I am planning on developing an application which will involve skills that I
have very little experience of - therefore I would appreciate comments on my
initial design thoughts.
Overview on system:
I'm not going to divulge the exact aims of the application but the purpose
of it is to allow multiple client applications to retrieve data from a
database (on a db server) and feed this data into another Windows
application using it's C++ API (already provided to me). There could
eventually be thousands of client apps connecting to this server, and the
database could have millions of rows. Each row of data retrieved would
typically have around 5-10 fields of information and rows would only be
retreived one at a time ie each transmission between server and client would
be only one row of data.
Rough design plans:
I plan on having the following major components:-
- The source database
- The server-side application
- The client application which will run on Windows and will use an API to
control another Windows application on the same machine
- The database driven web application
I am planning on making the source database using mySQL due to the obvious
licensing benefits. This side of things is easy to me as I specialise in
databases (although primarily MS SQL Server).
The server side application will be written in Java and will use JDBC to
connect to the database. I am planning on implementing a cache into this app
so that database reads are relatively infrequent in comparison to data
requests from the client apps.
The client-side application will potentially run on thousands of client PCs.
It will request data from the server-side app which it will then feed on to
the other Windows application using the API. I am planning on writing this
in C++ as the API is in C++
The web application will connect to the database and will allow users to
manage the data. I will probably write this in PHP.
Issues/questions:
- What is the best method to allow the C++ client app to speak to the Java
server application (e.g. request, send and receive data) - what about SOAP?
- Will a Java server-side app cope efficiently with for example 10,000
simultaneous client connections with each requesting data roughly once every
10 seconds?
- In these plans I have given the web application a direct connection to the
source database. Is this a serious security risk and if it is what steps
should I take to minimise this risk?
- Is it easy to encrypt the data transmission between the C++ client app and
the Java server app?
- Should I consider any different approaches to the ones mentioned in my
rough design plans?
Please bear in mind that I have almost no experience of writing cient-server
applications so any comments, advice, tips or pointers to relevant reading
material would be greatly appreciated.
TIA.
43  2851 
Davey wrote: I am planning on developing an application which will involve skills that I
have very little experience of - therefore I would appreciate comments on my
initial design thoughts.
Overview on system:
I'm not going to divulge the exact aims of the application but the purpose
of it is to allow multiple client applications to retrieve data from a
database (on a db server) and feed this data into another Windows
application using it's C++ API (already provided to me). There could
eventually be thousands of client apps connecting to this server, and the
database could have millions of rows. Each row of data retrieved would
typically have around 5-10 fields of information and rows would only be
retreived one at a time ie each transmission between server and client would
be only one row of data.
Rough design plans:
I plan on having the following major components:-
- The source database
- The server-side application
- The client application which will run on Windows and will use an API to
control another Windows application on the same machine
- The database driven web application
I am planning on making the source database using mySQL due to the obvious
licensing benefits. This side of things is easy to me as I specialise in
databases (although primarily MS SQL Server).
The server side application will be written in Java and will use JDBC to
connect to the database. I am planning on implementing a cache into this app
so that database reads are relatively infrequent in comparison to data
requests from the client apps.
The client-side application will potentially run on thousands of client PCs.
It will request data from the server-side app which it will then feed on to
the other Windows application using the API. I am planning on writing this
in C++ as the API is in C++
The web application will connect to the database and will allow users to
manage the data. I will probably write this in PHP.
Issues/questions:
- What is the best method to allow the C++ client app to speak to the Java
server application (e.g. request, send and receive data) - what about SOAP?
- Will a Java server-side app cope efficiently with for example 10,000
simultaneous client connections with each requesting data roughly once every
10 seconds?
- In these plans I have given the web application a direct connection to the
source database. Is this a serious security risk and if it is what steps
should I take to minimise this risk?
- Is it easy to encrypt the data transmission between the C++ client app and
the Java server app?
- Should I consider any different approaches to the ones mentioned in my
rough design plans?
Please bear in mind that I have almost no experience of writing cient-server
applications so any comments, advice, tips or pointers to relevant reading
material would be greatly appreciated.
TIA.
TIA, it sounds like you've bitten off more than you can chew.
Your volume of connections both to your app and to the database
stress most technologies. How did such a large architecture task
get assigned to somebody without experience?
Wibble wrote: How did such a large architecture task
get assigned to somebody without experience?
It's not always a matter of _assignment_. Maybe he's an entrepreneur
inventing something on his own. I've been in that position and you do
have to stretch yourself out. You can't hire someone to do the things
you aren't expert at till you at least have a proof of concept ... so
you learn fast.
Davey wrote: - Will a Java server-side app cope efficiently with for example 10,000
simultaneous client connections with each requesting data roughly once every
10 seconds?
Tomcat web server (java) is definitily very fast, so it is a good choice.
- In these plans I have given the web application a direct connection to the
source database. Is this a serious security risk and if it is what steps
should I take to minimise this risk?
If you make your web application properly, you won't have security risk.
Anyway, regularly backup is always a good idea.
- Is it easy to encrypt the data transmission between the C++ client app and
the Java server app?
Yes, you can use HTTPS inside Tomcat web server.
Please bear in mind that I have almost no experience of writing cient-server
applications so any comments, advice, tips or pointers to relevant reading
material would be greatly appreciated.
RTFM.
"Wibble" <Wi****@Mailina tor.com> wrote in message
news:Bt******** ************@rc n.net... How did such a large architecture task
get assigned to somebody without experience?
Because I am the one who assigned the task to myself.
"Henry Townsend" <he************ @not.here> wrote in message
news:h8******** ************@co mcast.com... Wibble wrote:
How did such a large architecture task
get assigned to somebody without experience?
It's not always a matter of _assignment_. Maybe he's an entrepreneur
inventing something on his own. I've been in that position and you do have
to stretch yourself out. You can't hire someone to do the things you
aren't expert at till you at least have a proof of concept ... so you
learn fast.
Exactly.
On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 16:38:23 GMT, "Davey" <da***@hotmail. com> wrote or
quoted : The client-side application will potentially run on thousands of client PCs.
It will request data from the server-side app which it will then feed on to
the other Windows application using the API. I am planning on writing this
in C++ as the API is in C++
One area of concern is this Java-C++ boundary.
There are several ways you could implement it:
1. write the app in Java with a JNI library to the C++ app
manipulators.
2. Talk to your C++ app with a socket connecting to Java.
3. some sort of circular buffer disk file shared between java and C++
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts.
On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 16:38:23 GMT, "Davey" <da***@hotmail. com> wrote or
quoted : - What is the best method to allow the C++ client app to speak to the Java
server application (e.g. request, send and receive data) - what about SOAP?
Your choices are wide : see
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/remotefileaccess.html
They are even wider if you have Java on both ends. What's the best way
depends on many things:
There are three most likely approaches:
1. http get. The response can be text or binary, uncompressed or
compressed. This is the garden variety way to solve it. I would not
suggest adding extra layers like XML, SOAP etc since your app is so
simple that all you would be doing is adding overhead. You don't
need the flexibility.
2. raw sockets. This assumes a user has an extended session with many
requests one after the other. It also assumes you don't have all that
many users potentially connected at once.
3. datagrams. Presumes responses are short. You must handle lost
packets yourself. Particularly useful if there is peer to peer
communication.
- Will a Java server-side app cope efficiently with for example 10,000
simultaneous client connections with each requesting data roughly once every
10 seconds?
A one every 10 seconds for 10,000 users, you want to pump 1000
transactions per second through your system. Lets say that each
transaction required 200 bytes of payload plus another 200 bytes of
overhead. That means you want to emit 400,000 bytes per second. That
is 4 million bits per second. A T2 data connection is 6 million bits
per second rated. So you would probably want a pair of them. Last
time I looked I would have had to mortgage my house to get such a
connection. I presume they are lower now.
Let's say for example that database lived on disk and you had enough
ram so that the index was 100% cached, or you were doing lookup by
relative record number on a flat file. You could thus do a lookup with
a single disk access.
Let's presume your hard disk got 10 ms average seek/read time. You
need to do 1000 accesses per second. In other words you have 10
seconds worth of accesses to do every second. Oops! You need then 10
SSCI disks with overlapped seek/read, or some massive caching so that
90% of transactions can be handled with ZERO disk accesses.
You are talking airline reservation type volumes. Somebody more
experienced should be in charge here, or at least signing off on
whatever plan you come up with. You don't want to spend those kind of
bucks based on the say so of some person on the net with no
accountability for your project.
The Java server does bugger all. You might not even bother with a full
blown womb, and just write a little special purpose server that just
handles this one app. Even with a womb, the server just makes the
query and enqueues the result for going out the wire. You don't even
need to wrap the data in an HTML page.
- In these plans I have given the web application a direct connection to the
source database. Is this a serious security risk and if it is what steps
should I take to minimise this risk?
This is a big no-no from a security point of view. You would only do
it on an intranet. Further you would only do it if your applet were
very generic and conceivably make any query and display any data.
Other than that you cook up a CGI interface to make your query and
never expose JDBC to the outside. If you tried SSL or other
encryption you cut the speed in half and double your transmission
bill. If you give your client SQL access, then have a direct C++ to
SQL connection, no Java server involved.
- Is it easy to encrypt the data transmission between the C++ client app and
the Java server app?
No. It is much easier if both ends are C++ or both ends Java.
Otherwise you have to find implementations identical in absolutely
every detail. Also consider that encryption is expensive in terms of
CPU time and transmission time. It bulks up the stream. There are
several flavours of security that you could be concerned with:
1) preventing someone from getting in a hacking your database, e.g.
doing a DROP TABLE on it.
2) stopping someone from pretending to be a legit client and sending
you bum data just to screw you up. To stop this, look logins, and
digital signing, which is not as expensive as full blown encryption.
3) preventing someone tapping your phone lines or snooping on packet
from extracting data from your packets. This requires some sort of
encryption, or at least scrambling so that it is not obvious how to
read the data. This would be mandatory for example if your packets
contained credit card numbers
- Should I consider any different approaches to the ones mentioned in my
rough design plans?
If you are trying to do this on the cheap, have a look at how
BitTorrent works. You might do something similar to distribute the
entire database over your users and have them hand it off to each
other.
see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/bittorrent.html
Another approach if the database is slowly changing is to maintain a
local copy of it with each client. Your job then in just to keep them
abreast of changes.
Have a look at the Replicator:
see http://mindprod.com/webstarts/replicator.html
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts.
Davey wrote: I am planning on developing an application which will involve skills that I
have very little experience of - therefore I would appreciate comments on my
initial design thoughts.
Overview on system:
I'm not going to divulge the exact aims of the application but the purpose
of it is to allow multiple client applications to retrieve data from a
database (on a db server) and feed this data into another Windows
application using it's C++ API (already provided to me). There could
eventually be thousands of client apps connecting to this server, and the
database could have millions of rows. Each row of data retrieved would
typically have around 5-10 fields of information and rows would only be
retreived one at a time ie each transmission between server and client would
be only one row of data.
Rough design plans:
I plan on having the following major components:-
- The source database
- The server-side application
- The client application which will run on Windows and will use an API to
control another Windows application on the same machine
- The database driven web application
I am planning on making the source database using mySQL due to the obvious
licensing benefits. This side of things is easy to me as I specialise in
databases (although primarily MS SQL Server).
The server side application will be written in Java and will use JDBC to
connect to the database. I am planning on implementing a cache into this app
so that database reads are relatively infrequent in comparison to data
requests from the client apps.
The client-side application will potentially run on thousands of client PCs.
It will request data from the server-side app which it will then feed on to
the other Windows application using the API. I am planning on writing this
in C++ as the API is in C++
The web application will connect to the database and will allow users to
manage the data. I will probably write this in PHP.
Issues/questions:
- What is the best method to allow the C++ client app to speak to the Java
server application (e.g. request, send and receive data) - what about SOAP?
Soap would work, webservices also.
- Will a Java server-side app cope efficiently with for example 10,000
simultaneous client connections with each requesting data roughly once every
10 seconds?
Depends on a lot of things, but at least it doesn't sound like a smart
idea to let every client keep it's own permanent/persistent connection,
keeping state for 10.000 clients eats resources that could be spent
wiser. Keep it stateless if you can.
- In these plans I have given the web application a direct connection to the
source database. Is this a serious security risk and if it is what steps
should I take to minimise this risk?
If it is possible for the end-user to post a form with values that
actually will be interpreted as SQL by the database, you have a serious
risk. Also, if you have your webserver in a demilitarized zone and your
appserver inside the firewall it means that you need to open up for
database access from the dmz, which you otherwise wouldn't have.
- Is it easy to encrypt the data transmission between the C++ client app and
the Java server app?
https?
- Should I consider any different approaches to the ones mentioned in my
rough design plans?
Consider if you really need to allow access directly from the web
application to the database. Generally it sounds like a bad idea to have
two ways of accessing the database, but you may have a good reason?
When it comes to database; there are alternatives to mySQL. mySQL is
running all over, so it's a proven solution and if you encounter any
problems it's likely that someone already has solved them or found a
workaround already. mySQL has a cache-mechanism and a pretty solid jdbc
driver (java connectivity). But; mySQL has not yet all features one
normally expect from a rdbms, triggers and stored procedures are
scheduled for version 5, as far as I know, and I recently learned that
it can't facilitate more than one index per table when performing
multitable queries. I suppose it has row-level locking these days?
So you should really study the feature set and see if it is sufficient
for your needs. If it is then go for it. Alternatives would be MySQL
MAX (former SAP db) or PostgreSQL.
Please bear in mind that I have almost no experience of writing cient-server
applications so any comments, advice, tips or pointers to relevant reading
material would be greatly appreciated.
Read up on J2EE architecture. Free books available at
www.theserverside.com, and lots of useful stuff available from Sun too.
TIA.
--
jon martin solaas
"Roedy Green" <my************ *************** ***@munged.inva lid> wrote in
message news:1u******** *************** *********@4ax.c om... On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 16:38:23 GMT, "Davey" <da***@hotmail. com> wrote or
quoted :
- What is the best method to allow the C++ client app to speak to the Java
server application (e.g. request, send and receive data) - what about
SOAP? Your choices are wide : see
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/remotefileaccess.html
They are even wider if you have Java on both ends. What's the best way
depends on many things:
There are three most likely approaches:
1. http get. The response can be text or binary, uncompressed or
compressed. This is the garden variety way to solve it. I would not
suggest adding extra layers like XML, SOAP etc since your app is so
simple that all you would be doing is adding overhead. You don't
need the flexibility.
Interesting - and new to me. Just to confirm - this would work with a
standard Windows C++ application connecting to a Java server sending and
receiving textual data?
If you can point me in the direction of any reading material on this I would
be grateful.
2. raw sockets. This assumes a user has an extended session with many
requests one after the other. It also assumes you don't have all that
many users potentially connected at once.
This was what I initially assumed I would use. I'm not entirely sure whether
you would consider this application having "extended sessions" - e.g. a
client would connect to the server at a varying frequency... sometimes once
every 10 seconds, then sometimes not for another 10 minutes during typical
usage. Overall though they would use it for a typical working day i.e. 8
hours.
Is this an "extended session"?
- Will a Java server-side app cope efficiently with for example 10,000
simultaneou s client connections with each requesting data roughly once
every
10 seconds?
A one every 10 seconds for 10,000 users, you want to pump 1000
transactions per second through your system. Lets say that each
transaction required 200 bytes of payload plus another 200 bytes of
overhead. That means you want to emit 400,000 bytes per second. That
is 4 million bits per second. A T2 data connection is 6 million bits
per second rated. So you would probably want a pair of them. Last
time I looked I would have had to mortgage my house to get such a
connection. I presume they are lower now.
Let's say for example that database lived on disk and you had enough
ram so that the index was 100% cached, or you were doing lookup by
relative record number on a flat file. You could thus do a lookup with
a single disk access.
Let's presume your hard disk got 10 ms average seek/read time. You
need to do 1000 accesses per second. In other words you have 10
seconds worth of accesses to do every second. Oops! You need then 10
SSCI disks with overlapped seek/read, or some massive caching so that
90% of transactions can be handled with ZERO disk accesses.
You are talking airline reservation type volumes. Somebody more
experienced should be in charge here, or at least signing off on
whatever plan you come up with. You don't want to spend those kind of
bucks based on the say so of some person on the net with no
accountability for your project.
OK, my solution to this problem is reduce the number of users or build more
servers. The 10,000 was just a figure I hoped I would fit onto one server...
:)
The Java server does bugger all. You might not even bother with a full
blown womb, and just write a little special purpose server that just
handles this one app. Even with a womb, the server just makes the
query and enqueues the result for going out the wire. You don't even
need to wrap the data in an HTML page.
Sorry... what do you mean by "womb"?
- In these plans I have given the web application a direct connection to
the
source database. Is this a serious security risk and if it is what steps
should I take to minimise this risk?
This is a big no-no from a security point of view. You would only do
it on an intranet. Further you would only do it if your applet were
very generic and conceivably make any query and display any data.
Other than that you cook up a CGI interface to make your query and
never expose JDBC to the outside. If you tried SSL or other
encryption you cut the speed in half and double your transmission
bill. If you give your client SQL access, then have a direct C++ to
SQL connection, no Java server involved.
By "web application" I just mean a PHP website which connects to my
database. Is this how you interpreted it?
- Is it easy to encrypt the data transmission between the C++ client app
and
the Java server app?
No. It is much easier if both ends are C++ or both ends Java.
Otherwise you have to find implementations identical in absolutely
every detail. Also consider that encryption is expensive in terms of
CPU time and transmission time. It bulks up the stream.
Yes, and bandwidth is an issue. I'm not sending highly sensitive data, so I
might have to do without encryption.
There are
several flavours of security that you could be concerned with:
1) preventing someone from getting in a hacking your database, e.g.
doing a DROP TABLE on it.
Yes, I'm aware of injection.
2) stopping someone from pretending to be a legit client and sending
you bum data just to screw you up. To stop this, look logins, and
digital signing, which is not as expensive as full blown encryption.
OK.
3) preventing someone tapping your phone lines or snooping on packet
from extracting data from your packets. This requires some sort of
encryption, or at least scrambling so that it is not obvious how to
read the data. This would be mandatory for example if your packets
contained credit card numbers
OK.
- Should I consider any different approaches to the ones mentioned in my
rough design plans?
If you are trying to do this on the cheap, have a look at how
BitTorrent works. You might do something similar to distribute the
entire database over your users and have them hand it off to each
other.
see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/bittorrent.html
I would like it to be suitable for something like this but unfortunately it
isn't.
Another approach if the database is slowly changing is to maintain a
local copy of it with each client. Your job then in just to keep them
abreast of changes.
Have a look at the Replicator:
see http://mindprod.com/webstarts/replicator.html
The data is changing constantly and will potentiall involve large volumes
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Hai team
i want code for transfer the data from one system to another through IP address by using C# our system has to for every 5mins then we have to update the data what the data is updated we have to send another system
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by: muto222 |
last post by:
How can i add a mobile payment intergratation into php mysql website.
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