Hi!
Okay, so positions on "text/html" XHTML are totally contradicting. Anyway!
I hope there's more consensus about "applicatio n/xml" XHTML.
I've recently learned that Opera 9.0b2 does not only evaluate HTTP header,
BOM and XML declaration to determine the character encoding of an XHTML
document sent as "applicatio n/xml", but also the "meta" element. For
example, <http://schneegans.de/sv/test-cases/?case=meta-only-encoding> is
rendered as "Česká republika". In contrast, Firefox displays "?esk?
republika", and IE even aborts parsing.
If you agree with me and think that this behavior is wrong, you might
want to post a follow-up to <news:op******* ***********@new s.opera.com>.
--
All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Denmark. And
therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "Jeg er dansker!"
Jun 8 '06
43  3176 
Henri Sivonen wrote: Omitting whitespace between attribute specifications is almost always
a typo, not a deliberate decision.
But with HTML it is harmless--like making the typo of putting two spaces
instead of one between attributes.
It's definitely harmless for HTML parsers. But what about tag soup
parsers? I will put a document containing
<a href="foo"class ="bar">
somewhere and check if spiders request 'foo"class="bar ' or similar.
--
All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Denmark. And
therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "Jeg er dansker!"
Christoph Schneegans <Ch*******@Schn eegans.de> wrote: Do you dispute the fact that XML Schema validation is more powerful than
DTD validation?
Before changing to another topic, first let's finish off your original
claim;
My original claim was that XHTML allows more powerful validation. I really
don't know why you assume I was referring to XML DTD based validation.
I assumed no such thing. You attempted to change the subject from DTD
based validation to Schema or RELAX NG validation.
do you agree that XHTML DTD based validation is not "more powerful"
than HTML DTD validation?
Sure. This has no relevance at all.
I seem to remember that you claimed this as an advantage of XHTML.
If you want meaningful validation
results, use an XML Schema validator such as <http://schneegans.de/sv/>.
A different subject not related to the alleged advantages of XHTML.
FYI Schema and/or RELAX NG validation is also available for HTML. All additional XHTML constraints can be emulated for HTML validation.
Using freaky regular expressions?
By editing the files used by the validator, this doesn't involve regular
expressions.
If I wanted to disallow
<p title=""style=" "></p>
in favor of
<p title="" style=""></p>
in my HTML documents, how would I do that?
Ask someone who knows SGML. As referenced in my resource on using a
custom DTD, Eric B. Bednarz once helped me to emulate some extra
constraints. He has posted in this thread, maybe he is willing to help
with that if you are serious about using it. This is noted on the quoted resource, and it links to an explanation of
how to change non DTD constraints, again using a common example.
Most authors don't want to create a custom DTD or a custom SGML
declaration.
No-one has anything to gain from checking text/html documents for the
extra constraints that XHTML requires, by definition this includes "most
authors".
Far from it! Many authors wonder why e.g.
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN">
<html>
<head><title> </title></head>
<body>
<p>foo</p>
<!------>
<p>bar</p>
<!------>
</body>
</html>
is not displayed in Firefox as intended, although this document is valid
according to the W3C Validator. <http://valet.webthing. com/page/> doesn't
output a warning either, BTW.
The above code also validates (using a DTD validator) if I change it to
XHTML. Again before having another change of subject, I'm still trying to find
out what you meant by your original claim that XHTML syntax is simpler
than HTML syntax.
'<p ltr<span></span</p>' is valid HTML syntax. It's not simple at all.
What you refer to as "valid HTML" is an error that isn't picked up by a
validator using the public DTD.
Which specification says that '<p ltr<span></span</p>' is not valid HTML?
As I said it's an error, but valid (assuming DTD validation using the
public validation profile). I've pointed you to a resource that allows
this error the be picked up by a DTD validator. Like almost all other HTML parsers IE's error recovery mechanism
allows XHTML served as text/html to be parsed as pseudo HTML without
necessarily causing problems.
IE supports anything that is labelled "text/html" and has some angle
brackets in it. In this sense, it also supports HTML or XHTML. IE doesn't
parse "text/html" XHTML using an XML parser, and it doesn't parse
"text/html" HTML using an HTML parser either. The difference is that I
don't suggest the former, while you do suggest the latter.
By that measure there are no CSS or DOM capable browsers because they
all have bugs. An potential obscure issue versus a fundamental parsing
model does not compare. You are avoiding the point made that contrary to your claim that the
media type used made no difference, that a document served as
application/xml may not be recognized as XHTML.
That's what the W3C says. It does not happen nevertheless.
You mean that you haven't seen it happen, excuse me for attaching little
to no value to that.
You have't seen it happen either. Otherwise you would happily disclose the
name of that user agent.
I haven't tested for it, nor am I about to for your education
considering that application/xml should not be used to serve XHTML,
which itself has virtually no value at this point in time.
--
Spartanicus
"Spartanicu s" wrote: Do you dispute the fact that XML Schema validation is more powerful than
DTD validation?
Before changing to another topic, first let's finish off your original
claim;
My original claim was that XHTML allows more powerful validation. I really
don't know why you assume I was referring to XML DTD based validation.
I assumed no such thing. You attempted to change the subject from DTD
based validation to Schema or RELAX NG validation.
The subject never was "DTD based validation", it was "validation ". XML
validation includes XML Schema validation and RELAX NG validation, of
course.
FYI Schema and/or RELAX NG validation is also available for HTML.
I doubt it. > All additional XHTML constraints can be emulated for HTML validation.
Using freaky regular expressions?
By editing the files used by the validator, this doesn't involve regular
expressions.
If I wanted to disallow
<p title=""style=" "></p>
in favor of
<p title="" style=""></p>
in my HTML documents, how would I do that?
Ask someone who knows SGML.
How can you claim that "all additional XHTML constraints can be emulated"
with HTML if you don't know how to do that? Many authors wonder why e.g.
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN">
<html>
<head><title> </title></head>
<body>
<p>foo</p>
<!------>
<p>bar</p>
<!------>
</body>
</html>
is not displayed in Firefox as intended, although this document is valid
according to the W3C Validator.
The above code also validates (using a DTD validator) if I change it to
XHTML.
'<!------>' is not even well-formed XML, and all XML validators know that.
Of course, SGML validators such as OpenSP that try to act like XML
validators don't, see <http://esw.w3.org/topic/MarkupValidator/XML_Limitations >. Which specification says that '<p ltr<span></span</p>' is not valid HTML?
As I said it's an error, but valid (assuming DTD validation using the
public validation profile).
So which specification says that '<p ltr<span></span</p>' is erroneous?
--
All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Denmark. And
therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "Jeg er dansker!"
In article <e6**********@n ews.christoph.s chneegans.de>,
Christoph Schneegans <Ch*******@Schn eegans.de> wrote: Henri Sivonen wrote:
Omitting whitespace between attribute specifications is almost always
a typo, not a deliberate decision.
But with HTML it is harmless--like making the typo of putting two spaces
instead of one between attributes.
It's definitely harmless for HTML parsers. But what about tag soup
parsers?
What kind of difference is there, according to your definitions, between
an HTML parser and a tag soup parser?
Anyway, AFAIK, it is harmless for the text/html parsers deployed in
notable browsers.
I will put a document containing
<a href="foo"class ="bar">
somewhere and check if spiders request 'foo"class="bar ' or similar.
Well, I can't know if there's a broken spider somewhere out there that
does not support syntax that is OK according to browsers, according to
HTML5 and according to SGML.
--
Henri Sivonen hs******@iki.fi http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
Mozilla Web Author FAQ: http://mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html
In article <e6**********@n ews.christoph.s chneegans.de>,
Christoph Schneegans <Ch*******@Schn eegans.de> wrote: FYI Schema and/or RELAX NG validation is also available for HTML.
I doubt it.
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/validator/
provides RELAX NG validation for HTML.
There's no reason why the same approach couldn't be taken with XSD. The
reason why XSD does not work with my validation service is that the
Xerces XSD validator has a crasher bug (null dereference) and I don't
care enough about XSD to fix the bug myself.
--
Henri Sivonen hs******@iki.fi http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
Mozilla Web Author FAQ: http://mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html
Christoph Schneegans <Ch*******@Schn eegans.de> wrote: My original claim was that XHTML allows more powerful validation. I really
don't know why you assume I was referring to XML DTD based validation.
I assumed no such thing. You attempted to change the subject from DTD
based validation to Schema or RELAX NG validation.
The subject never was "DTD based validation", it was "validation ". XML
validation includes XML Schema validation and RELAX NG validation, of
course.
You should have made that clear from the start. There are different
definitions of validation. Afaik in SGML it is defined as "checking a
document against a DTD", nothing more. Given the topic of this group
this is the definition I apply unless the poster mentions that he is
referring to XML validation. FYI Schema and/or RELAX NG validation is also available for HTML.
I doubt it.
One that was announced in this group: http://badame.vse.cz/validator/
there are likely to be others. If I wanted to disallow
<p title=""style=" "></p>
in favor of
<p title="" style=""></p>
in my HTML documents, how would I do that?
Ask someone who knows SGML.
How can you claim that "all additional XHTML constraints can be emulated"
with HTML if you don't know how to do that?
Due to your failure to note that you were referring to XML validation my
responses until now assumed DTD validation.
So now I have to ask why you'd want to disallow "<p
title=""style=" "></p>" in HTML in the first place, given that it's valid
and a brief test doesn't demonstrate it causing a problem. The above code also validates (using a DTD validator) if I change it to
XHTML.
'<!------>' is not even well-formed XML, and all XML validators know that.
Of course, SGML validators such as OpenSP that try to act like XML
validators don't, see <http://esw.w3.org/topic/MarkupValidator/XML_Limitations >.
Checking for XML constraints that are missed by SGML validators can be
achieved by using an XML validator and internally transcoding HTML to
XHTML ( http://badame.vse.cz/validator/ does this). No need to author
XHTML because of "more powerful means for validation". Which specification says that '<p ltr<span></span</p>' is not valid HTML?
As I said it's an error, but valid (assuming DTD validation using the
public validation profile).
So which specification says that '<p ltr<span></span</p>' is erroneous?
Presumably the SGML spec (to which I don't have access). I assume that a
left angled bracket is not allowed inside a tag unless it is surrounded
by quotes.
--
Spartanicus
Henri Sivonen wrote: FYI Schema and/or RELAX NG validation is also available for HTML.
I doubt it.
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/validator/
provides RELAX NG validation for HTML.
How do you validate HTML 4.01 documents?
--
All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Denmark. And
therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "Jeg er dansker!"
"Spartanicu s" wrote: There are different definitions of validation. Afaik in SGML it is
defined as "checking a document against a DTD", nothing more. Given
the topic of this group this is the definition I apply unless the
poster mentions that he is referring to XML validation.
It's not my problem when you jump to conclusions.
FYI Schema and/or RELAX NG validation is also available for HTML.
I doubt it.
One that was announced in this group: http://badame.vse.cz/validator/
there are likely to be others.
<http://badame.vse.cz/validator/validate?uri=ht tp://www.spartanicus .utvinternet.ie/no-xhtml.htm>
seems to complain about a missing system identifier, which is perfectly
legal in HTML...
So now I have to ask why you'd want to disallow "<p
title=""style=" "></p>" in HTML in the first place, given that it's valid
and a brief test doesn't demonstrate it causing a problem.
Omitting whitespace between attribute specifications is almost always
a typo, not a deliberate decision. I'd like to spot typos. So which specification says that '<p ltr<span></span</p>' is erroneous?
Presumably the SGML spec (to which I don't have access).
So public availability of all relevant specifications is obviously another
advantage of XHTML over HTML.
--
All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Denmark. And
therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "Jeg er dansker!"
Henri Sivonen wrote: What kind of difference is there, according to your definitions, between
an HTML parser and a tag soup parser?
'<p ltr<span></span</p>' and '<p dir="ltr"><span ></span></p>' are
equivalent for an HTML parser, but probably not for a tag soup parser.
--
All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Denmark. And
therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "Jeg er dansker!"
In article <e6**********@n ews.christoph.s chneegans.de>,
Christoph Schneegans <Ch*******@Schn eegans.de> wrote: Henri Sivonen wrote:
FYI Schema and/or RELAX NG validation is also available for HTML.
I doubt it.
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/validator/
provides RELAX NG validation for HTML.
How do you validate HTML 4.01 documents?
The parser works as in the HTML5 case except:
* An HTML 4.01 doctype is required instead of the HTML5 doctype.
* Extra entities from HTML5 are not allowed.
The XHTML 1.0 Strict and Transitional schemas are used for HTML 4.01
Strict and Transitional, respectively.
--
Henri Sivonen hs******@iki.fi http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
Mozilla Web Author FAQ: http://mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics | |
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