How to get rid of scrolbars around an object?

[Michael Ulrich]

Hi all,

can anybody help with this HTML4 problem, please:

<OBJECT type="image/jpeg" data="Sample.jp g" width=300

height=300>

shows

a) the image Sample.jpg in its original size, irrespective of

values for "width" and "height"

b) horizontal and vertical scrolbars around the image or part

of the image, respectively, depending on the relation of

image size to "width" and "height"

Problem

*******

a) how can I scale the image according to "width" and

"height"?

b) how can I get rid of the scrolbar frame?

Or is this impossilbe with <OBJECT> and will I have to stick

to <IMG>?

My systems: PC Win2000 SP4 IE 6.0 and WinXP Home SP2 IE 6.0

Thanks, Siggi

P.S. Don't sugest <IMG src="Sample.jpg " width="300"

height="300">!

This works fine, but I've read one could do everything with

<OBJECT> one could do with <IMG>

[Spartanicus]

"Michael Ulrich" <sm***********@ yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi all,

can anybody help with this HTML4 problem, please:
Please loose the extra blank lines in future posts, corrected this
once.
<OBJECT type="image/jpeg" data="Sample.jp g" width=300 height=300>
<object> is not empty, it needs a closing tag.
shows

a) the image Sample.jpg in its original size, irrespective of
values for "width" and "height"
Only in IE, IE doesn't really support image embedding via the object
element.
b) horizontal and vertical scrolbars around the image or part
of the image, respectively, depending on the relation of
image size to "width" and "height"
Only in IE, IE doesn't really support image embedding via the object
element.
Or is this impossilbe with <OBJECT> and will I have to stick
to <IMG>?

If you want to support IE, yes.

--
Spartanicus

[Siggi]

"Spartanicu s" <in*****@invali d.invalid> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:tp******** *************** *********@news. spartanicus.utv internet.ie...
[snip]

a) the image Sample.jpg in its original size, irrespective of
values for "width" and "height"

Only in IE, IE doesn't really support image embedding via the object
element.

[snip]

Thanks! With Netscape no problem: no scrolbars, and image sizeable!

Siggi

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Sat, 4 Mar 2006, Siggi wrote:

"Spartanicu s" <in*****@invali d.invalid> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

a) the image Sample.jpg in its original size, irrespective of
values for "width" and "height"

Only in IE, IE doesn't really support image embedding via the
object element.

Thanks! With Netscape no problem: no scrolbars, and image sizeable!

Despite what had seemed to me to be "obvious" theoretical advantages
of <object> over <img>, I concluded some years back that the browser
developers (at that time it was between Netscape 4 and IE-something)
had so royally screwed-up the implementation of <object> as to make it
unusable in practice...

I'm afraid I hadn't re-examined the situation since; however, <object>
provides a fallback, intended for browsers which don't support it, and
that fallback could be an <img>. And the <img> in its turn can
provide a text fallback.

<object ...>
<img ... alt="alternativ e text">
</object>

OK, so that isn't ideal as a way of providing a text fallback, since
one of the motives of <object> was to permit a fully marked-up piece
of textual content as its fallback, whereas here we've had to accept
one of the very limitations for which <img> was supposed to be
phased-out, namely the fact that its textual alternative has to be an
*attribute value*, not a piece of marked-up content. But let's follow
the idea a little way, nevertheless.

Maybe there's a way of coding <object>, with <img> as its fallback, in
such a way that web-compatible browsers behave correctly, while MSIE
renders the <img> instead?

If it's only MSIE that needs to be shielded from the <object>
nowadays, then surely MSIE's "conditiona l comments" can be used, to
hide the object markup from MSIE and leave it seeing only the <img> ?

A web search suggests
http://diveintomark.org/archives/200...ernet_explorer
(but as you see, this was from 2003).

It also suggests
http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-...ortdescription
and the immediately following items, which are rather depressing:

"User agent problems make this technique ineffective at this time."

And, on the other hand, unless one is using some kind of custom
processor for generating the (x)HTML, there's the question whether
this is really worth all the effort, seeing that (even as WCAG2
admits), rather few of the potential benefits of <object> can be
realised in a compatible fashion? If you want zoomable images, most
of the graphical browsers browsers I tried nowadays support <img>
sized via CSS in em units, even if their zooming algorithms don't
produce top quality results.

Just some thoughts, anyway. Further study needed?

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Sat, 4 Mar 2006, Alan J. Flavell wrote:

If it's only MSIE that needs to be shielded from the <object>
nowadays, then surely MSIE's "conditiona l comments" can be used, to
hide the object markup from MSIE and leave it seeing only the <img> ?

OK, I've had a little play around, and here's a couple of sketches
of how it could be done:

http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/tests/obj.html

Whether it's worth the bother is something else, of course. I don't
really have any plans to deploy it myself in this form, I must admit.

But this happily displays the JPEG object (or its marked-up fallback
text) as designed, on Mozilla (and firefox, of course), Opera 8.5,
Lynx, Konqueror, Elinks, to name the browsers which I tried(*).

Only MSIE gets the <img...> instead.

(*) But why not in Amaya? I tried 9.4 Win32. It displayed neither
the JPEG image nor the fallback text. Even though in its structure
view it was quite clear that it was seeing the <object> and parsing
the comments just as it was supposed to.

[Michael Ulrich]

"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@physic s.gla.ac.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:Pi******** *************** ********@ppepc7 0.ph.gla.ac.uk. ..

On Sat, 4 Mar 2006, Alan J. Flavell wrote:

If it's only MSIE that needs to be shielded from the <object>
nowadays, then surely MSIE's "conditiona l comments" can be used, to
hide the object markup from MSIE and leave it seeing only the <img> ?

OK, I've had a little play around, and here's a couple of sketches
of how it could be done:

[snip]

Thank you, Alan, for the examples you worked out!
This is excellent read for a newbie like me. I
also liked your references to Object Paranoia and
About Conditional Comments, tricks I never heared of
before.

Siggi

P.S.:
To be honest, I taught myself some HTML only to get
a private multimedia presentation working on CD.
I did not want to use Powerpoint, but something more
universal, a browser. The presentation is simple, just
a JPEG images and MPEG movies with commenting text.
For the images I used <IMG>, for the movies <EMBED>.
I did not even specify "video/mpeg" or something
like that. This works fine on my WinXP home PC, both
with MSIE and Netscape (Quicktime opens but not MSplayer
to play the movies!?); on a different Win2000 PC the
images were fine, but the movies did not like Firefox
as default browser (remedy: setting IE as default);
on a MAC, the images were fine, but the movies will
not work when called up within my HTML code, however
when loaded into this MAC's MSplayer or Quicktime,
the movies are fine.
So, I thought why not use <OBJECT> to embed both
images and movies; and I started with <OBJECT>ed
images to learn what it is all about this tag.

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Thu, 9 Mar 2006, Michael Ulrich wrote:

"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@physic s.gla.ac.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:Pi******** *************** ********@ppepc7 0.ph.gla.ac.uk. ..
uh-uh, ich kann auch deutsch... macht nix...

On Sat, 4 Mar 2006, Alan J. Flavell wrote:

If it's only MSIE that needs to be shielded from the <object>
nowadays, then surely MSIE's "conditiona l comments" can be used, to
hide the object markup from MSIE and leave it seeing only the <img> ?

OK, I've had a little play around, and here's a couple of sketches
of how it could be done:

[snip]

Thank you, Alan, for the examples you worked out!

Please be clear that this was only a sketch, as a basis for possible
further discussion, and not intended - at least not without careful
consideration - for deployment in a production situation.
also liked your references to Object Paranoia ...
You'll notice that we came up with slightly different syntax to fool
MSIE while satisfying HTML validation. I can't guarantee that either
of them is better...
About Conditional Comments, tricks I never heared of before.
Sometimes, if one stands on one's head and follows the advice of the
Caterpillar in Alice, it's possible to get something useful out of MS
documentation.
To be honest, I taught myself some HTML only to get
a private multimedia presentation working on CD.

On this group, however, the regulars take it for granted that the
topic is WWW, not some private/intranet/CD/DVD requirement. Other
matters than the WWW are technically off-topic - as the name of the
newsgroup indicates - but, in my experience, even those who think
their problem is delimited by some locked-down intranet can learn
useful ideas from the WWW (and thereby defend themselves from the
inevitable legal action for anti-disability behaviour towards
employees and potential employees... - but I digress).

Gruesse

[Michael Ulrich]

"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@physic s.gla.ac.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:Pine.WNT.4 .64.06030920135 90.1732@ZORIN.. .

On Thu, 9 Mar 2006, Michael Ulrich wrote:

"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@physic s.gla.ac.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

news:Pi******** *************** ********@ppepc7 0.ph.gla.ac.uk. ..
uh-uh, ich kann auch deutsch... macht nix...
[snip]
uh-uh, ich kann auch deutsch... macht nix...
toll, der Name klingt ja nicht sehr deutsch. Ich schreibe aber
der Hoeflichkeit der Gruppe gegenueber lieber auf Englisch.
On this group, however, the regulars take it for granted that the
topic is WWW, not some private/intranet/CD/DVD requirement. Other
matters than the WWW are technically off-topic - as the name of the
newsgroup indicates - but, in my experience, even those who think
their problem is delimited by some locked-down intranet can learn
useful ideas from the WWW (and thereby defend themselves from the
inevitable legal action for anti-disability behaviour towards
employees and potential employees... - but I digress).
What's wrong with learning WWWese, HTML to be specific, privately
before putting up my own homepage? This avoids many mistakes
in my writing an efficient code. Is there a newsgroup specializing
in HTML? I found this group when searching for "HTML". Was it a
wrong hit?

Gruesse

Auch viele Gruesse und vielen Dank fuer die bisherige ausfuehrliche
Hilfe,

Siggi