C Syntax

[C# Learner]

Why is C syntax so uneasy on the eye?

In its day, was it _really_ designed by snobby programmers to scare away
potential "n00bs"? If so, and after 50+ years of programming research,
why are programming languages still being designed with C's syntax?

These questions drive me insane. Every waking minute...

[Dan Pop]

In <sl************ ****@ID-227112.user.uni-berlin.de> Sam Dennis <sa*@malfunctio n.screaming.net > writes:

Dan Pop wrote:

[In VIM]
Set sw=4 and leave ts to its default value of 8. Open a new file,
enter insert mode and type " alpha". Save the file and check that
the hand input spaces are there:

Of course.

Reopen the file, with the same vi settings and use the shift right
command, then save the file and check that the hand input spaces are
gone.

The behaviour is consistent between vim on Linux and vi on Solaris, BTW.

Not here; I have 'expandtab' set by default. While there may not be a
universal solution for all vi clones, that's no reason to ignore those
presented by the individual editors you use.

It certainly is, when you expect *consistent* behaviour from vi on all
platforms. The *last* thing I want to do when using vi is remembering on
which platform I am and what is the right solution for my problem.

It is already bad enough that Solaris comes with an ancient, BSD-style
vi that doesn't recognise the cursor keys in input mode...

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Da*****@ifh.de

[Keith Thompson]

Da*****@cern.ch (Dan Pop) writes:
[...]

It certainly is, when you expect *consistent* behaviour from vi on all
platforms. The *last* thing I want to do when using vi is remembering on
which platform I am and what is the right solution for my problem.

It is already bad enough that Solaris comes with an ancient, BSD-style
vi that doesn't recognise the cursor keys in input mode...

You might consider downloading one of the free vi clones (vim, nvi,
whatever) and building it on Solaris -- though that might not be
practical if you jump around to various machines.

(Way OT: strictly speaking, nvi isn't a vi clone; it's the direct
descendant of the original vi.)

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keit h) ks***@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.

[Dik T. Winter]

In article <ca**********@s unnews.cern.ch> Da*****@cern.ch (Dan Pop) writes:

In <sl************ ****@ID-227112.user.uni-berlin.de> Sam Dennis <sa*@malfunctio n.screaming.net > writes: ....

Not here; I have 'expandtab' set by default. While there may not be a
universal solution for all vi clones, that's no reason to ignore those
presented by the individual editors you use.

It certainly is, when you expect *consistent* behaviour from vi on all
platforms. The *last* thing I want to do when using vi is remembering on
which platform I am and what is the right solution for my problem.

Wrong. You expect consistent behaviour from vi and vim, two completely
different programs. That vim is called vi on some platforms is irrelevant.
It is already bad enough that Solaris comes with an ancient, BSD-style
vi that doesn't recognise the cursor keys in input mode...

Why, exactly, is this bad? And to be sure, I know of only one vi, the old
BSD-style one. Others are clones under different names. This is similar
to complaining that cc under Solaris does not do exactly the same as cc
under Linux.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, [phone]
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

[Dik T. Winter]

In article <ca**********@s unnews.cern.ch> Da*****@cern.ch (Dan Pop) writes:

In <Hz********@cwi .nl> "Dik T. Winter" <Di********@cwi .nl> writes:

....

You are still missing the point. These commands do not generate spaces,
so there is no conversion.

Reopen the file, with the same vi settings and use the shift right
command, then save the file and check that the hand input spaces are
gone:

fangorn:~/tmp 162> od -b foo
0000000 011 141 154 160 150 141 012
0000007

Where are the spaces I have input with my hand?

Nowhere. With your command you asked vi to recalculate the indentation.
How is vi to know how you want the reindentation to be done? Should it
have added four spaces in front of each line? if so, what about lines
with initial tabs, the tabs should be expanded to spaces?
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, [phone]
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

[Villy Kruse]

On 9 Jun 2004 15:34:18 GMT,
Dan Pop <Da*****@cern.c h> wrote:

fangorn:~/tmp 162> od -b foo
0000000 011 141 154 160 150 141 012
0000007

Where are the spaces I have input with my hand?

The behaviour is consistent between vim on Linux and vi on Solaris, BTW.

And anyone who don't like this behaviour could start using vim and set
the :expandtab option. For example by adding the folloing at the beginning
or the end of your C source file:

/* vim :set cindent shiftwidth=4 expandtab: */

If you don't like cindent just ommit it.

Villy

[Dan Pop]

In <ln************ @nuthaus.mib.or g> Keith Thompson <ks***@mib.or g> writes:

Da*****@cern.c h (Dan Pop) writes:
[...]

It certainly is, when you expect *consistent* behaviour from vi on all
platforms. The *last* thing I want to do when using vi is remembering on
which platform I am and what is the right solution for my problem.

It is already bad enough that Solaris comes with an ancient, BSD-style
vi that doesn't recognise the cursor keys in input mode...

You might consider downloading one of the free vi clones (vim, nvi,
whatever) and building it on Solaris -- though that might not be
practical if you jump around to various machines.

I jump around hundreds of machines, as I'm working in a computer center,
hence my strong preference for building a consistent environment out of
the "standard" components available. I'm perfectly capable of using vi
without cursor keys at all (except for hjkl in command mode) and this is
what I do when having to do significant work on Solaris (regardless of
what system I happen to be at the moment).

At some point, I had to deal with 8 different Unix flavours and the
worst incompatibility for interactive sessions was the ps command
(ps aux vs ps -ef), so I've put it behind a wrapper script. A lot
of fun making software work everywhere, since this was in the days
before the great Unix unification (SUS1) and the original POSIX was
a big failure (it ignored far too many things, especially BSDisms).

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Da*****@ifh.de

[Dan Pop]

In <Hz********@cwi .nl> "Dik T. Winter" <Di********@cwi .nl> writes:

In article <ca**********@s unnews.cern.ch> Da*****@cern.ch (Dan Pop) writes:

In <Hz********@cwi .nl> "Dik T. Winter" <Di********@cwi .nl> writes:...

You are still missing the point. These commands do not generate spaces,
so there is no conversion.

Reopen the file, with the same vi settings and use the shift right
command, then save the file and check that the hand input spaces are
gone:

fangorn:~/tmp 162> od -b foo
0000000 011 141 154 160 150 141 012
0000007

Where are the spaces I have input with my hand?

Nowhere. With your command you asked vi to recalculate the indentation.

I have merely asked everything to be moved 4 positions to the right.
How is vi to know how you want the reindentation to be done?
According to the sw setting.
Should it have added four spaces in front of each line?
For best results, in front of each non-white space character on each of
the lines affected by the shift command. No recalculation needed at all!
ONLY left shifts need recalculation, in the presence of tabs. And this
recalculation should never replace spaces by tabs.
if so, what about lines
with initial tabs, the tabs should be expanded to spaces?

According to the above, tabs become an issue only for left shifts.

Depending on the exact nature of the shift, one tab may have to be
converted to spaces and some of the spaces removed. Unless you know a
better way of implementing left shifts on lines starting with tabs.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Da*****@ifh.de

[Dan Pop]

In <Hz********@cwi .nl> "Dik T. Winter" <Di********@cwi .nl> writes:

In article <ca**********@s unnews.cern.ch> Da*****@cern.ch (Dan Pop) writes:

In <sl************ ****@ID-227112.user.uni-berlin.de> Sam Dennis <sa*@malfunctio n.screaming.net > writes:...

Not here; I have 'expandtab' set by default. While there may not be a
universal solution for all vi clones, that's no reason to ignore those
presented by the individual editors you use.

It certainly is, when you expect *consistent* behaviour from vi on all
platforms. The *last* thing I want to do when using vi is remembering on
which platform I am and what is the right solution for my problem.

Wrong. You expect consistent behaviour from vi and vim, two completely
different programs. That vim is called vi on some platforms is irrelevant.

I don't expect it, I'm doing my best to configure vi in such a way that it
becomes consistent across platforms. I couldn't care less about the real
name of the program I get when I invoke vi (at some time in the past,
elvis and later nvi were the "vi" of the Linux distributions I was using).

It is already bad enough that Solaris comes with an ancient, BSD-style
vi that doesn't recognise the cursor keys in input mode...

Why, exactly, is this bad? And to be sure, I know of only one vi, the old
BSD-style one.

That's due to your ignorance. There are also SystemV vi, POSIX vi, SUSx
vi.

From the Solaris man page:

The standard Solaris version of vi will be replaced by the
POSIX.2-conforming version (see standards(5)) in the future.
Others are clones under different names.
OK, what are the "real" names of "the standard Solaris version of vi",
SystemV vi, POSIX vi and SUSx vi?
This is similar
to complaining that cc under Solaris does not do exactly the same as cc
under Linux.

It is similar to complaining that a system supposend to follow a standard
doesn't follow it completely. See the above quote from the vi man page
on Solaris.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Da*****@ifh.de

[Keith Thompson]

Um, guys, there is a comp.editors newsgroup. I suspect everyone here
either knows how vi handles tabs, or doesn't care.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keit h) ks***@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.

[Dan Pop]

In <ln************ @nuthaus.mib.or g> Keith Thompson <ks***@mib.or g> writes:

Um, guys, there is a comp.editors newsgroup. I suspect everyone here
either knows how vi handles tabs, or doesn't care.

In which case, they killfiled this thread, already tagged as off topic,
long ago.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Da*****@ifh.de