Most annoying aspects of C++

[Michael Hopkins]

Hi all

We all know that C++ is a cleverly conceived multi-paradigm language that
sacrifices very little in efficiency for what it delivers in terms of
type-safety, encapsulation and generic behaviour.

What I want to ask here is - what are the features that people most dislike
about it i.e. that:

- make it more difficult than necessary to implement designs

- introduce subtle bugs

- force the developer to think in counter-intuitive ways

- make managing a software project more troublesome

- make using or producing libraries inconvenient

There may be others. I am not talking about subjective things like syntax,
more concerned with tangible design & software engineering issues.

Michael
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_/ _/ _/_/_/ Hopkins Research Ltd
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_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ http://www.hopkins-research.com/
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/ _/ _/ _/ 'touch the future'

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[al pacino]

Michael Hopkins wrote:

Hi all

We all know that C++ is a cleverly conceived multi-paradigm language that
sacrifices very little in efficiency for what it delivers in terms of
type-safety, encapsulation and generic behaviour.

What I want to ask here is - what are the features that people most dislike
about it i.e. that:

- make it more difficult than necessary to implement designs

- introduce subtle bugs

- force the developer to think in counter-intuitive ways

- make managing a software project more troublesome

- make using or producing libraries inconvenient

There may be others. I am not talking about subjective things like syntax,
more concerned with tangible design & software engineering issues.

Michael
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

_/ _/ _/_/_/ Hopkins Research Ltd
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ http://www.hopkins-research.com/
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/ _/ _/ _/ 'touch the future'

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one could be the 'long time' it takes to learn/master .

[Vaclav Haisman]

Michael Hopkins wrote, On 15.6.2006 8:43:

Hi all

We all know that C++ is a cleverly conceived multi-paradigm language that
sacrifices very little in efficiency for what it delivers in terms of
type-safety, encapsulation and generic behaviour.

What I want to ask here is - what are the features that people most dislike
about it i.e. that:

- make it more difficult than necessary to implement designs

- introduce subtle bugs

- force the developer to think in counter-intuitive ways

- make managing a software project more troublesome I don't think that either of these is true.

- make using or producing libraries inconvenient This one is arguable.

There may be others. I am not talking about subjective things like syntax,
more concerned with tangible design & software engineering issues.

Michael

--
VH

[Daniel T.]

In article <C0************ *************** *@hopkins-research.com>,
Michael Hopkins <mi************ *@hopkins-research.com> wrote:

Hi all

We all know that C++ is a cleverly conceived multi-paradigm language that
sacrifices very little in efficiency for what it delivers in terms of
type-safety, encapsulation and generic behaviour.

What I want to ask here is - what are the features that people most dislike
about it i.e. that:

- make it more difficult than necessary to implement designs

- introduce subtle bugs

- force the developer to think in counter-intuitive ways

- make managing a software project more troublesome

- make using or producing libraries inconvenient

There may be others. I am not talking about subjective things like syntax,
more concerned with tangible design & software engineering issues.

This has the makings of a flame war. You are asking the people who love
the language most to dis it... :-)

The "feature" I most dislike is wild pointers. The fact that they can be
created, and the fact that there is no language facility to track them
down.

[nutty]

Daniel T. schrieb:

In article <C0************ *************** *@hopkins-research.com>,
Michael Hopkins <mi************ *@hopkins-research.com> wrote:

Hi all

We all know that C++ is a cleverly conceived multi-paradigm language that
sacrifices very little in efficiency for what it delivers in terms of
type-safety, encapsulation and generic behaviour.

What I want to ask here is - what are the features that people most dislike
about it i.e. that:

- make it more difficult than necessary to implement designs

- introduce subtle bugs

- force the developer to think in counter-intuitive ways

- make managing a software project more troublesome

- make using or producing libraries inconvenient

There may be others. I am not talking about subjective things like syntax,
more concerned with tangible design & software engineering issues.
This has the makings of a flame war. You are asking the people who love
the language most to dis it... :-)

I think this *is* the right place for this question. The question is
not to say the language is bad. But how it could made better.

- make it more difficult than necessary to implement designs

Especially the 'than necessary' part. You need to know the language
well to know what is actually 'necessary'.

The "feature" I most dislike is wild pointers. The fact that they can be
created, and the fact that there is no language facility to track them
down.

What is a wild pointer? A raw pointer? Then I say: It is necessary.

It is not the language, but the programmer who uses the pointer. You
are free to define any kind of intelligent pointer, even a garbage
collection. And in fact other have done so for you already.

Actually I just realized that it is indeed difficult to answer this
question.
I have written some points, but then realized, that I proposed new
features instead of talking about disliked features. So I removed them
again.

The things I dislike are indeed syntax issues. But they are explicitly
excluded here.

So, which feature could be disliked? If I don't like a feature, who
forces me to use it???

Ingo

[Michael Hopkins]

On 15/6/06 12:24, in article
da************* *************** @n...art hlink.net, "Daniel T."
<da******@earth link.net> wrote:

This has the makings of a flame war. You are asking the people who love
the language most to dis it... :-)

The "feature" I most dislike is wild pointers. The fact that they can be
created, and the fact that there is no language facility to track them
down.

Not looking for flame war here but genuine & open debate from people who
already use it.

My current list, for what it's worth:

- slicing & schizophrenic polymorphism

- what compiler does 'behind the scenes' with no documentation in code

- the need for virtual destructors

- error messages from template (i.e. STL) code
These are more subjective but, I believe, valid and agreed with by others:

- arcane (sometimes dangerous) semantics in some cases that seem simple

- when static-typing makes you 'jump thru hoops' to do something simple

- the need to keep so many concepts & types in mind all at once creates
unecessary complexity relative to the problem & reduces productivity
M
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_/ _/ _/_/_/ Hopkins Research Ltd
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ http://www.hopkins-research.com/
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/ _/ _/ _/ 'touch the future'

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[Phlip]

Michael Hopkins wrote:

We all know that C++ is a cleverly conceived multi-paradigm language that
sacrifices very little in efficiency for what it delivers in terms of
type-safety, encapsulation and generic behaviour.

What I want to ask here is - what are the features that people most
dislike
about it i.e. that:

- make it more difficult than necessary to implement designs

Read my seminal paper on the topic, called "Where in memory do you want to
accidentally jump today?"

http://groups.google.com/group/comp....3877533bd360d2
aka
http://tinyurl.com/k2kmy

The replies are also valid, but none of them defeat the main points. C++
sacrifices much programmer efficiency in exchange for a thin margin of CPU
efficiency...

--
Phlip
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

[Victor Bazarov]

Michael Hopkins wrote:

On 15/6/06 12:24, in article
da************* *************** @n...art hlink.net, "Daniel T."
<da******@earth link.net> wrote:

This has the makings of a flame war. You are asking the people who
love the language most to dis it... :-)

The "feature" I most dislike is wild pointers. The fact that they
can be created, and the fact that there is no language facility to
track them down.
Not looking for flame war here but genuine & open debate from people
who already use it.

Bullshit!
My current list, for what it's worth:
Doesn't seem to be worth much...
- slicing & schizophrenic polymorphism
What's that mean? I am vaguely familiar with the term schizophrenia,
but how does it apply to polymorphism?
- what compiler does 'behind the scenes' with no documentation in code
Why do you care? And if you do care, couldn't you ask your compiler
vendor for that? You know, every compiler does different things there.
- the need for virtual destructors
Huh? What's the alternative? Virtual d-tors for every class? Or some
other RTTI mechanism to slow everything down?
- error messages from template (i.e. STL) code
What error messages? Are you confusing the language design with the
quality of the iplementation you're using?
These are more subjective but, I believe, valid and agreed with by
others:

- arcane (sometimes dangerous) semantics in some cases that seem
simple
Example, kindly please.
- when static-typing makes you 'jump thru hoops' to do something
simple
To do what, for instance?
- the need to keep so many concepts & types in mind all at once
creates unecessary complexity relative to the problem & reduces
productivity

As opposed to what?

Here is what I think of your current list
[
These are the most annoying aspects of cars, for what it's worth:
- need gas to run
- not enough room to carry all my belongings
- uncomfortable seats
- short warranty leading to expensive repairs later
- going too fast often leads to a speeding ticket
- not enough protection against crashes
- the need to keep many things in mind at once when driving
]

V
--
Please remove capital 'A's when replying by e-mail
I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask

[Alf P. Steinbach]

* Phlip:

Michael Hopkins wrote:

We all know that C++ is a cleverly conceived multi-paradigm language that
sacrifices very little in efficiency for what it delivers in terms of
type-safety, encapsulation and generic behaviour.

What I want to ask here is - what are the features that people most
dislike
about it i.e. that:

- make it more difficult than necessary to implement designs

Read my seminal paper on the topic, called "Where in memory do you want to
accidentally jump today?"

http://groups.google.com/group/comp....3877533bd360d2
aka
http://tinyurl.com/k2kmy

You write about C++, "This newsgroup gets a dozen questions per month
asking how to do something that a scripting language can do".

Is it really true that they ask C++ questions in cljp?

--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is it such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

[Christopher Benson-Manica]

Michael Hopkins <mi************ *@hopkins-research.com> wrote:

What I want to ask here is - what are the features that people most dislike
about it i.e. that:

The fact that exception specifications exist, but are essentially
worthless for the purposes that a reasonable programmer might attempt
to use them, is not a particularly endearing quality of the language.

--
Christopher Benson-Manica | I *should* know what I'm talking about - if I
ataru(at)cybers pace.org | don't, I need to know. Flames welcome.