 7 had about 750 bugs in HTML 4,
CSS 1 and CSS 2.1 and in DOM 1. Yes, writing valid markup code and
valid CSS code will avoid a majority of problems and issues but in a
minority of cases, you will still have headaches, nightmares, etc...
with IE 7.
Worst bugs so far in IE 7:
- float implementation
- z-index implementation
- adjoining margin collapsing
- inherit keyword
- still many positioning issues
- inline box model implementation
- negative margins
130 bugs in Internet Explorer 7 (but most likely 750 bugs) http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE7Bugs/
Gérard
GTalbot wrote:
On 6 mai, 08:45, DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho2. ..@googlemail.c omwrote:
>Recently I was given the task of setting up a website from scratch
including the front end.
I chose Opera(V9.27), Firefox(V2.0.0. n) and Internet Explorer(V7.0) as
my dev browsers as these were the ones used by the eventual users of the
site.
What a nightmare.
Duncan,
If you want precise help, contextual help, first make sure your
webpage passes markup validation, also passes CSS validation and then
provide an URL where the problem occurs along with a short, clear
description of the problem.
OK, well lots of good advice there and lots of reading to be done but
I've already explained elsewhere on this thread why I am unable to post
a URL.
Actually I never explicitly asked for help, all I wanted to do was have
a grizzle about the nonsense that I was experiencing with Microsoft IE 7
call it catharsis if you like.
The line of code
textanchor.clas sName = nodeType; works in all my browsers seemingly
independant of the DOCTYPE declaration, sorry if that offends anyone
it's just observation that leads me to this conclusion. HTML DOM, XHTML
DOM, FOO DOM whatever, it works regardless and for that I thank all of
you who suggested it. This code does however make my code asymetric, as
someone who has spent his entire working life using Object Oriented
languages this offends me.
Finally then, the fact that so many people have taken the time and
trouble to explain why IE doesn't work in the way I was expecting
(hoping) it would (ie like other browsers) only leads me to believe that
my original assertion (slightly more qualified this time) is indeed
correct. For me, in my experience, as someone who is working out of his
comfort zone, IE 7 is indeed rubbish. However I have no choice but to
live with it. Perhaps the developers of this piece of software read this
list, at least it appears so from other responses. If so, for gods sake
get a grip and get it working like other browsers do, rightly or wrongly
it's what the vast majority of people who write for the web want.
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