473,700 Members | 2,406 Online
Bytes | Software Development & Data Engineering Community
+ Post

Home Posts Topics Members FAQ

Concrete Mathematics

I want to learn algorithms & data-structures. search told me nothing
beats KNUTH, the DON. since my Maths is weak, i purchased prerequisite
to his AoCP i.e. "Concrete Mathematics" . it's very complicated &
confusing for the time being i am unable to make any sense out of it
but i am persisting because i think sooner or later it will make sense
( i am reading this book from last 5-6 days). if i leave this book then
i will not be able to to Knuth's AoCP, RIGHT?

what do you think? is there any prerequisite to "Concrete Mathematics"
like say "Higher Algebra by Hall & Knight" .i am just a normal B.Sc.
graduate :-(

i am thinking of doing CORMEN/SEDGWICK but If i do not do KNUTH, then i
will never become an *excellent* programmer, am i right?

i will really appreciate if you can provide some help or views/comments

-- arnuld

Jun 14 '06 #1
21 3034
arnuld wrote:
I want to learn algorithms & data-structures. search told me nothing
beats KNUTH, the DON. since my Maths is weak, i purchased prerequisite
to his AoCP i.e. "Concrete Mathematics" . it's very complicated &
confusing for the time being i am unable to make any sense out of it
but i am persisting because i think sooner or later it will make sense
( i am reading this book from last 5-6 days). if i leave this book then
i will not be able to to Knuth's AoCP, RIGHT?

what do you think? is there any prerequisite to "Concrete Mathematics"
like say "Higher Algebra by Hall & Knight" .i am just a normal B.Sc.
graduate :-(

i am thinking of doing CORMEN/SEDGWICK but If i do not do KNUTH, then i
will never become an *excellent* programmer, am i right?

i will really appreciate if you can provide some help or views/comments

-- arnuld


This is not a C++ question. You should ask on comp.programmin g or some
other newsgroup. See this FAQ for what is on-topic here:

http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lit...t.html#faq-5.9

Cheers! --M

Jun 14 '06 #2
"arnuld" wrote:
i am thinking of doing CORMEN/SEDGWICK but If i do not do KNUTH, then i
will never become an *excellent* programmer, am i right?


No, you are not right.

Excellent programmers are born, not made. And for that matter,there are
many very good programmers who have never heard of Knuth. Or Cormen either.
I think Knuth is good for a lot of things, but I also think he spends way
too much time on corner cases and *proving* things. There are only so many
neurons and I think there are much better ways to allocate them.

I think a serious programmer should have Knuth on his shelves, but not try
to comprehend every little nuance of everything he says. That's what
indexes are for.
Jun 14 '06 #3
mlimber wrote:
This is not a C++ question.
i agree
You should ask on comp.programmin g or some
other newsgroup. See this FAQ for what is on-topic here:

http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lit...t.html#faq-5.9


i tried but did not find any newsgroup specific to algorithms, since i
knew that quite talented folks exist at comp.lang.c++, so i thought i
should post it here.
anyway, i will not post such question again on comp.lang.c++

Jun 14 '06 #4

arnuld wrote:
i tried but did not find any newsgroup specific to algorithms, since i
knew that quite talented folks exist at comp.lang.c++, so i thought i
should post it here.


comp.programmin g

Knuth is for when you want a Master's or Docterate in CS. I own a set,
I've read some of it and actually comprehended a little. It's hardly
ever practical; in fact I don't know that I have ever found a practical
use for anything in the Knuth books. Most of the stuff he talks about
is spoken of in simpler terms elsewhere.

To get through the math part you need lots of algebra. That's pretty
much all he uses. You need to know summations and whatever you call
the multiplication equivelant. You'll need logs and powers. That's
about it. Some practice creating formulas for real world problems
would be very helpful.

In TAOCP itself he says it is not necissary to read CH1 to understand
most of the rest of the books. It will help to understand the proofs
though.

Even if you know the math he uses it in very advanced ways. He IS a
mathmetician. Have fun.

Jun 14 '06 #5
> No, you are not right.

Excellent programmers are born, not made.
I just don't agrre with this. I know at least 2 more guys who will not
agree with you. they are Albert Einstein & Isaac Newton. Newton once
said: "if other people could think as hard as i thought, they would
have gotten similiar results".

"I spent all of my life and i say, *kings* are not born but made,
through suffering and hardness. these women are dangerous, you can
never know them. "

-- father of ALEXANDER

and i am not intelligent but a poor fellow who has 54% marks in his
graduation. It took me 1 year from beginner to programmer. I never
understood Python, people recommend this language to a beginner. i
never understood SCHEME, people also recommend this to a beginner. I
understood some LISP, (read "Practical Common LISP" straight form being
a beginner), then i did "Programmin g Ruby" easily.

I have my classmate who is a B.Sc graduate with me but he doesn't know
what is the "differenti al of Sin x" but presently he is the TSM
(Territory Sales Manager) with Bank of Punjab, earning 28,000 INR per
month, great part is that nobody, inlcuding you, knows him. unlike
Newton, & Einstein, he is just another guy.

my learning curve & experience of life force me to think that Newton &
what father of Alexander said was right but how can i apply this to
learning from Knuth?

And for that matter,there are
many very good programmers who have never heard of Knuth. Or Cormen either.
now that is truly unexpected & strange for me, but my experience says,
it is *true*.
I think Knuth is good for a lot of things, but I also think he spends way
too much time on corner cases and *proving* things.
did not get what you intend to say, technically.
There are only so many neurons and I think there are much better ways to allocate
them.
I am not from an native English-man , so can you explain the meaning of
that.
I think a serious programmer should have Knuth on his shelves, but not try
to comprehend every little nuance of everything he says. That's what indexes are for.


thanks
-- arnuld

Jun 14 '06 #6
Noah Roberts wrote:
comp.programmin g
ok, got it.

Knuth is for when you want a Master's or Docterate in CS.

ha, ha, ha ;-). never knew this one. on the contrary i thought he
writes for average programmers. I am happy to see someone just broke my
belief.
I own a set, I've read some of it and actually comprehended a little. It's hardly
ever practical; in fact I don't know that I have ever found a practical
use for anything in the Knuth books.
i thought he created TEX and METAFONT only by using his AoCP books. Am
I pretty wrong?

so what exactly is real stuff?, in context of algorithms, & where can i
get that real-suff?
Most of the stuff he talks about is spoken of in simpler terms elsewhere.
in CORMEN or SEDGWICK? or somewhere else
To get through the math part you need lots of algebra. That's pretty
much all he uses. You need to know summations and whatever you call
the multiplication equivelant. You'll need logs and powers. That's
about it. Some practice creating formulas for real world problems
would be very helpful.
ok, i got it, my trouble is algebra.
In TAOCP itself he says it is not necissary to read CH1 to understand
most of the rest of the books. It will help to understand the proofs
though.
I will try this style.
Even if you know the math he uses it in very advanced ways. He IS a
mathmetician. Have fun.


thanks a lot, Noah, my friend.

-- arnuld

Jun 14 '06 #7
arnuld wrote:
No, you are not right.

Excellent programmers are born, not made.
I just don't agrre with this. I know at least 2 more guys who will not
agree with you. they are Albert Einstein & Isaac Newton. Newton once
said: "if other people could think as hard as i thought, they would
have gotten similiar results".


Huh? Do you not see the 'if' and 'could' in the Newton's statement?
*If* I *could* run as fast as a cheetah, I'd be the world champion in
sprint.

"I spent all of my life and i say, *kings* are not born but made,
through suffering and hardness. these women are dangerous, you can
never know them. "

-- father of ALEXANDER

[...]

my learning curve & experience of life force me to think that Newton &
what father of Alexander said was right but how can i apply this to
learning from Knuth?
Ability to learn is genetic. And it's not binary (either there or not
there), it's analog (you have as much as you inherited). If you can
learn from Knuth, you'll be able to, after you read it some number of
times. Some people can learn from Knuth on the first reading, some have
to read several times before they grasp the ideas. Also, different folks
learn different things from Knuth. It all depends on two main things:
your desire/intent and your ability. The former you develop, the latter
you mostly inherit.
[..]
I think Knuth is good for a lot of things, but I also think he
spends way
too much time on corner cases and *proving* things.


did not get what you intend to say, technically.


TAOCP is mostly a theoretical book, not an instruction manual.
There are only so many neurons and I think there are much better
ways to allocate them.


I am not from an native English-man , so can you explain the meaning
of that.


Your brain has a limited capacity for learning (just like everybody
else's). Learning is based on memory. Memory is formed in neurons.
With the limited number of neurons in your brain, you have to choose
what to use the for.

V
--
Please remove capital 'A's when replying by e-mail
I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask
Jun 14 '06 #8

arnuld wrote:
Noah Roberts wrote:
comp.programmin g
ok, got it.

Knuth is for when you want a Master's or Docterate in CS.

ha, ha, ha ;-). never knew this one. on the contrary i thought he
writes for average programmers. I am happy to see someone just broke my
belief.


Definately NOT for /average/ programmers. No, he is for people
interested in the theory behind what they do. There is need for such
people but practical knowledge for the average programmer it is not.
I own a set, I've read some of it and actually comprehended a little. It's hardly
ever practical; in fact I don't know that I have ever found a practical
use for anything in the Knuth books.
i thought he created TEX and METAFONT only by using his AoCP books. Am
I pretty wrong?


The language most often used to describe algorithms in his books
doesn't actually exist as a real programming language. There are
emulators of the machine in question and assemblers that will assemble
the assembler code for his made up machine but it doesn't actually
exist.

Besides, he wrote his books in TEX. Chicken/egg. I dunno.

He could have made TEX using algorithms he designed or proved in his
books and papers. In fact, the algorithms and data structures
discussed in his books are so fundamental to what we do that it would
be odd if he didn't use them, and likely nothing BUT them, in his own
work. His books are nothing if not complete ;)

Actually I take back what I said about practicality if you include his
papers. His paper on the AlphaBeta algorithm, though I didn't read it,
was very important to the world of chess AI programming and I have used
that algorithm and read papers that cited and expanded his to improve
my own engine.

But again, these things are described much simpler in other places.
His books and papers are very detailed and exact and can be very
difficult to digest. If you just want to use the algorithm or data
structure in question then you don't need all that. Knuth is
theoretical, if you want 'practical' you can get your information more
easily elsewhere. This doesn't mean Knuth is not important...it just
means he has a totally different goal in discussing things.
so what exactly is real stuff?, in context of algorithms, & where can i
get that real-suff?


bookpool.com and look up algorithm. Since you are in the C++ newsgroup
I assume that is the language you want to use...try something specific
to that language. Hell, it might even make the discussion topical.

Jun 14 '06 #9

Victor Bazarov wrote:
Your brain has a limited capacity for learning (just like everybody
else's). Learning is based on memory. Memory is formed in neurons.
With the limited number of neurons in your brain, you have to choose
what to use the for.


Worse, we only use 10% of those nurons as far as science can tell.
Certainly for most things we think of as "thought" and "memory". In
fact, they are only represented by some fraction of the 10%....the rest
of that 10% are feelings, instincts, and body control. So really, our
storage capacity is quite limited unless you find a way to access that
other 90%.

Jun 14 '06 #10

This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion.

Similar topics

9
5881
by: mead | last post by:
What kind of classes is qualified as "concrete classes"? When should a member function in a class defined as "pure virtual" and when as "virtual"? Thanks!
0
1202
by: Steven T. Hatton | last post by:
If you are into 3d programming, you may be interested in this book: _Essential Mathematics for Games and Interactive Applications_ http://tinyurl.com/4wrl6 I just bought it on a lark. After looking it over, I have to say it looks to be well written. The reason I'm mentioning it here is because it comes with what looks to be a pretty nice C++ library. The licensing terms for the CD seem quite reasonable. Basically, you can use the...
2
2152
by: Wat | last post by:
Is it doable to have a abstract class derived from a concrete class? Is it a good practice? If so in what situation is this necessary? Thanks in advance!
7
1688
by: Anitha | last post by:
What are abstract classes and concrete classes
4
1289
by: Julia | last post by:
Hi, I have a EmailMessage and a UrgentMessage objects both derived from IMessage i also have BadMedia and GoodMedia objects both derived from IMedia GoodMedia:IMedia string Subject string Body BadMedia:IMedia
3
1216
by: Julia | last post by:
Hi, In general my question is how can I set properties on a concrete class while programming against interfaces For example I have a MailServerFatory which can create two types of Mail servers and return IMailServer
1
1734
by: Juan R. | last post by:
The initial CanonMath program presented here http://canonicalscience.blogspot.com/2006/02/choosing-notationsyntax-for-canonmath.html] was discussed with several specialists, including father of XML-MAIDEN project (which provided many interesting ideas over original desing). The initial CanonMath program (was abandoned) was presented at the w3c mailing list for mathematics. There was little discussion but subsequent discussion on others...
0
1425
by: Juan R. | last post by:
Since the idea of encoding mathematics using MathML is being very far from popular due to a number of factors -expensive tools, bad accesibility of generated code, unusual verbosity, lack of adequate support, special fonts, namespaces, special plugins, backward incompatiblity of MathML with other internet technologies, duplication of code, and others-, alternative encodings are spreading over the internet. Probably the most popular one...
19
157
by: Terry Reedy | last post by:
"Luis Zarrabeitia" <kyrie@uh.cuwrote in message news:200805081914.06459.kyrie@uh.cu... | Btw, there seems to be a math problem in python with exponentiation... | >>0**0 | 1 | That 0^0 should be a nan or exception, I guess, but not 1. a**b is 1 multiplied by a, b times. 1 multiplied by 0 no times is 1. But there are unenlighted people who agree with you ;-) Wikipedia has a discussion of this.
0
8644
by: Hystou | last post by:
Most computers default to English, but sometimes we require a different language, especially when relocating. Forgot to request a specific language before your computer shipped? No problem! You can effortlessly switch the default language on Windows 10 without reinstalling. I'll walk you through it. First, let's disable language synchronization. With a Microsoft account, language settings sync across devices. To prevent any complications,...
1
8970
by: Hystou | last post by:
Overview: Windows 11 and 10 have less user interface control over operating system update behaviour than previous versions of Windows. In Windows 11 and 10, there is no way to turn off the Windows Update option using the Control Panel or Settings app; it automatically checks for updates and installs any it finds, whether you like it or not. For most users, this new feature is actually very convenient. If you want to control the update process,...
0
8924
tracyyun
by: tracyyun | last post by:
Dear forum friends, With the development of smart home technology, a variety of wireless communication protocols have appeared on the market, such as Zigbee, Z-Wave, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc. Each protocol has its own unique characteristics and advantages, but as a user who is planning to build a smart home system, I am a bit confused by the choice of these technologies. I'm particularly interested in Zigbee because I've heard it does some...
1
6560
isladogs
by: isladogs | last post by:
The next Access Europe User Group meeting will be on Wednesday 1 May 2024 starting at 18:00 UK time (6PM UTC+1) and finishing by 19:30 (7.30PM). In this session, we are pleased to welcome a new presenter, Adolph Dupré who will be discussing some powerful techniques for using class modules. He will explain when you may want to use classes instead of User Defined Types (UDT). For example, to manage the data in unbound forms. Adolph will...
0
5902
by: conductexam | last post by:
I have .net C# application in which I am extracting data from word file and save it in database particularly. To store word all data as it is I am converting the whole word file firstly in HTML and then checking html paragraph one by one. At the time of converting from word file to html my equations which are in the word document file was convert into image. Globals.ThisAddIn.Application.ActiveDocument.Select();...
0
4403
by: TSSRALBI | last post by:
Hello I'm a network technician in training and I need your help. I am currently learning how to create and manage the different types of VPNs and I have a question about LAN-to-LAN VPNs. The last exercise I practiced was to create a LAN-to-LAN VPN between two Pfsense firewalls, by using IPSEC protocols. I succeeded, with both firewalls in the same network. But I'm wondering if it's possible to do the same thing, with 2 Pfsense firewalls...
0
4656
by: adsilva | last post by:
A Windows Forms form does not have the event Unload, like VB6. What one acts like?
2
2392
muto222
by: muto222 | last post by:
How can i add a mobile payment intergratation into php mysql website.
3
2027
bsmnconsultancy
by: bsmnconsultancy | last post by:
In today's digital era, a well-designed website is crucial for businesses looking to succeed. Whether you're a small business owner or a large corporation in Toronto, having a strong online presence can significantly impact your brand's success. BSMN Consultancy, a leader in Website Development in Toronto offers valuable insights into creating effective websites that not only look great but also perform exceptionally well. In this comprehensive...

By using Bytes.com and it's services, you agree to our Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.

To disable or enable advertisements and analytics tracking please visit the manage ads & tracking page.