Concrete Mathematics

[arnuld]

I want to learn algorithms & data-structures. search told me nothing
beats KNUTH, the DON. since my Maths is weak, i purchased prerequisite
to his AoCP i.e. "Concrete Mathematics" . it's very complicated &
confusing for the time being i am unable to make any sense out of it
but i am persisting because i think sooner or later it will make sense
( i am reading this book from last 5-6 days). if i leave this book then
i will not be able to to Knuth's AoCP, RIGHT?

what do you think? is there any prerequisite to "Concrete Mathematics"
like say "Higher Algebra by Hall & Knight" .i am just a normal B.Sc.
graduate :-(

i am thinking of doing CORMEN/SEDGWICK but If i do not do KNUTH, then i
will never become an *excellent* programmer, am i right?

i will really appreciate if you can provide some help or views/comments

-- arnuld

[mlimber]

arnuld wrote:

I want to learn algorithms & data-structures. search told me nothing
beats KNUTH, the DON. since my Maths is weak, i purchased prerequisite
to his AoCP i.e. "Concrete Mathematics" . it's very complicated &
confusing for the time being i am unable to make any sense out of it
but i am persisting because i think sooner or later it will make sense
( i am reading this book from last 5-6 days). if i leave this book then
i will not be able to to Knuth's AoCP, RIGHT?

what do you think? is there any prerequisite to "Concrete Mathematics"
like say "Higher Algebra by Hall & Knight" .i am just a normal B.Sc.
graduate :-(

i am thinking of doing CORMEN/SEDGWICK but If i do not do KNUTH, then i
will never become an *excellent* programmer, am i right?

i will really appreciate if you can provide some help or views/comments

-- arnuld

This is not a C++ question. You should ask on comp.programmin g or some
other newsgroup. See this FAQ for what is on-topic here:

http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lit...t.html#faq-5.9

Cheers! --M

[osmium]

"arnuld" wrote:

i am thinking of doing CORMEN/SEDGWICK but If i do not do KNUTH, then i
will never become an *excellent* programmer, am i right?

No, you are not right.

Excellent programmers are born, not made. And for that matter,there are
many very good programmers who have never heard of Knuth. Or Cormen either.
I think Knuth is good for a lot of things, but I also think he spends way
too much time on corner cases and *proving* things. There are only so many
neurons and I think there are much better ways to allocate them.

I think a serious programmer should have Knuth on his shelves, but not try
to comprehend every little nuance of everything he says. That's what
indexes are for.

[arnuld]

mlimber wrote:

This is not a C++ question.
i agree
You should ask on comp.programmin g or some
other newsgroup. See this FAQ for what is on-topic here:

http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lit...t.html#faq-5.9

i tried but did not find any newsgroup specific to algorithms, since i
knew that quite talented folks exist at comp.lang.c++, so i thought i
should post it here.
anyway, i will not post such question again on comp.lang.c++

[Noah Roberts]

arnuld wrote:

i tried but did not find any newsgroup specific to algorithms, since i
knew that quite talented folks exist at comp.lang.c++, so i thought i
should post it here.

comp.programmin g

Knuth is for when you want a Master's or Docterate in CS. I own a set,
I've read some of it and actually comprehended a little. It's hardly
ever practical; in fact I don't know that I have ever found a practical
use for anything in the Knuth books. Most of the stuff he talks about
is spoken of in simpler terms elsewhere.

To get through the math part you need lots of algebra. That's pretty
much all he uses. You need to know summations and whatever you call
the multiplication equivelant. You'll need logs and powers. That's
about it. Some practice creating formulas for real world problems
would be very helpful.

In TAOCP itself he says it is not necissary to read CH1 to understand
most of the rest of the books. It will help to understand the proofs
though.

Even if you know the math he uses it in very advanced ways. He IS a
mathmetician. Have fun.

[arnuld]

> No, you are not right.

Excellent programmers are born, not made.
I just don't agrre with this. I know at least 2 more guys who will not
agree with you. they are Albert Einstein & Isaac Newton. Newton once
said: "if other people could think as hard as i thought, they would
have gotten similiar results".

"I spent all of my life and i say, *kings* are not born but made,
through suffering and hardness. these women are dangerous, you can
never know them. "

-- father of ALEXANDER

and i am not intelligent but a poor fellow who has 54% marks in his
graduation. It took me 1 year from beginner to programmer. I never
understood Python, people recommend this language to a beginner. i
never understood SCHEME, people also recommend this to a beginner. I
understood some LISP, (read "Practical Common LISP" straight form being
a beginner), then i did "Programmin g Ruby" easily.

I have my classmate who is a B.Sc graduate with me but he doesn't know
what is the "differenti al of Sin x" but presently he is the TSM
(Territory Sales Manager) with Bank of Punjab, earning 28,000 INR per
month, great part is that nobody, inlcuding you, knows him. unlike
Newton, & Einstein, he is just another guy.

my learning curve & experience of life force me to think that Newton &
what father of Alexander said was right but how can i apply this to
learning from Knuth?

And for that matter,there are
many very good programmers who have never heard of Knuth. Or Cormen either.
now that is truly unexpected & strange for me, but my experience says,
it is *true*.
I think Knuth is good for a lot of things, but I also think he spends way
too much time on corner cases and *proving* things.
did not get what you intend to say, technically.
There are only so many neurons and I think there are much better ways to allocate
them.
I am not from an native English-man , so can you explain the meaning of
that.
I think a serious programmer should have Knuth on his shelves, but not try
to comprehend every little nuance of everything he says. That's what indexes are for.

thanks
-- arnuld

[arnuld]

Noah Roberts wrote:

comp.programmin g
ok, got it.

Knuth is for when you want a Master's or Docterate in CS.

ha, ha, ha ;-). never knew this one. on the contrary i thought he
writes for average programmers. I am happy to see someone just broke my
belief.
I own a set, I've read some of it and actually comprehended a little. It's hardly
ever practical; in fact I don't know that I have ever found a practical
use for anything in the Knuth books.
i thought he created TEX and METAFONT only by using his AoCP books. Am
I pretty wrong?

so what exactly is real stuff?, in context of algorithms, & where can i
get that real-suff?
Most of the stuff he talks about is spoken of in simpler terms elsewhere.
in CORMEN or SEDGWICK? or somewhere else
To get through the math part you need lots of algebra. That's pretty
much all he uses. You need to know summations and whatever you call
the multiplication equivelant. You'll need logs and powers. That's
about it. Some practice creating formulas for real world problems
would be very helpful.
ok, i got it, my trouble is algebra.
In TAOCP itself he says it is not necissary to read CH1 to understand
most of the rest of the books. It will help to understand the proofs
though.
I will try this style.
Even if you know the math he uses it in very advanced ways. He IS a
mathmetician. Have fun.

thanks a lot, Noah, my friend.

-- arnuld

[Victor Bazarov]

arnuld wrote:

No, you are not right.

Excellent programmers are born, not made.
I just don't agrre with this. I know at least 2 more guys who will not
agree with you. they are Albert Einstein & Isaac Newton. Newton once
said: "if other people could think as hard as i thought, they would
have gotten similiar results".

Huh? Do you not see the 'if' and 'could' in the Newton's statement?
*If* I *could* run as fast as a cheetah, I'd be the world champion in
sprint.

"I spent all of my life and i say, *kings* are not born but made,
through suffering and hardness. these women are dangerous, you can
never know them. "

-- father of ALEXANDER

[...]

my learning curve & experience of life force me to think that Newton &
what father of Alexander said was right but how can i apply this to
learning from Knuth?
Ability to learn is genetic. And it's not binary (either there or not
there), it's analog (you have as much as you inherited). If you can
learn from Knuth, you'll be able to, after you read it some number of
times. Some people can learn from Knuth on the first reading, some have
to read several times before they grasp the ideas. Also, different folks
learn different things from Knuth. It all depends on two main things:
your desire/intent and your ability. The former you develop, the latter
you mostly inherit.
[..]

I think Knuth is good for a lot of things, but I also think he
spends way
too much time on corner cases and *proving* things.

did not get what you intend to say, technically.

TAOCP is mostly a theoretical book, not an instruction manual.

There are only so many neurons and I think there are much better
ways to allocate them.

I am not from an native English-man , so can you explain the meaning
of that.

Your brain has a limited capacity for learning (just like everybody
else's). Learning is based on memory. Memory is formed in neurons.
With the limited number of neurons in your brain, you have to choose
what to use the for.

V
--
Please remove capital 'A's when replying by e-mail
I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask

[Noah Roberts]

arnuld wrote:

Noah Roberts wrote:

comp.programmin g
ok, got it.

Knuth is for when you want a Master's or Docterate in CS.

ha, ha, ha ;-). never knew this one. on the contrary i thought he
writes for average programmers. I am happy to see someone just broke my
belief.

Definately NOT for /average/ programmers. No, he is for people
interested in the theory behind what they do. There is need for such
people but practical knowledge for the average programmer it is not.

I own a set, I've read some of it and actually comprehended a little. It's hardly
ever practical; in fact I don't know that I have ever found a practical
use for anything in the Knuth books.
i thought he created TEX and METAFONT only by using his AoCP books. Am
I pretty wrong?

The language most often used to describe algorithms in his books
doesn't actually exist as a real programming language. There are
emulators of the machine in question and assemblers that will assemble
the assembler code for his made up machine but it doesn't actually
exist.

Besides, he wrote his books in TEX. Chicken/egg. I dunno.

He could have made TEX using algorithms he designed or proved in his
books and papers. In fact, the algorithms and data structures
discussed in his books are so fundamental to what we do that it would
be odd if he didn't use them, and likely nothing BUT them, in his own
work. His books are nothing if not complete ;)

Actually I take back what I said about practicality if you include his
papers. His paper on the AlphaBeta algorithm, though I didn't read it,
was very important to the world of chess AI programming and I have used
that algorithm and read papers that cited and expanded his to improve
my own engine.

But again, these things are described much simpler in other places.
His books and papers are very detailed and exact and can be very
difficult to digest. If you just want to use the algorithm or data
structure in question then you don't need all that. Knuth is
theoretical, if you want 'practical' you can get your information more
easily elsewhere. This doesn't mean Knuth is not important...it just
means he has a totally different goal in discussing things.
so what exactly is real stuff?, in context of algorithms, & where can i
get that real-suff?

bookpool.com and look up algorithm. Since you are in the C++ newsgroup
I assume that is the language you want to use...try something specific
to that language. Hell, it might even make the discussion topical.

[Noah Roberts]

Victor Bazarov wrote:

Your brain has a limited capacity for learning (just like everybody
else's). Learning is based on memory. Memory is formed in neurons.
With the limited number of neurons in your brain, you have to choose
what to use the for.

Worse, we only use 10% of those nurons as far as science can tell.
Certainly for most things we think of as "thought" and "memory". In
fact, they are only represented by some fraction of the 10%....the rest
of that 10% are feelings, instincts, and body control. So really, our
storage capacity is quite limited unless you find a way to access that
other 90%.