Why is C syntax so uneasy on the eye?
In its day, was it _really_ designed by snobby programmers to scare away
potential "n00bs"? If so, and after 50+ years of programming research,
why are programming languages still being designed with C's syntax?
These questions drive me insane. Every waking minute...
Nov 14 '05
177  7089 
In article <V7************ ********@news20 .bellglobal.com >, Lew Pitcher <lp******@sympa tico.ca> writes:
FWIW, if you want a computer language that's really "uneasy on the eye", try
APL or RPG2. Even Lisp isn't very easy to read.
APL?!! APL is beauty itself, manifesting as a swell set of new
keyboard caps. C'mon - just look at that cute little rho, or the
noble edifice of the dotted-quad.
Of course, few languages can produce source as readable as ETA's.[1]
OTOH, I've had to read through pages of Java recently (analysis and design of
a new web component for my corporate masters, requiring review of our current
j2ee web apps), and if Java is the new "readabilit y", then give me C any day.
Worse spaghetti code than you could find in any assembly program. I have no
doubt that C# and C++ are just as bad.
It's possible to write highly readable code in Java, of course, just
as it is in C, but many Java programmers for some reason seem to suffer
from a variety of common style deficiencies. I've seen a lot of Java
source which was apparently written in an editor with a 200-character
line length, for example.
As untold commentators have pointed out untold times, a talented
programmer can produce a mess in any language. There *are* languages
which make it more or less convenient to produce readable source, but
for all but the worst offenders it's possible. (The only real
counterexample I can think of would be an evil esoteric language,
even then perhaps only if it didn't permit comments. I don't think
Unlambda[2] has any provision for comments, for example. If it had
them, even an Unlambda program might be rendered readable, for
suitably small values of "unreadable ".)
1. http://www.miketaylor.org.uk/tech/eta/doc/
2. http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/m...rams/unlambda/
--
Michael Wojcik mi************@ microfocus.com
Vinegar keeps more flies away than honey does.
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Grumble wrote: Lew Pitcher wrote:
I resemble that remark! :-)
You resemble[1] that remark? Are you intangible?
Old joke, obviously forgotten.
- --
Lew Pitcher
IT Consultant, Enterprise Application Architecture,
Enterprise Technology Solutions, TD Bank Financial Group
(Opinions expressed are my own, not my employers')
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"C# Learner" <cs****@learner .here> wrote in message
news:eF******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl... These are trivialities. Learn five or six computer languages (or three
or four
that are entirely unrelated to each other), /then/ formulate your
opinion.
Well, I have learned BASIC, C-like languages (C and C++), Delphi
(formerly named 'Object Pascal') and Smalltalk.
So, basically, I've learned a couple of procedural languages, and a
couple of OO ones.
And which one do seems you the best?
Which one seems to have the best syntax?
I'd say Delphi has the clearest syntax.
Delphi is boring. IMO syntax of C is much more funny.
[...]
I don't understand why I'd need to learn a few more languages to
understand that C's basic syntax could be nicer.
Suggest some improvements and I'll say you, why you're wrong ;-)
Simply:
Well, rephrasing Paul Graham, I should say "Don't wait until C will become
as
clear as Python, use Python instead".
1) Remove the need to specify parentheses for test conditions --
substitute a test condition terminator, such as Python's ':'.
Actually in C it is permitted to build much more complicated conditions.
It's generally bad programming style, but that feature requires parenteses.
2) Remove begin/end code block markers and require indentation instead.
Block markers vs. indentation is IMO eternal flame war.
Lew Pitcher wrote: Old joke, obviously forgotten.
Obviously :-)
On Thu, 27 May 2004 00:56:59 +0100, in comp.lang.c , C# Learner
<cs****@learner .here> wrote: One of the biggest flaws in C syntax, in my opinion, is the required
parentheses for test conditions.
if (FooBar(Parse(P rocess(GetInput ())))
DoSomething();
(he prefers)
if FooBar(Parse(Pr ocess(GetInput( ))):
DoSomething();
Okay, I'll bite. Why on earth do you consider this in any way an
improvement? What difference does it make to anything?
--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.angelfire.c om/ms3/bchambless0/welcome_to_clc. html>
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On Thu, 27 May 2004 04:36:24 +0100, in comp.lang.c , C# Learner
<cs****@learner .here> wrote: Aha, but I only saw Python code for the /first/ time yesterday. :-)
*shrug*
Me too. And C is much easier to read. YMMV. Obviously this entire post is off-topic. Python is not C, C will never be
Python and you've cross-posted to C# which is not C either.
Hmm... I have to disagree. I feel that this discussion is about C's
basic syntax and its ubiquity in popular modern-day languages.
But the topic of CLC is the C /language/ and using it, not whether there's
a neater way to structure the language. You could try talking about that
over in comp.std.c, but I warn you, you'll get roasted in about 2 seconds.
--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.angelfire.c om/ms3/bchambless0/welcome_to_clc. html>
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On Thu, 27 May 2004 04:36:24 +0100, in comp.lang.c , C# Learner
<cs****@learner .here> wrote: Aha, but I only saw Python code for the /first/ time yesterday. :-)
*shrug*
Me too. And C is much easier to read. YMMV. Obviously this entire post is off-topic. Python is not C, C will never be
Python and you've cross-posted to C# which is not C either.
Hmm... I have to disagree. I feel that this discussion is about C's
basic syntax and its ubiquity in popular modern-day languages.
But the topic of CLC is the C /language/ and using it, not whether there's
a neater way to structure the language. You could try talking about that
over in comp.std.c, but I warn you, you'll get roasted in about 2 seconds.
--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.angelfire.c om/ms3/bchambless0/welcome_to_clc. html>
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Irrwahn Grausewitz wrote:
[...snip...] Smalltalk is a functional language.
How do you define "functional language" ?
On Thu, 27 May 2004 03:40:42 +0100, "Kieran Simkin"
<ki****@digit al-crocus.com> wrote: Another nicety about Python is the fact that whitespace is used for
defining code blocks.
What you call a nicety <sic>, I call a liability.
--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting re************* ***********@att .net
On Thu, 27 May 2004 04:36:24 +0100, C# Learner <cs****@learner .here>
wrote: Also, I guess I'm just trying to make a point and get heard here; and,
at the same time, I want to hear what those who are more experienced
than me have to say on the matter -- especially C gurus!
For the record, I don't /hate/ this C syntax of which I talk. I just
have a feeling of disbelief, perhaps, that some badly-implemented (in my
opinion) syntactial elements of the C language have passed through to
modern programming languages.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that you don't have a
deep enough understanding of the C language, and indeed of programming
languages in general, to appreciate the reasons for the syntax
features you're commenting on. Take your original example of
eliminating the deli meters around the conditional in an if statement.
Think about what this would mean for compound conditions. Combine that
with the Python-style blocking and then think about an if statement
which tests for several conditions, requiring more than one line to
write.
As you study and understand the language, you'll find that it's all
nicely consistent, and that there are good reasons for most of the
features which seem odd to you. One of the characteristics of C is
terseness, and extra parens aren't required by the language for no
reason.
Also, think about the fact that language inventors and implementers
are, by and large, a pretty bright bunch. In general, they probably
have more and wider experience in the field than you do, and some of
them might even be as smart ;-) Those features which have passed
through to modern languages have done so for a reason.
--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting re************* ***********@att .net This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics | |
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