http://slashdot.org/
"The leaner, lighter, faster, and most importantly, BSD Licensed,
Compiler PCC has been imported into OpenBSD's CVS and NetBSD's pkgsrc.
The compiler is based on the original Portable C Compiler by S. C.
Johnson, written in the late 70's. Even though much of the compiler has
been rewritten, some of the basics still remain. It is currently not
bug-free, but it compiles on x86 platform, and work is being done on it
to take on GCC's job."
The PCC was the first C compiler I used and studied, back then, when
Unix and C started appearing here in France. We had a source license,
and browsing there I found the PCC code.
The discussion is here. http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=artic...mode=expanded/
It is interesting to see the level of frustration of the BSD people
with GCC. They just want a compiler that is simple, small, and...
supports all architectures that Open BSD supports.
Will they succeed?
Of course it is easy to have a compiler that supports 3 back ends, say.
But supporting 10?
With a mixture of weird CPUs etc?
In any case PCC should be up to the task. I remember it run in the
Honeywell-Bull computers of that time (beginning of the 80s), so
it should run in many others... Running with those was really a
challenge.
Sep 17 '07
42  3453 
jacob navia wrote, On 18/09/07 23:34:
Flash Gordon wrote:
>jacob navia wrote, On 18/09/07 21:33:
>>Look.
Did you know that /usr/lib/libc.so is not a binary shared library?
NO!
It is an ASCII LINKER SCRIPT for GNU's "ld"...
So? That is not part of gcc and the actual C library is available as a
shared object, check /lib/libc.so.6. That is two reasons why your
argument here is rubbish.
OK. You find normal that the system library uses an ASCII script for a
specific linker.
They also provide the ACTUAL C library if you want to use it. They also
provide a linker you can use. You can also see how the damn thing works
so you can write your linker to use it if you want.
If Microsoft would have done that, nobody could
link under windows without using their linker...
You have to either use the Microsoft linker or write your own compatible
with it or provide your own C library. The ONLY difference with Linux is
that the linker is actually provided free and installed already on most
systems.
>>Ahhh you do not use "ld"?
What has that got to do with whether you are using gcc? ld is a
seperate product which gcc happens to use.
A developer uses the whole chain:
compiler --assembler-->linker-->debugger.
Well, not everyone uses an assembler. However, if we ignore that you are
forgetting how things work there is still the point that gcc is is NOT a
linker nor is it a debugger. So what are you complaining about, just gcc
which is all you initially mentioned, gcc and GNU ld, or the debugger as
well, or what?
>>Then you are doomed stupid!
Most of the headers and system headers under linux are full of
__attribute __ etc etc etc!
I have ported lcc-win to linux and I can tell you that I had to write
my own headers,
So? When gcc is built it goes through a lot of hoops to create
suitable headers based on whatever the system provides.
Yes. They are no better than Microsoft or IBM. Just the same.
I think you will find that the headers for all C libraries use
implementation specific tricks. For a start, offsetof cannot be
implemented *without* using implementation specific tricks. So EVERY
provider of implementations including *you* is guilty. So what on earth
are you complaining about?
>>exactly like under windows
Yes
So why raise it as a problem with gcc?
>So why complain it is a gcc problem?
I do not complain. I say that they have the monopoly. I do not complain
about Microsoft. I just say that they have a windows monopoly.
You are wrong. See all the stuff you have just read including the posts
you have replied to pointing out there are complete distributions built
*without* gcc.
>>with the BIG difference that
with Microsoft it is still possible to use the windows SDK headers.
What you mean is you support the extensions MS use in their headers
but you don't support the extensions used in the headers shipped with
glibc.
I only support stdcall. No other MS extension is supported unless it is
generally useful like dllexport/import.
>glibc is another seperate product by the way, and not part of gcc.
Yes, sure.
So why raise things about glibc as complaints about gcc?
>>Under linux if you do not support __attribute__ you are doomed.
By the same argument under Windows you are doomed if you don't support
__cdecl or whatever it is that MS use in all their headers.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^
>
I do not support __cdecl.
Since I EXPLICITLY cover that I might not have remembered what MS use
why not address the obvious and real point, namely that you DO support
whatever extension it is that MS use.
--
Flash Gordon
Flash Gordon <sp**@flash-gordon.me.ukwri tes:
Personally I've hit very few bugs in gcc. They do exist but I don't hit
them often enough to worry about.
I've been hit by about the same number of bugs in gcc than in other
compilers we use. Very few. I've been far more often explained to someone
that, no it wasn't a bug in the compiler, it is a bug in the program.
Since they have the monopoly under linux, there is nothing anyone can
do about that.
No gcc does not have a monopoly under Linux. There is tcc, although that
is still flagged as experimental on Ubuntu, Tendra and of course Intel's
icc.
There is also
- lcc
- the compiler of SunStudio (which claims C99 compliance -- I've not
checked and don't remember if it comes with a compliant library or use glibc)
- the C compiler of Comeau (which use gcc as back end, and also claims
C99 compliance but use glibc).
- IBM xlC is also available for Linux according to the web pages, I don't
know if they support x86
- Open64
I'm probably missing some. And I'm pretty sure that if pcc does bring
something, somebody will port it to Linux.
But it is true that most people and even compagnies use gcc.
--
Jean-Marc
Rui Maciel <ru********@gma il.comwrites:
Once again, GCC is perfectly irrelevant to this subject. Why you keep on
whining about GCC is beyond me. Moreover, no one ever claimed that GCC was
the best compiler around or even the fastest. The claim that was made was
that the "people building on old machines" claim is perfectly irrelevant,
knowing that any system sold in the past 3 or 4 years is more than capable
of doing a decent build job.
In the case of OpenBSD and NetBSD distributions, they target things which
where already outdated 10 years ago (vaxes were still sold 10 years ago but
I'd have problem to say they were current at that time).
Yours,
--
Jean-Marc
jacob navia <ja***@jacob.re mcomp.frwrites:
Yes, Intel has the resources to throw into something like that. It has
developed a "gcc clone" mode, where it even copies the command line
options of gcc.
That's the think everybody does when there is a big player in a market: be
as compatible -- sometimes even bug compatible -- with it. That's not the
same as having a monopoly.
Yours,
--
Jean-Marc
Richard Heathfield wrote:
Since I killfiled Mr Navia, people have stopped complaining at me for
arguing with him all the time. I am not ungrateful for this. I have
noticed, however, a marked increase in the rate with which *other people*
are arguing with him.
Sniff, sniff....
"CBFalconer " <cb********@yah oo.coma écrit dans le message de news: 46************* **@yahoo.com...
jacob navia wrote:
>>
... snip ...
>>
Each time you make a change in C you have to rebuild. for many
projects, a change can affect a lot of files. Global changes that
need a full recompilation are done not VERY often, but they are
done...
This means that a compiler that slows down the development process
by just 30-60 seconds per build, it is taking between 15-30
minutes per day to each developer...
To me, the requirement for such a long routine compile indicates
mis-organization. Normally you would only be modifying one source
file, and the rebuild should be limited to recompiling that and
relinking. Sometimes the associated .h file may need revision, and
then (rarely) the work can become considerably larger. So in
general the compilation should not be a problem, however the
linking may be.
I suspect the project Jacob is talking about is actually mostly C++.
Changing a class header file or a template causes a lot of recompilation,
and g++ is notoriously slow.
--
Chqrlie.
Charlie Gordon wrote:
"CBFalconer " <cb********@yah oo.coma écrit dans le message de news:
46************* **@yahoo.com...
>jacob navia wrote:
... snip ...
>>Each time you make a change in C you have to rebuild. for many
projects, a change can affect a lot of files. Global changes that
need a full recompilation are done not VERY often, but they are
done...
This means that a compiler that slows down the development process
by just 30-60 seconds per build, it is taking between 15-30
minutes per day to each developer...
To me, the requirement for such a long routine compile indicates
mis-organization. Normally you would only be modifying one source
file, and the rebuild should be limited to recompiling that and
relinking. Sometimes the associated .h file may need revision, and
then (rarely) the work can become considerably larger. So in
general the compilation should not be a problem, however the
linking may be.
I suspect the project Jacob is talking about is actually mostly C++.
Yes, as I said the company uses C++
Changing a class header file or a template causes a lot of recompilation,
and g++ is notoriously slow.
The linker is VERY slow, and that hits you even when doing
a trivial change.
On Sep 19, 6:54 am, jacob navia <ja...@jacob.re mcomp.frwrote:
Charlie Gordon wrote:
"CBFalconer " <cbfalco...@yah oo.coma écrit dans le message de news:
46F04BF7.212AE. ..@yahoo.com...
jacob navia wrote:
... snip ...
Each time you make a change in C you have to rebuild. for many
projects, a change can affect a lot of files. Global changes that
need a full recompilation are done not VERY often, but they are
done...
>This means that a compiler that slows down the development process
by just 30-60 seconds per build, it is taking between 15-30
minutes per day to each developer...
To me, the requirement for such a long routine compile indicates
mis-organization. Normally you would only be modifying one source
file, and the rebuild should be limited to recompiling that and
relinking. Sometimes the associated .h file may need revision, and
then (rarely) the work can become considerably larger. So in
general the compilation should not be a problem, however the
linking may be.
I suspect the project Jacob is talking about is actually mostly C++.
Yes, as I said the company uses C++
Changing a class header file or a template causes a lot of recompilation,
and g++ is notoriously slow.
The linker is VERY slow, and that hits you even when doing
a trivial change.
GCC is totally irrelevant as far as linking is concerned. The speed
of linking for PCC or any other compiler will not be any different at
all, since both PCC and GCC are going to perform exactly the same link
step using exactly the same linker. The link step is performed by the
operating system's linker, and so the speed of the link won't change
at all unless a compiler vendor supplies its own linker. Microsoft
does that, but then again, they also wrote the operating system for
their compiler so no great surprise there.
I believe that this has all been explained to you before. I think
that you are deliberately being thick here.
user923005 said:
On Sep 19, 6:54 am, jacob navia <ja...@jacob.re mcomp.frwrote:
<snip>
>The linker is VERY slow, and that hits you even when doing
a trivial change.
GCC is totally irrelevant as far as linking is concerned. [...]
I believe that this has all been explained to you before. I think
that you are deliberately being thick here.
Hanlon's Razor applies.
--
Richard Heathfield <http://www.cpax.org.uk >
Email: -www. +rjh@
Google users: <http://www.cpax.org.uk/prg/writings/googly.php>
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
A N Other <sp******@inval id.comwrites:
On 18 Sep 2007 at 22:32, Rui Maciel wrote:
>jacob navia wrote:
>>Yeah, if it compiles C it is of no much use, I know.
But maybe it *could* be that *some* people *like* C you see?
Sarcasm aside, no one has ever stated that no one liked C. As this very
thread is taking place in a newsgroup dedicated to the C programming
language, that insinuation is rather amusing. Were you trying to fan the
flames?
Gee, do you reckon? Jacob's whole modus operandi in this group is to be
completely unreasonable, get people really riled up, and then when they
react he plays the victim - "everyone's picking on me!"
That is not what I have seen.
>
Look at this thread. It serves absolutely no purpose except for Jacob to
spread a load of FUD about gcc.
Jacob obviously thinks the world owes him a living because he took
someone else's compiler, knocked up a pretty GUI IDE to go with it, and
repackaged it as a commercial product. It's clear from his postings to
this group over several years that he doesn't have the first beginnings
of a clue about C - he's not just a social pariah, he's technically
inept to go with it.
Hmm. I see a certain pattern emerging in your style.
>
This group would be a better place if Jacob would stop posting to it and
leave us all in peace.
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