I want to produce a piece of software for embedded systems, generally
telecoms based, mostly running on ARM processors, but I can't guarantee
that, of course.
My software should work along with other software which will generally
be written in C or C++ (occasionally in ADA or even assembler).
I suppose that there are C compilers for marginally more processors
than C++, but, realistically, I am not sure that it makes a major
difference.
I suppose that C produces slightly smaller and faster code, but wonder
if it makes a major difference.
I like C++ exception handling (but know 6that it adds an overhead). I
have clearly defined interfaces and interfacing software would gain
nothing really by instantiating any classes, if I used C++
I want to genericize functionality which the host software ought to
provide, so that I can use their memory allocation routines, timers,
debug tracing, etc, etc - probably just by offering some #defines,
which they can change in a single header file, as necessary - but any
advice is welcome.
I think that I am leaning towards C, but am open to input ...
Thanks in advance for any help.
Jan 3 '07
42  2370 
Serve Laurijssen wrote:
"bjeremy" <bj*****@sbcglo bal.netwrote in message
news:11******** ************@42 g2000cwt.google groups.com...
As for performance in C compared with C++, what I mainly seen are the
capacity issues deal more with the design of the system. And C++
provides less rope to hang yourself with than C.
In your opinion of course. In MY opinion C++ provides all the rope you can
hang yourself with as in C plus a whole lot extra. But you shouldnt worry
about that at all if you have competent programmers. C and C++ are both
great languages that get the job done from the lowest level to the highest.
If I had the choice of language for a next project I would choose what I
like best and not ask advice from biased newsgroup people
This is probably not the case for the OP... but as to the above comment
the relevent term here is "competent programmers". A lot of shops do a
significant amount of outsourcing which has a number of problems. One
of them is *NOT* that there are no competent contractors in India,
Vietname, China, or other countries, the problem is that most companies
will not pay for them. I've seen them again and again try and get the
contractors for the lowest pay they can. This does not draw top talent.
(i.e. While Infosys has a lot of IIT grads, I have only worked with
one, of course he was very capable.)
This also creates an attrition effect. As more and more contractors who
work on your project become competent, they will leave for a more
lucrative offer. This all but guarantees that you will have a fresh
stream of "new hires" working on your system every 3 to 6 months.
I have also noticed a significant portion of the development cycle lost
due to communications between Designers on two sides of the globe
communicating mainly through email. Since we are usually 11 or more
hours appart it usually takes days to resolve a problem.
In an environment such as this (And I understand this does not apply to
all shops), I would have to say IMO ***maintainabil ity of the existing
software is paramount to all else***. Easily understandable code makes
for less ramp up time, and it seems fewer software bugs introduced
during bug fixes and and/or redesign of existing systems, and it also
creates a more autonomous working evironment where communication, while
still necessary, is limited and less likely to cause delays.
Al Balmer wrote:
>>
bjeremy wrote:
no matter how good your intentions are, using C is a maintainence
nightmare. Not to mention extensibility and code reuse will suffer
dramaticall y depending on the size of your project.
I have a different opinion. If you have the stated problems with C,
they are due more to your programmers than the language. C can be
written to be easily maintainable, extensible, and reusable. In fact,
I've seen many cases where the initial partitioning of the problem and
resulting choice of classes made C++ code much more of a problem in
maintenance, extensibility, and reuse.
I think, if you are not using OO design, C++ is generaly equal to C.
But in addition, for C++ you can use classes as ATD (abstract data
types) created by composition (without inheritance, design patterns and
so on). In other words, you can use classes as impoved C modules and
types. You can also use C++ overloading for functions.
C can be more compatible than C++ for cross-platforms works due to more
limited C features and more simple rules, that can be easy understanded
by programmer without confusions. (The most simple rules is ASM (mov
ax,bx), but hundreads of lines of asm is absolutely unreadable).
Serve Laurijssen wrote:
"bjeremy" <bj*****@sbcglo bal.netwrote in message
news:11******** ************@42 g2000cwt.google groups.com...
As for performance in C compared with C++, what I mainly seen are the
capacity issues deal more with the design of the system. And C++
provides less rope to hang yourself with than C.
In your opinion of course. In MY opinion C++ provides all the rope you can
hang yourself with as in C plus a whole lot extra. But you shouldnt worry
about that at all if you have competent programmers. C and C++ are both
great languages that get the job done from the lowest level to the highest.
If I had the choice of language for a next project I would choose what I
like best and not ask advice from biased newsgroup people
A valid point, but I am happy with both. I will admit that most of my
professional work (telecomms) is C, and most of my hobby programming is
C++ (windows programs with GUIS0, so I have some - but not too much -
experience of C++ in embedded systems. That's why I asked. I was
interested in what others have thought.
To be honest, I am not too hung up on programming language. When
recruiting, I always consider telecoms experience as the prime
importance. FRO C projects, I don't care about language experience ;
for C++, I prefer some C++, or other OO.
A few years ago I worked for a company which was fixated on ADA. They
recruited a whole team to do a protocol stack. None of us had any ADA
experience, but we turned out a good product.
Baron Samedi wrote:
>
.... snip ...
>
A few years ago I worked for a company which was fixated on ADA.
They recruited a whole team to do a protocol stack. None of us
had any ADA experience, but we turned out a good product.
Which says something about the reliability of Ada.
--
Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home .att.net>
In article <11************ **********@h40g 2000cwb.googleg roups.com>,
Baron Samedi <Pa************ @gmail.comwrite s
>I want to produce a piece of software for embedded systems, generally
telecoms based, mostly running on ARM processors, but I can't guarantee
that, of course.
Then try comp.arch.embed ded they understand embedded systems and
hardware.
>
My software should work along with other software which will generally
be written in C or C++ (occasionally in ADA or even assembler).
I suppose that there are C compilers for marginally more processors
than C++, but, realistically, I am not sure that it makes a major
difference.
There are a LOT more C than C++ compilers. Especially for the smaller
micros. Also I think you will find it is easier to interface the other
languages to C than C++
>I suppose that C produces slightly smaller and faster code, but wonder
if it makes a major difference.
Depends on your compiler(s) and target platform. It might make a major
difference but then again it may not.
>I like C++ exception handling (but know 6that it adds an overhead). I
have clearly defined interfaces and interfacing software would gain
nothing really by instantiating any classes, if I used C++
These may not be supported by all C++ compilers fro embedded targets.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys. org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
In article <45************ ***@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer
<cb********@yah oo.comwrites
>Serve Laurijssen wrote:
>"bjeremy" <bj*****@sbcglo bal.netwrote in message
>>As for performance in C compared with C++, what I mainly seen
are the capacity issues deal more with the design of the system.
And C++ provides less rope to hang yourself with than C.
In your opinion of course. In MY opinion C++ provides all the rope
you can hang yourself with as in C plus a whole lot extra. But you
shouldnt worry about that at all if you have competent programmers.
C and C++ are both great languages that get the job done from the
lowest level to the highest. If I had the choice of language for a
next project I would choose what I like best and not ask advice
from biased newsgroup people
If you want a widely available language and maximum safety use Ada.
Compared to C ADA is not widely available or supported.
As for Maximum safety... you can make a mess in Ada just as much as any
other language. For maximum safety you could use SPARK but that is
even less available.
BTW which language did they choose for the US Joint Strike Fighter?
(Do you know why? )
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys. org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
In article <45************ ***@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer
<cb********@yah oo.comwrites
>Baron Samedi wrote:
>>
... snip ...
>>
A few years ago I worked for a company which was fixated on ADA.
They recruited a whole team to do a protocol stack. None of us
had any ADA experience, but we turned out a good product.
Which says something about the reliability of Ada.
It doesn't say anything about Ada... They might have been just as
successful in Mod2, Pascal, Chill, Fortran etc
It does say something about the team though.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys. org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
We made very good experience with C++ on embedded systems even for time
critical tasks.
For our system we restricted the C++ features that are allowed. Those
are:
- no dynamic memory allocation (no new, delete, malloc, free etc.)
- no exceptions
- no run time type information
- no virtual functions
- no templates
Some of the restrictions were due to the first platform we used
(compiler did not support templates) others were choosen to increase
robustness and speed.
The resulting software is very modular and and code is easy to read. We
almost never had any of those typical C memory access errors...
The great benefits of C++ over C in this projects are:
- excessive usage of references instead of pointers makes the code very
robust
- excessive usage of const classifiers avoids mis-usage of objects
- class access rights + lightweight inline methods (set, get) assure
protection of internal module variables. Old projects were full of
those evil extern declarations...
- constructors assure proper initialized modules
- all of those features above come with virtual no runtime overhead.
One of the disadvantage of C++ is a slightly greater memory footprint
because C++ environment initialization is more sophisticated.. .
I really like the beauty of our lightwight wrappers for hardware
interfaces. Almost no runtime-overhead, intuitive usage, and very
robust against abuse at the same time. Much better than anything that
you can achieve in C.
Our experience with C++ on embedded systems were so good that we use C
only for those platform that does not provide a proper C++ compiler.
Henryk
We made very good experience with C++ on embedded systems even for time
critical tasks.
For our system we restricted the C++ features that are allowed. Those
are:
- no dynamic memory allocation (no new, delete, malloc, free etc.)
- no exceptions
- no run time type information
- no virtual functions
- no templates
Some of the restrictions were due to the first platform we used
(compiler did not support templates) others were choosen to increase
robustness and speed.
The resulting software is very modular and and code is easy to read. We
almost never had any of those typical C memory access errors...
The great benefits of C++ over C in this projects are:
- excessive usage of references instead of pointers makes the code very
robust
- excessive usage of const classifiers avoids mis-usage of objects
- class access rights + lightweight inline methods (set, get) assure
protection of internal module variables. Old projects were full of
those evil extern declarations...
- constructors assure proper initialized modules
- all of those features above come with virtual no runtime overhead.
One of the disadvantage of C++ is a slightly greater memory footprint
because C++ environment initialization is more sophisticated.. .
I really like the beauty of our lightwight wrappers for hardware
interfaces. Almost no runtime-overhead, intuitive usage, and very
robust against abuse at the same time. Much better than anything that
you can achieve in C.
Our experience with C++ on embedded systems were so good that we use C
only for those platform that does not provide a proper C++ compiler.
Henryk
We made very good experience with C++ on embedded systems even for time
critical tasks.
For our system we restricted the C++ features that are allowed. Those
are:
- no dynamic memory allocation (no new, delete, malloc, free etc.)
- no exceptions
- no run time type information
- no virtual functions
- no templates
Some of the restrictions were due to the first platform we used
(compiler did not support templates) others were choosen to increase
robustness and speed.
The resulting software is very modular and and code is easy to read. We
almost never had any of those typical C memory access errors...
The great benefits of C++ over C in this projects are:
- excessive usage of references instead of pointers makes the code very
robust
- excessive usage of const classifiers avoids mis-usage of objects
- class access rights + lightweight inline methods (set, get) assure
protection of internal module variables. Old projects were full of
those evil extern declarations...
- constructors assure proper initialized modules
- all of those features above come with virtual no runtime overhead.
One of the disadvantage of C++ is a slightly greater memory footprint
because C++ environment initialization is more sophisticated.. .
I really like the beauty of our lightwight wrappers for hardware
interfaces. Almost no runtime-overhead, intuitive usage, and very
robust against abuse at the same time. Much better than anything that
you can achieve in C.
Our experience with C++ on embedded systems were so good that we use C
only for those platform that does not provide a proper C++ compiler.
Henryk
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