VS2005 NOT Compatiblke with Vista? Are you serious?!

[Squishy]

I tried installing my VS2005 Pro on Vista Ultimate 32 bit RTM today and got
errors stating that VS2005 was not compatible with Vista.

Microsoft...... please pull your finger out of my ass and tell me this is a
joke.

It must be a joke....because I also have read that VS2002 and VS2003 will
not be supported on Vista. This clearly violates Microsoft's own terms of
support for these products.

Is this even legal?

[Jim Hubbard]

Just a test - I have replied twice to this thread (via Microsoft Communities
newsgroup servers and Windows Mail on a Vista Ultimate PC running Windows
2007) and have not seen the replies posted - nor have I seen any rejections
or errors when posting.

I wonder if there is a thread limit or something that I am not aware
of...... I'd hate to think I'm being censored by Microsoft. Come on....I'm
not *that* important.

"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:df******** *************** *******@comcast .com...

>
"Jim Hubbard" <ji*@privateadd ress.netwrote in message
news:CB******** *************** ***********@mic rosoft.com...

>The Mac situation really does suck - thats why there are so few Mac users
(<3% of all computer users).

Well, I think Macs are kind of cool, but I wouldn't buy one because there
are so few jobs writing software for them. :-) That's just economics to
me.

>I guess I look at things from the user's standpoint rather than the
company standpoint because I figure that what is good for the users (and
within reason) is also good for the company. Refusing to support VS2003
on Vista when you had agreed to do so previously is niether good for the
customer or the company.

I agree with that. I'm surprised by their decision to do that. They ported
VS6 and VS8, how much more work could it be to port VS7?

<snip>

>MS does what they want because they're the only game in town.
Microsoft basically has no boundaries. There is nobody ready to eat
their lunch if they screw up. So there is a tendency (which is also
human nature btw) to get away with as much as you can.

I think the quote is "It's easier to beg forgiveness than it is to ask
permission."

>Scrap Vista and start from scratch

There's no way they could afford to do that. And there's a lot with XP
that worked just fine. Mine only BSOD'd on me once in 3 years. It's always
better to fix what you have than it is to scrap it and start over. Joel
Spolsky (http://joelonsoftware.com) talks about this in his book, how
doing that was the end of Netscape. It took too long to start from
scratch, and in the ensuing years, MS took over the browser market. (Great
book, by the way, very very entertaining, and *not* a pro-MS book,
although he used to work for MS.)

>instead of putting out a warmed over UI change like Vista.

I think Vista looks pretty cool, and it's not just the UI that changed,
but that is what sells things to many customers. Do you think Apple would
sell as many iPod Nanos if they weren't so cute? I mean, for another $50
you can have a 30GB iPod, what's the point?

>they would be giving people ample warning that a major OS shift was
coming that would require new applications (or at least a virtual PC app
to run XP and thier old apps).

They did give people ample time. Apparently anything that was refactored
to be "Windows XP Certified" works under Vista without any major changes.
Some people did not want to spend the money to upgrade their apps to work
with XP if they could get their software to work within the confines, and
now their software won't work with Vista. (Example A: Intuit's
QuickBooks). It took MS 5 years to develop Vista, and they've been working
with customers on compatability for a couple of years now. How much
frickin' notice do people need?

>Microsoft's goal is to maximize revenue, not serve its customers.

Duh. Welcome to the corporate world. The purpose of any public corporation
is to make money for its shareholders. Period. Usually serving the
customers better aids them in that process. I think Vista and Office 2007
will do that. They are fairly impressive-looking, and after people get
over the shock, they will like it better than any version they have used
before.

I would point out that the developers are not MS's customers, the large
corporations are. However, they will not succeed as well w/o our
cooperation, and they know it, because developers help drive the business.

>I would encourage you to dscard McAfee and try NOD32 (www.eset.com). It
has a smaller footprint, scans faster and scored better than any other
protection application (including Norton, McAfee and Trend Micro) in
independent testing by Virus Bulletin (http://www.virusbtn.com/index).

I'll check it out; I definitely need to do something different. I want
something that will scan my e-mail, and let me scan my drives when I want
to. I don't want something (McAfee and Norton) that scans every single
document every time I open it. I turned ActiveScanning off, and McAfee
puts up messages about how my system isn't protected every time I reboot,
or standby and come back. It's really, really annoying. But when I open a
solution with 80 classes and a bunch of forms, I don't need all of them
to be virus-scanned. I *know* where they've been. ;-)

So will this product you've recommended plug into Outlook and scan my
e-mails? Does it do active scanning? I appreciate the information. I've
about had it with the big ones.

Thanks,
Robin S.
Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.

[RobinS]

Jim,

I can see two other responses to this thread, and this message, too. Maybe
you should try a different news server. Or maybe you're censoring yourself.
;-)

Robin S.
-----------------------------
"Jim Hubbard" <ji*@privateadd ress.netwrote in message
news:CE******** *************** ***********@mic rosoft.com...

Just a test - I have replied twice to this thread (via Microsoft
Communities newsgroup servers and Windows Mail on a Vista Ultimate PC
running Windows 2007) and have not seen the replies posted - nor have I
seen any rejections or errors when posting.

I wonder if there is a thread limit or something that I am not aware
of...... I'd hate to think I'm being censored by Microsoft. Come
on....I'm not *that* important.

"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:df******** *************** *******@comcast .com...

>>
"Jim Hubbard" <ji*@privateadd ress.netwrote in message
news:CB******* *************** ************@mi crosoft.com...

>>The Mac situation really does suck - thats why there are so few Mac
users (<3% of all computer users).

Well, I think Macs are kind of cool, but I wouldn't buy one because
there are so few jobs writing software for them. :-) That's just
economics to me.

>>I guess I look at things from the user's standpoint rather than the
company standpoint because I figure that what is good for the users
(and within reason) is also good for the company. Refusing to support
VS2003 on Vista when you had agreed to do so previously is niether good
for the customer or the company.

I agree with that. I'm surprised by their decision to do that. They
ported VS6 and VS8, how much more work could it be to port VS7?

<snip>

>>MS does what they want because they're the only game in town.
Microsoft basically has no boundaries. There is nobody ready to eat
their lunch if they screw up. So there is a tendency (which is also
human nature btw) to get away with as much as you can.

I think the quote is "It's easier to beg forgiveness than it is to ask
permission."

>>Scrap Vista and start from scratch

There's no way they could afford to do that. And there's a lot with XP
that worked just fine. Mine only BSOD'd on me once in 3 years. It's
always better to fix what you have than it is to scrap it and start
over. Joel Spolsky (http://joelonsoftware.com) talks about this in his
book, how doing that was the end of Netscape. It took too long to start
from scratch, and in the ensuing years, MS took over the browser market.
(Great book, by the way, very very entertaining, and *not* a pro-MS
book, although he used to work for MS.)

>>instead of putting out a warmed over UI change like Vista.

I think Vista looks pretty cool, and it's not just the UI that changed,
but that is what sells things to many customers. Do you think Apple
would sell as many iPod Nanos if they weren't so cute? I mean, for
another $50 you can have a 30GB iPod, what's the point?

>>they would be giving people ample warning that a major OS shift was
coming that would require new applications (or at least a virtual PC
app to run XP and thier old apps).

They did give people ample time. Apparently anything that was refactored
to be "Windows XP Certified" works under Vista without any major
changes. Some people did not want to spend the money to upgrade their
apps to work with XP if they could get their software to work within the
confines, and now their software won't work with Vista. (Example A:
Intuit's QuickBooks). It took MS 5 years to develop Vista, and they've
been working with customers on compatability for a couple of years now.
How much frickin' notice do people need?

>>Microsoft's goal is to maximize revenue, not serve its customers.

Duh. Welcome to the corporate world. The purpose of any public
corporation is to make money for its shareholders. Period. Usually
serving the customers better aids them in that process. I think Vista
and Office 2007 will do that. They are fairly impressive-looking, and
after people get over the shock, they will like it better than any
version they have used before.

I would point out that the developers are not MS's customers, the large
corporations are. However, they will not succeed as well w/o our
cooperation, and they know it, because developers help drive the
business.

>>I would encourage you to dscard McAfee and try NOD32 (www.eset.com).
It has a smaller footprint, scans faster and scored better than any
other protection application (including Norton, McAfee and Trend Micro)
in independent testing by Virus Bulletin
(http://www.virusbtn.com/index).

I'll check it out; I definitely need to do something different. I want
something that will scan my e-mail, and let me scan my drives when I
want to. I don't want something (McAfee and Norton) that scans every
single document every time I open it. I turned ActiveScanning off, and
McAfee puts up messages about how my system isn't protected every time I
reboot, or standby and come back. It's really, really annoying. But when
I open a solution with 80 classes and a bunch of forms, I don't need
all of them to be virus-scanned. I *know* where they've been. ;-)

So will this product you've recommended plug into Outlook and scan my
e-mails? Does it do active scanning? I appreciate the information. I've
about had it with the big ones.

Thanks,
Robin S.
Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.

[Jim Hubbard]

Its still not happening - I'll try and reply directly to you....

"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:O9******** *************** *******@comcast .com...

Jim,

I can see two other responses to this thread, and this message, too. Maybe
you should try a different news server. Or maybe you're censoring
yourself. ;-)

Robin S.
-----------------------------
"Jim Hubbard" <ji*@privateadd ress.netwrote in message
news:CE******** *************** ***********@mic rosoft.com...

>Just a test - I have replied twice to this thread (via Microsoft
Communities newsgroup servers and Windows Mail on a Vista Ultimate PC
running Windows 2007) and have not seen the replies posted - nor have I
seen any rejections or errors when posting.

I wonder if there is a thread limit or something that I am not aware
of...... I'd hate to think I'm being censored by Microsoft. Come
on....I'm not *that* important.

"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:df******* *************** ********@comcas t.com...

>>>
"Jim Hubbard" <ji*@privateadd ress.netwrote in message
news:CB****** *************** *************@m icrosoft.com...
The Mac situation really does suck - thats why there are so few Mac
users (<3% of all computer users).

Well, I think Macs are kind of cool, but I wouldn't buy one because
there are so few jobs writing software for them. :-) That's just
economics to me.

I guess I look at things from the user's standpoint rather than the
company standpoint because I figure that what is good for the users
(and within reason) is also good for the company. Refusing to support
VS2003 on Vista when you had agreed to do so previously is niether good
for the customer or the company.

I agree with that. I'm surprised by their decision to do that. They
ported VS6 and VS8, how much more work could it be to port VS7?

<snip>
MS does what they want because they're the only game in town.
Microsoft basically has no boundaries. There is nobody ready to eat
their lunch if they screw up. So there is a tendency (which is also
human nature btw) to get away with as much as you can.

I think the quote is "It's easier to beg forgiveness than it is to ask
permission. "

Scrap Vista and start from scratch

There's no way they could afford to do that. And there's a lot with XP
that worked just fine. Mine only BSOD'd on me once in 3 years. It's
always better to fix what you have than it is to scrap it and start
over. Joel Spolsky (http://joelonsoftware.com) talks about this in his
book, how doing that was the end of Netscape. It took too long to start
from scratch, and in the ensuing years, MS took over the browser market.
(Great book, by the way, very very entertaining, and *not* a pro-MS
book, although he used to work for MS.)

instead of putting out a warmed over UI change like Vista.

I think Vista looks pretty cool, and it's not just the UI that changed,
but that is what sells things to many customers. Do you think Apple
would sell as many iPod Nanos if they weren't so cute? I mean, for
another $50 you can have a 30GB iPod, what's the point?

they would be giving people ample warning that a major OS shift was
coming that would require new applications (or at least a virtual PC
app to run XP and thier old apps).

They did give people ample time. Apparently anything that was refactored
to be "Windows XP Certified" works under Vista without any major
changes. Some people did not want to spend the money to upgrade their
apps to work with XP if they could get their software to work within the
confines, and now their software won't work with Vista. (Example A:
Intuit's QuickBooks). It took MS 5 years to develop Vista, and they've
been working with customers on compatability for a couple of years now.
How much frickin' notice do people need?

Microsoft' s goal is to maximize revenue, not serve its customers.

Duh. Welcome to the corporate world. The purpose of any public
corporation is to make money for its shareholders. Period. Usually
serving the customers better aids them in that process. I think Vista
and Office 2007 will do that. They are fairly impressive-looking, and
after people get over the shock, they will like it better than any
version they have used before.

I would point out that the developers are not MS's customers, the large
corporation s are. However, they will not succeed as well w/o our
cooperation , and they know it, because developers help drive the
business.

I would encourage you to dscard McAfee and try NOD32 (www.eset.com). It
has a smaller footprint, scans faster and scored better than any other
protection application (including Norton, McAfee and Trend Micro) in
independen t testing by Virus Bulletin (http://www.virusbtn.com/index).

I'll check it out; I definitely need to do something different. I want
something that will scan my e-mail, and let me scan my drives when I
want to. I don't want something (McAfee and Norton) that scans every
single document every time I open it. I turned ActiveScanning off, and
McAfee puts up messages about how my system isn't protected every time I
reboot, or standby and come back. It's really, really annoying. But when
I open a solution with 80 classes and a bunch of forms, I don't need
all of them to be virus-scanned. I *know* where they've been. ;-)

So will this product you've recommended plug into Outlook and scan my
e-mails? Does it do active scanning? I appreciate the information. I've
about had it with the big ones.

Thanks,
Robin S.
Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.

[Jim Hubbard]

Scratch that - here is the reply that I can't post via Microsoft Community
newsgroup servers -
http://justwhydontpeoplegetit.blogsp...u-tell-me.html.
"Jim Hubbard" <ji*@privateadd ress.netwrote in message
news:7B******** *************** ***********@mic rosoft.com...

Its still not happening - I'll try and reply directly to you....

"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:O9******** *************** *******@comcast .com...

>Jim,

I can see two other responses to this thread, and this message, too.
Maybe you should try a different news server. Or maybe you're censoring
yourself. ;-)

Robin S.
-----------------------------
"Jim Hubbard" <ji*@privateadd ress.netwrote in message
news:CE******* *************** ************@mi crosoft.com...

>>Just a test - I have replied twice to this thread (via Microsoft
Communities newsgroup servers and Windows Mail on a Vista Ultimate PC
running Windows 2007) and have not seen the replies posted - nor have I
seen any rejections or errors when posting.

I wonder if there is a thread limit or something that I am not aware
of...... I'd hate to think I'm being censored by Microsoft. Come
on....I'm not *that* important.

"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:df****** *************** *********@comca st.com...

"Jim Hubbard" <ji*@privateadd ress.netwrote in message
news:CB***** *************** **************@ microsoft.com.. .
The Mac situation really does suck - thats why there are so few Mac
users (<3% of all computer users).

Well, I think Macs are kind of cool, but I wouldn't buy one because
there are so few jobs writing software for them. :-) That's just
economics to me.

I guess I look at things from the user's standpoint rather than the
company standpoint because I figure that what is good for the users
(and within reason) is also good for the company. Refusing to support
VS2003 on Vista when you had agreed to do so previously is niether
good for the customer or the company.

I agree with that. I'm surprised by their decision to do that. They
ported VS6 and VS8, how much more work could it be to port VS7?

<snip>
MS does what they want because they're the only game in town.
Microsoft basically has no boundaries. There is nobody ready to eat
their lunch if they screw up. So there is a tendency (which is also
human nature btw) to get away with as much as you can.

I think the quote is "It's easier to beg forgiveness than it is to ask
permission ."

Scrap Vista and start from scratch

There's no way they could afford to do that. And there's a lot with XP
that worked just fine. Mine only BSOD'd on me once in 3 years. It's
always better to fix what you have than it is to scrap it and start
over. Joel Spolsky (http://joelonsoftware.com) talks about this in his
book, how doing that was the end of Netscape. It took too long to start
from scratch, and in the ensuing years, MS took over the browser
market. (Great book, by the way, very very entertaining, and *not* a
pro-MS book, although he used to work for MS.)

instead of putting out a warmed over UI change like Vista.

I think Vista looks pretty cool, and it's not just the UI that changed,
but that is what sells things to many customers. Do you think Apple
would sell as many iPod Nanos if they weren't so cute? I mean, for
another $50 you can have a 30GB iPod, what's the point?

they would be giving people ample warning that a major OS shift was
coming that would require new applications (or at least a virtual PC
app to run XP and thier old apps).

They did give people ample time. Apparently anything that was
refactored to be "Windows XP Certified" works under Vista without any
major changes. Some people did not want to spend the money to upgrade
their apps to work with XP if they could get their software to work
within the confines, and now their software won't work with Vista.
(Example A: Intuit's QuickBooks). It took MS 5 years to develop Vista,
and they've been working with customers on compatability for a couple
of years now. How much frickin' notice do people need?

Microsoft 's goal is to maximize revenue, not serve its customers.

Duh. Welcome to the corporate world. The purpose of any public
corporatio n is to make money for its shareholders. Period. Usually
serving the customers better aids them in that process. I think Vista
and Office 2007 will do that. They are fairly impressive-looking, and
after people get over the shock, they will like it better than any
version they have used before.

I would point out that the developers are not MS's customers, the large
corporatio ns are. However, they will not succeed as well w/o our
cooperatio n, and they know it, because developers help drive the
business.

I would encourage you to dscard McAfee and try NOD32 (www.eset.com).
It has a smaller footprint, scans faster and scored better than any
other protection application (including Norton, McAfee and Trend
Micro) in independent testing by Virus Bulletin
(http://www.virusbtn.com/index).

I'll check it out; I definitely need to do something different. I want
something that will scan my e-mail, and let me scan my drives when I
want to. I don't want something (McAfee and Norton) that scans every
single document every time I open it. I turned ActiveScanning off, and
McAfee puts up messages about how my system isn't protected every time
I reboot, or standby and come back. It's really, really annoying. But
when I open a solution with 80 classes and a bunch of forms, I don't
need all of them to be virus-scanned. I *know* where they've been. ;-)

So will this product you've recommended plug into Outlook and scan my
e-mails? Does it do active scanning? I appreciate the information. I've
about had it with the big ones.

Thanks,
Robin S.
Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.

[smerf]

Well, friends, I am attempting this post from Bellsouth's newsgroup servers
on my old XP machine. Let's see if it works from here (as Bellsouth servers
currently reject ALL newsgroup posts from Windows Mail on Vista).

(5th try at posting)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:df******** *************** *******@comcast .com...

>
"Jim Hubbard" <ji*@privateadd ress.netwrote in message
news:CB******** *************** ***********@mic rosoft.com...

>The Mac situation really does suck - thats why there are so few Mac users
(<3% of all computer users).

<snip>

>MS does what they want because they're the only game in town.
Microsoft basically has no boundaries. There is nobody ready to eat
their lunch if they screw up. So there is a tendency (which is also
human nature btw) to get away with as much as you can.

I think the quote is "It's easier to beg forgiveness than it is to ask
permission."

Since when have you heard Microsoft beg anyone's forgiveness? It's more
like "Here, we did this. Now shut up and use it."

>

>Scrap Vista and start from scratch

There's no way they could afford to do that. And there's a lot with XP
that worked just fine. Mine only BSOD'd on me once in 3 years. It's always
better to fix what you have than it is to scrap it and start over. Joel
Spolsky (http://joelonsoftware.com) talks about this in his book, how
doing that was the end of Netscape. It took too long to start from
scratch, and in the ensuing years, MS took over the browser market. (Great
book, by the way, very very entertaining, and *not* a pro-MS book,
although he used to work for MS.)

I love Joel's work....got the book on my shelf and have actually read it (a
real feat with my schedule).

The problem with Netscape's rewrite is that they didn't have a competing
browser in the market while they did the rewrite, they tried to SELL thiers
(while Microsoft gave IE away) and they had real competition. Microsoft
would still have XP (which many people in businesses will run for the next
2-3 years at least) and they have no competition.

>

>instead of putting out a warmed over UI change like Vista.

I think Vista looks pretty cool, and it's not just the UI that changed,
but that is what sells things to many customers. Do you think Apple would
sell as many iPod Nanos if they weren't so cute? I mean, for another $50
you can have a 30GB iPod, what's the point?

Businesses don't buy cute - at least not the ones that I service. And home
users usually have crappy PCs (like the cheapo Dell special of the week)
that barely run as is - they can forget running Vista unless they buy a new
PC, and most of them won't fork over the cash for that.

For the most part, when I mention Vista to anyone, they kinda shrug and say
XP is working just fine for them. I agree with them too. If it ain't broke
don't fix it.

(BTW, if anyone reading this wants to make their XP look and feel like
Vista - I've heard this is good -
http://www.jcxp.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=7006 - but I haven't tried it
myself. You can also look at the tweaks on
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/pcs/the-p...ary-182597.php
or
http://www.tech-recipes.com/rx/1089/..._longhorn_free.)

>

>they would be giving people ample warning that a major OS shift was
coming that would require new applications (or at least a virtual PC app
to run XP and thier old apps).

They did give people ample time. Apparently anything that was refactored
to be "Windows XP Certified" works under Vista without any major changes.
Some people did not want to spend the money to upgrade their apps to work
with XP if they could get their software to work within the confines, and
now their software won't work with Vista. (Example A: Intuit's
QuickBooks). It took MS 5 years to develop Vista, and they've been working
with customers on compatability for a couple of years now. How much
frickin' notice do people need?

That brings up the original question in this thread.....if Microsoft knew
aout the upcoming changes AND they were even writing the OS, why the heck
isn't VS2005 compatible? It's incredible...

>

>Microsoft's goal is to maximize revenue, not serve its customers.

Duh. Welcome to the corporate world. The purpose of any public corporation
is to make money for its shareholders. Period. Usually serving the
customers better aids them in that process. I think Vista and Office 2007
will do that. They are fairly impressive-looking, and after people get
over the shock, they will like it better than any version they have used
before.

People *are* suckers for "shiny" stuff - even if there is no other benefit
(sometimes even if there is less).

But, I have always found it more profitable to treat customers like friends
and family. The old golden rule thing. It's been around a lot longer than
Microsoft because it works. It works in business and personal life.

For instance, all it would really take to shake Microsoft is a Linux distro
willing to take a fresh look at how they are blowing things and make a
couple of key corrections. Heck, I'd help 'em do it. Not because I hate
Microsoft, but because competition is good for consumers - it even makes
companies stronger and spurs innovation.

>
I would point out that the developers are not MS's customers, the large
corporations are. However, they will not succeed as well w/o our
cooperation, and they know it, because developers help drive the business.

You are right. Although big corporations are the main targets, the
developers influence the big corporations' IT decisions. So, you'd think
their flagship development studio would work on their flagship OS, wouldn't
you?

>

>I would encourage you to dscard McAfee and try NOD32 (www.eset.com). It
has a smaller footprint, scans faster and scored better than any other
protection application (including Norton, McAfee and Trend Micro) in
independent testing by Virus Bulletin (http://www.virusbtn.com/index).

I'll check it out; I definitely need to do something different. I want
something that will scan my e-mail, and let me scan my drives when I want
to. I don't want something (McAfee and Norton) that scans every single
document every time I open it. I turned ActiveScanning off, and McAfee
puts up messages about how my system isn't protected every time I reboot,
or standby and come back. It's really, really annoying. But when I open a
solution with 80 classes and a bunch of forms, I don't need all of them
to be virus-scanned. I *know* where they've been. ;-)

So will this product you've recommended plug into Outlook and scan my
e-mails? Does it do active scanning? I appreciate the information. I've
about had it with the big ones.

It does scan your email (in and out). It does do active scanning (which can
be disabled without annoying messages resulting from that decision), but it
is so fast that I haven't even noticed it at work (except when it finds a
virus in the incoming email and alerts me).

The big ones (especially Norton) fell for the whole .Net thing and screwed
up their products. They are bloated and slow.

Even Microsoft doesn't use .Net to do most of its internal coding (if they
did - it would probably be compatible with Vista). So, why do we?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--
Jim Hubbard

"The democracy will cease to exist when
you take away from those who are willing
to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson

[RobinS]

Well, I can see it now. Can you?

Comments below...

Robin S.

"smerf" <sm***@shroom.c omwrote in message
news:FT******** **********@bign ews5.bellsouth. net...

Well, friends, I am attempting this post from Bellsouth's newsgroup
servers on my old XP machine. Let's see if it works from here (as
Bellsouth servers currently reject ALL newsgroup posts from Windows Mail
on Vista).

(5th try at posting)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:df******** *************** *******@comcast .com...

>>
"Jim Hubbard" <ji*@privateadd ress.netwrote in message
news:CB******* *************** ************@mi crosoft.com...

>>The Mac situation really does suck - thats why there are so few Mac
users (<3% of all computer users).

<snip>

>>MS does what they want because they're the only game in town.
Microsoft basically has no boundaries. There is nobody ready to eat
their lunch if they screw up. So there is a tendency (which is also
human nature btw) to get away with as much as you can.

I think the quote is "It's easier to beg forgiveness than it is to ask
permission."

Since when have you heard Microsoft beg anyone's forgiveness? It's more
like "Here, we did this. Now shut up and use it."

Well, yeah, you're right about that. Although it's more like "Here, we did
this, it's going to make your life better. Really. <wolfish grinTrust us.
</wolfish grin>

<snip Vista/Netscape stuff and iPod stuff>

Businesses don't buy cute - at least not the ones that I service. And
home
users usually have crappy PCs (like the cheapo Dell special of the week)
that barely run as is - they can forget running Vista unless they buy a
new
PC, and most of them won't fork over the cash for that.

Businesses may not buy "cute", but they do buy when the marketing is good,
and it convinces them that something will help them do X. Even if they
never needed to do X before, they will suddenly feel like they need to do
X.

Most people probably won't care about Vista on a personal machine, but some
will want the latest and greatest. I don't think it's enough to push the
hardware market, but apparently everyone else thinks so, because they were
worried about the impact that Vista's delay would have on people buying new
computers -- apparently they thought people would wait and buy computer
*after* Christmas to get Vista installed on them.

What cracked me up was Dell, etc., giving away upgrade coupons for Vista
with computers purchased before Vista was available to Dell. How many
general users do you know who are going to upgrade to Vista themselves?

For the most part, when I mention Vista to anyone, they kinda shrug and
say
XP is working just fine for them. I agree with them too. If it ain't
broke
don't fix it.

I don't think it will take off until there are more apps written to work
for Vista, although I do think it will succeed in the business area because
of the extra security precautions.

<snip>

That brings up the original question in this thread.....if Microsoft knew
aout the upcoming changes AND they were even writing the OS, why the heck
isn't VS2005 compatible? It's incredible...

Yeah, that *is* sort of hard to take. I think SQLServer2005 has some issues
as well. I could envision some kind of turf war, with the VS guys going,
"Hey, our stuff works, fix *yours*!" and the Vista guys responding in the
same way. You'd think some upper-level manager would step in if that was
the case.

But from what I've heard, VisualStudio200 5 *does* work with Vista. You have
to install SP-1 for VS2005, and I think there's a specific Vista patch as
well. People have reported that they have it working fine.

>>

>>Microsoft's goal is to maximize revenue, not serve its customers.

Duh. Welcome to the corporate world. The purpose of any public
corporation is to make money for its shareholders. Period. <snip>

People *are* suckers for "shiny" stuff - even if there is no other
benefit
(sometimes even if there is less).

But, I have always found it more profitable to treat customers like
friends
and family. The old golden rule thing. It's been around a lot longer
than
Microsoft because it works. It works in business and personal life.

Well, yeah, you're not responding to shareholders.

>I would point out that the developers are not MS's customers, the large
corporations are. However, they will not succeed as well w/o our
cooperation, and they know it, because developers help drive the
business.

You are right. Although big corporations are the main targets, the
developers influence the big corporations' IT decisions. So, you'd think
their flagship development studio would work on their flagship OS,
wouldn't
you?

Responded to this above.

<snip / NOD32 http://www.eset.com >

It does scan your email (in and out). It does do active scanning (which
can
be disabled without annoying messages resulting from that decision), but
it
is so fast that I haven't even noticed it at work (except when it finds a
virus in the incoming email and alerts me).

I'll try it out. I deinstalled McAfee, and am happy to report that my
Visual Studio projects are opening up much quicker. That's really annoying,
because I had disabled active scanning in McAfee, and it shouldn't have had
any impact on my opening of documents.

The big ones (especially Norton) fell for the whole .Net thing and
screwed
up their products. They are bloated and slow.
Even Microsoft doesn't use .Net to do most of its internal coding (if
they
did - it would probably be compatible with Vista). So, why do we?

Because companies pay us to,and it's fun. :-)

Robin S.
Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.

[Jim Hubbard]

Yes, I can - but only via the Bellsouth newsgroups where I posted it. I do
not see it or your reply above posted via Windows Mail (on Vista Ultimate 32
bit edition) in the Microsoft Communities newsgroup servers (that are
installed in Windows Mail by default on Vista Ultimate).

I have diligently looked through the settings in Windows Mail and have found
nothing that should be restricting these posts.

As of now, it seems to be a Microsoft Communities server issue. Whether it
is intentional or not, I cannot tell.

Why would it be intentional? Well, if people start talking about how to
make XP look and behave like Vista, that may have a negative effect on Vista
sales. It also may be a legal thing - protecting the "look and feel" of
Vista.

Nothing in this thread after the post (and including that post) mentioning
the links to the XP -Vista transformation packs shows up in the Microsoft
Communities newsgroups (whether posted from the Microsoft Communities
newsgroup servers or the Bellsouth newsgroup servers) - but it all shows up
in the Bellsouth newsgroups when posted from Bellsouth newsgroup servers.

Definitely strange.....

--
Jim Hubbard

"The democracy will cease to exist when
you take away from those who are willing
to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:Hf******** *************** *******@comcast .com...

Well, I can see it now. Can you?

Comments below...

Robin S.

"smerf" <sm***@shroom.c omwrote in message
news:FT******** **********@bign ews5.bellsouth. net...

>Well, friends, I am attempting this post from Bellsouth's newsgroup
servers on my old XP machine. Let's see if it works from here (as
Bellsouth servers currently reject ALL newsgroup posts from Windows Mail
on Vista).

(5th try at posting)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:df******* *************** ********@comcas t.com...

>>>
"Jim Hubbard" <ji*@privateadd ress.netwrote in message
news:CB****** *************** *************@m icrosoft.com...
The Mac situation really does suck - thats why there are so few Mac
users (<3% of all computer users).

<snip>

>>>MS does what they want because they're the only game in town.
Microsoft basically has no boundaries. There is nobody ready to eat
their lunch if they screw up. So there is a tendency (which is also
human nature btw) to get away with as much as you can.

I think the quote is "It's easier to beg forgiveness than it is to ask
permission. "

Since when have you heard Microsoft beg anyone's forgiveness? It's more
like "Here, we did this. Now shut up and use it."

Well, yeah, you're right about that. Although it's more like "Here, we did
this, it's going to make your life better. Really. <wolfish grinTrust
us. </wolfish grin>

<snip Vista/Netscape stuff and iPod stuff>

>Businesses don't buy cute - at least not the ones that I service. And
home
users usually have crappy PCs (like the cheapo Dell special of the week)
that barely run as is - they can forget running Vista unless they buy a
new
PC, and most of them won't fork over the cash for that.

Businesses may not buy "cute", but they do buy when the marketing is good,
and it convinces them that something will help them do X. Even if they
never needed to do X before, they will suddenly feel like they need to do
X.

Most people probably won't care about Vista on a personal machine, but
some will want the latest and greatest. I don't think it's enough to push
the hardware market, but apparently everyone else thinks so, because they
were worried about the impact that Vista's delay would have on people
buying new computers -- apparently they thought people would wait and buy
computer *after* Christmas to get Vista installed on them.

What cracked me up was Dell, etc., giving away upgrade coupons for Vista
with computers purchased before Vista was available to Dell. How many
general users do you know who are going to upgrade to Vista themselves?

>For the most part, when I mention Vista to anyone, they kinda shrug and
say
XP is working just fine for them. I agree with them too. If it ain't
broke
don't fix it.

I don't think it will take off until there are more apps written to work
for Vista, although I do think it will succeed in the business area
because of the extra security precautions.

<snip>

>That brings up the original question in this thread.....if Microsoft knew
aout the upcoming changes AND they were even writing the OS, why the heck
isn't VS2005 compatible? It's incredible...

Yeah, that *is* sort of hard to take. I think SQLServer2005 has some
issues as well. I could envision some kind of turf war, with the VS guys
going, "Hey, our stuff works, fix *yours*!" and the Vista guys responding
in the same way. You'd think some upper-level manager would step in if
that was the case.

But from what I've heard, VisualStudio200 5 *does* work with Vista. You
have to install SP-1 for VS2005, and I think there's a specific Vista
patch as well. People have reported that they have it working fine.

>>>
Microsoft' s goal is to maximize revenue, not serve its customers.

Duh. Welcome to the corporate world. The purpose of any public
corporation is to make money for its shareholders. Period. <snip>

People *are* suckers for "shiny" stuff - even if there is no other
benefit
(sometimes even if there is less).

But, I have always found it more profitable to treat customers like
friends
and family. The old golden rule thing. It's been around a lot longer
than
Microsoft because it works. It works in business and personal life.

Well, yeah, you're not responding to shareholders.

>>I would point out that the developers are not MS's customers, the large
corporation s are. However, they will not succeed as well w/o our
cooperation , and they know it, because developers help drive the
business.

You are right. Although big corporations are the main targets, the
developers influence the big corporations' IT decisions. So, you'd think
their flagship development studio would work on their flagship OS,
wouldn't
you?

Responded to this above.

<snip / NOD32 http://www.eset.com >

>It does scan your email (in and out). It does do active scanning (which
can
be disabled without annoying messages resulting from that decision), but
it
is so fast that I haven't even noticed it at work (except when it finds a
virus in the incoming email and alerts me).

I'll try it out. I deinstalled McAfee, and am happy to report that my
Visual Studio projects are opening up much quicker. That's really
annoying, because I had disabled active scanning in McAfee, and it
shouldn't have had any impact on my opening of documents.

>The big ones (especially Norton) fell for the whole .Net thing and
screwed
up their products. They are bloated and slow.
Even Microsoft doesn't use .Net to do most of its internal coding (if
they
did - it would probably be compatible with Vista). So, why do we?

Because companies pay us to,and it's fun. :-)

Robin S.
Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.

[RobinS]

I must admit, it's surreal. When you refer to the "Microsoft Communities
newsgroup servers", I assume you're talking about configuring your
newsreader to get the posts from news.microsoft. com?

Frankly, I'd feel a little paranoid if I were you. :-O

So I added news.microsoft. com to my newsreader (OE), and I see this in the
thread where most of our posts are:

(lots of other posts, then)
2/1/2007 1:35 a.m. Robin S. (both)
2/1/2007 6:57 p.m. Jim Hubbard (both)
2/2/2007 4:51 p.m. Robin S. (both)
2/3/2007 10:45 a.m. Jim Hubbard (both)
2/3/2007 6:54 p.m. Robin S. (both)
2/3/2007 9:41 p.m. Jim Hubbard (both)
(this is the one that says "its still not happening - i'll try and
reply directly to you)
2/3/2007 9:55 p.m. Jim Hubbard (both)
3/4/2007 11:25 p.m. smerf (future posted!) (not on microsoft)
(this is the one you couldn't post under your own name)
2/4/2007 9;21 a.m. Robin S (not on microsoft)
3/6/2007 10:53 p.m. Jim Hubbard (future posted!) (not on microsoft)

(insert Twilight Zone music here)

What's with the future posting? Can you give me tomorrow's lottery numbers?

Robin S.
--------------------------------------------
"Jim Hubbard" <Ji*@bellsouth. netwrote in message
news:vB******** **********@bign ews1.bellsouth. net...

Yes, I can - but only via the Bellsouth newsgroups where I posted it. I
do not see it or your reply above posted via Windows Mail (on Vista
Ultimate 32 bit edition) in the Microsoft Communities newsgroup servers
(that are installed in Windows Mail by default on Vista Ultimate).

I have diligently looked through the settings in Windows Mail and have
found nothing that should be restricting these posts.

As of now, it seems to be a Microsoft Communities server issue. Whether
it is intentional or not, I cannot tell.

Why would it be intentional? Well, if people start talking about how to
make XP look and behave like Vista, that may have a negative effect on
Vista sales. It also may be a legal thing - protecting the "look and
feel" of Vista.

Nothing in this thread after the post (and including that post)
mentioning the links to the XP -Vista transformation packs shows up in
the Microsoft Communities newsgroups (whether posted from the Microsoft
Communities newsgroup servers or the Bellsouth newsgroup servers) - but
it all shows up in the Bellsouth newsgroups when posted from Bellsouth
newsgroup servers.

Definitely strange.....

--
Jim Hubbard

"The democracy will cease to exist when
you take away from those who are willing
to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:Hf******** *************** *******@comcast .com...

>Well, I can see it now. Can you?

Comments below...

Robin S.

"smerf" <sm***@shroom.c omwrote in message
news:FT******* ***********@big news5.bellsouth .net...

>>Well, friends, I am attempting this post from Bellsouth's newsgroup
servers on my old XP machine. Let's see if it works from here (as
Bellsouth servers currently reject ALL newsgroup posts from Windows
Mail on Vista).

(5th try at posting)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:df****** *************** *********@comca st.com...

"Jim Hubbard" <ji*@privateadd ress.netwrote in message
news:CB***** *************** **************@ microsoft.com.. .
The Mac situation really does suck - thats why there are so few Mac
users (<3% of all computer users).

<snip>

MS does what they want because they're the only game in town.
Microsoft basically has no boundaries. There is nobody ready to eat
their lunch if they screw up. So there is a tendency (which is also
human nature btw) to get away with as much as you can.

I think the quote is "It's easier to beg forgiveness than it is to ask
permission ."

Since when have you heard Microsoft beg anyone's forgiveness? It's
more
like "Here, we did this. Now shut up and use it."

Well, yeah, you're right about that. Although it's more like "Here, we
did this, it's going to make your life better. Really. <wolfish grin>
Trust us. </wolfish grin>

<snip Vista/Netscape stuff and iPod stuff>

>>Businesses don't buy cute - at least not the ones that I service. And
home
users usually have crappy PCs (like the cheapo Dell special of the
week)
that barely run as is - they can forget running Vista unless they buy a
new
PC, and most of them won't fork over the cash for that.

Businesses may not buy "cute", but they do buy when the marketing is
good, and it convinces them that something will help them do X. Even if
they never needed to do X before, they will suddenly feel like they need
to do X.

Most people probably won't care about Vista on a personal machine, but
some will want the latest and greatest. I don't think it's enough to
push the hardware market, but apparently everyone else thinks so,
because they were worried about the impact that Vista's delay would have
on people buying new computers -- apparently they thought people would
wait and buy computer *after* Christmas to get Vista installed on them.

What cracked me up was Dell, etc., giving away upgrade coupons for Vista
with computers purchased before Vista was available to Dell. How many
general users do you know who are going to upgrade to Vista themselves?

>>For the most part, when I mention Vista to anyone, they kinda shrug and
say
XP is working just fine for them. I agree with them too. If it ain't
broke
don't fix it.

I don't think it will take off until there are more apps written to work
for Vista, although I do think it will succeed in the business area
because of the extra security precautions.

<snip>

>>That brings up the original question in this thread.....if Microsoft
knew
aout the upcoming changes AND they were even writing the OS, why the
heck
isn't VS2005 compatible? It's incredible...

Yeah, that *is* sort of hard to take. I think SQLServer2005 has some
issues as well. I could envision some kind of turf war, with the VS guys
going, "Hey, our stuff works, fix *yours*!" and the Vista guys
responding in the same way. You'd think some upper-level manager would
step in if that was the case.

But from what I've heard, VisualStudio200 5 *does* work with Vista. You
have to install SP-1 for VS2005, and I think there's a specific Vista
patch as well. People have reported that they have it working fine.

>>>>
Microsoft 's goal is to maximize revenue, not serve its customers.

Duh. Welcome to the corporate world. The purpose of any public
corporatio n is to make money for its shareholders. Period. <snip>

People *are* suckers for "shiny" stuff - even if there is no other
benefit
(sometimes even if there is less).

But, I have always found it more profitable to treat customers like
friends
and family. The old golden rule thing. It's been around a lot longer
than
Microsoft because it works. It works in business and personal life.

Well, yeah, you're not responding to shareholders.

>>>I would point out that the developers are not MS's customers, the
large corporations are. However, they will not succeed as well w/o our
cooperatio n, and they know it, because developers help drive the
business.

You are right. Although big corporations are the main targets, the
developers influence the big corporations' IT decisions. So, you'd
think
their flagship development studio would work on their flagship OS,
wouldn't
you?

Responded to this above.

<snip / NOD32 http://www.eset.com >

>>It does scan your email (in and out). It does do active scanning
(which can
be disabled without annoying messages resulting from that decision),
but it
is so fast that I haven't even noticed it at work (except when it finds
a
virus in the incoming email and alerts me).

I'll try it out. I deinstalled McAfee, and am happy to report that my
Visual Studio projects are opening up much quicker. That's really
annoying, because I had disabled active scanning in McAfee, and it
shouldn't have had any impact on my opening of documents.

>>The big ones (especially Norton) fell for the whole .Net thing and
screwed
up their products. They are bloated and slow.
Even Microsoft doesn't use .Net to do most of its internal coding (if
they
did - it would probably be compatible with Vista). So, why do we?

Because companies pay us to,and it's fun. :-)

Robin S.
Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.

[Jim Hubbard]

"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:he******** *************** *******@comcast .com...

>I must admit, it's surreal. When you refer to the "Microsoft Communities
newsgroup servers", I assume you're talking about configuring your
newsreader to get the posts from news.microsoft. com?

No. Windows Mail (in Vista, click Start Menu and look for "Windows Mail")
has msnews.microsof t.com as the newsgroup servers. You have to use a
Microsoft Live (the old MS "Passport") account to sign in to the servers.

>
Frankly, I'd feel a little paranoid if I were you. :-O

Me? Paranoid?

Look, just because I think Microsoft is censoring my posts, that doesn't
mean they're not.

Pay careful attention to the Help/About splash screen in Windows Mail. It
says that Vista's UI is covered by its legal crap. Maybe that's why they
censored anything that gives the same look, feel and functionality - even if
its on their last OS.

>
So I added news.microsoft. com to my newsreader (OE), and I see this in the
thread where most of our posts are:

(lots of other posts, then)
2/1/2007 1:35 a.m. Robin S. (both)
2/1/2007 6:57 p.m. Jim Hubbard (both)
2/2/2007 4:51 p.m. Robin S. (both)
2/3/2007 10:45 a.m. Jim Hubbard (both)
2/3/2007 6:54 p.m. Robin S. (both)
2/3/2007 9:41 p.m. Jim Hubbard (both)
(this is the one that says "its still not happening - i'll try and
reply directly to you)
2/3/2007 9:55 p.m. Jim Hubbard (both)
3/4/2007 11:25 p.m. smerf (future posted!) (not on microsoft)
(this is the one you couldn't post under your own name)
2/4/2007 9;21 a.m. Robin S (not on microsoft)
3/6/2007 10:53 p.m. Jim Hubbard (future posted!) (not on microsoft)

(insert Twilight Zone music here)

What's with the future posting? Can you give me tomorrow's lottery
numbers?

The future posts were because I posted from my XP machine and had been
messing around with the calendar. I didn't make that stupid mistake on the
Vista PC and I've fixed it on my XP PC.

As far as tomorrows lottery numbers go - I can do even better. I can tell
you who wins - the lottery commission.

--
Jim Hubbard

"The democracy will cease to exist when
you take away from those who are willing
to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson

>
Robin S.
--------------------------------------------
"Jim Hubbard" <Ji*@bellsouth. netwrote in message
news:vB******** **********@bign ews1.bellsouth. net...

>Yes, I can - but only via the Bellsouth newsgroups where I posted it. I
do not see it or your reply above posted via Windows Mail (on Vista
Ultimate 32 bit edition) in the Microsoft Communities newsgroup servers
(that are installed in Windows Mail by default on Vista Ultimate).

I have diligently looked through the settings in Windows Mail and have
found nothing that should be restricting these posts.

As of now, it seems to be a Microsoft Communities server issue. Whether
it is intentional or not, I cannot tell.

Why would it be intentional? Well, if people start talking about how to
make XP look and behave like Vista, that may have a negative effect on
Vista sales. It also may be a legal thing - protecting the "look and
feel" of Vista.

Nothing in this thread after the post (and including that post)
mentioning the links to the XP -Vista transformation packs shows up in
the Microsoft Communities newsgroups (whether posted from the Microsoft
Communities newsgroup servers or the Bellsouth newsgroup servers) - but
it all shows up in the Bellsouth newsgroups when posted from Bellsouth
newsgroup servers.

Definitely strange.....

--
Jim Hubbard

"The democracy will cease to exist when
you take away from those who are willing
to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:Hf******* *************** ********@comcas t.com...

>>Well, I can see it now. Can you?

Comments below...

Robin S.

"smerf" <sm***@shroom.c omwrote in message
news:FT****** ************@bi gnews5.bellsout h.net...
Well, friends, I am attempting this post from Bellsouth's newsgroup
servers on my old XP machine. Let's see if it works from here (as
Bellsouth servers currently reject ALL newsgroup posts from Windows
Mail on Vista).

(5th try at posting)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:df***** *************** **********@comc ast.com...
>
"Jim Hubbard" <ji*@privateadd ress.netwrote in message
news:CB**** *************** *************** @microsoft.com. ..
>The Mac situation really does suck - thats why there are so few Mac
>users (<3% of all computer users).

<snip>

>MS does what they want because they're the only game in town.
>Microsof t basically has no boundaries. There is nobody ready to eat
>their lunch if they screw up. So there is a tendency (which is also
>human nature btw) to get away with as much as you can.
>
I think the quote is "It's easier to beg forgiveness than it is to ask
permission. "

Since when have you heard Microsoft beg anyone's forgiveness? It's
more
like "Here, we did this. Now shut up and use it."
Well, yeah, you're right about that. Although it's more like "Here, we
did this, it's going to make your life better. Really. <wolfish grin>
Trust us. </wolfish grin>

<snip Vista/Netscape stuff and iPod stuff>

Businesses don't buy cute - at least not the ones that I service. And
home
users usually have crappy PCs (like the cheapo Dell special of the
week)
that barely run as is - they can forget running Vista unless they buy a
new
PC, and most of them won't fork over the cash for that.

Businesses may not buy "cute", but they do buy when the marketing is
good, and it convinces them that something will help them do X. Even if
they never needed to do X before, they will suddenly feel like they need
to do X.

Most people probably won't care about Vista on a personal machine, but
some will want the latest and greatest. I don't think it's enough to
push the hardware market, but apparently everyone else thinks so,
because they were worried about the impact that Vista's delay would have
on people buying new computers -- apparently they thought people would
wait and buy computer *after* Christmas to get Vista installed on them.

What cracked me up was Dell, etc., giving away upgrade coupons for Vista
with computers purchased before Vista was available to Dell. How many
general users do you know who are going to upgrade to Vista themselves?

For the most part, when I mention Vista to anyone, they kinda shrug and
say
XP is working just fine for them. I agree with them too. If it ain't
broke
don't fix it.

I don't think it will take off until there are more apps written to work
for Vista, although I do think it will succeed in the business area
because of the extra security precautions.

<snip>
That brings up the original question in this thread.....if Microsoft
knew
aout the upcoming changes AND they were even writing the OS, why the
heck
isn't VS2005 compatible? It's incredible...

Yeah, that *is* sort of hard to take. I think SQLServer2005 has some
issues as well. I could envision some kind of turf war, with the VS guys
going, "Hey, our stuff works, fix *yours*!" and the Vista guys
responding in the same way. You'd think some upper-level manager would
step in if that was the case.

But from what I've heard, VisualStudio200 5 *does* work with Vista. You
have to install SP-1 for VS2005, and I think there's a specific Vista
patch as well. People have reported that they have it working fine.

>
>Microsoft' s goal is to maximize revenue, not serve its customers.
>
Duh. Welcome to the corporate world. The purpose of any public
corporati on is to make money for its shareholders. Period. <snip>

People *are* suckers for "shiny" stuff - even if there is no other
benefit
(sometimes even if there is less).

But, I have always found it more profitable to treat customers like
friends
and family. The old golden rule thing. It's been around a lot longer
than
Microsoft because it works. It works in business and personal life.

Well, yeah, you're not responding to shareholders.

I would point out that the developers are not MS's customers, the
large corporations are. However, they will not succeed as well w/o our
cooperation , and they know it, because developers help drive the
business.

You are right. Although big corporations are the main targets, the
developers influence the big corporations' IT decisions. So, you'd
think
their flagship development studio would work on their flagship OS,
wouldn't
you?

Responded to this above.

<snip / NOD32 http://www.eset.com >
It does scan your email (in and out). It does do active scanning
(which can
be disabled without annoying messages resulting from that decision),
but it
is so fast that I haven't even noticed it at work (except when it finds
a
virus in the incoming email and alerts me).

I'll try it out. I deinstalled McAfee, and am happy to report that my
Visual Studio projects are opening up much quicker. That's really
annoying, because I had disabled active scanning in McAfee, and it
shouldn't have had any impact on my opening of documents.

The big ones (especially Norton) fell for the whole .Net thing and
screwed
up their products. They are bloated and slow.
Even Microsoft doesn't use .Net to do most of its internal coding (if
they
did - it would probably be compatible with Vista). So, why do we?

Because companies pay us to,and it's fun. :-)

Robin S.
Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.

[RobinS]

Comments below...

"Jim Hubbard" <Ji*@bellsouth. netwrote in message
news:6D******** *******@bignews 8.bellsouth.net ...

"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:he******** *************** *******@comcast .com...

>>I must admit, it's surreal. When you refer to the "Microsoft Communities
newsgroup servers", I assume you're talking about configuring your
newsreader to get the posts from news.microsoft. com?

No. Windows Mail (in Vista, click Start Menu and look for "Windows
Mail") has msnews.microsof t.com as the newsgroup servers. You have to
use a Microsoft Live (the old MS "Passport") account to sign in to the
servers.

****Is Windows Mail any better than OE? Or is it the same thing,
Vista-ized?

>Frankly, I'd feel a little paranoid if I were you. :-O

Me? Paranoid?

Look, just because I think Microsoft is censoring my posts, that doesn't
mean they're not.

****Exactly my point!

Pay careful attention to the Help/About splash screen in Windows Mail.
It says that Vista's UI is covered by its legal crap. Maybe that's why
they censored anything that gives the same look, feel and functionality -
even if its on their last OS.

****I haven't installed Vista yet. I don't think it will run on my
2-year-old laptop. I'm going to buy a new laptop and then repurpose the old
one as a server. At least, that's my theory.

<snip>posthisto ry</snip>

>What's with the future posting? Can you give me tomorrow's lottery
numbers?

The future posts were because I posted from my XP machine and had been
messing around with the calendar. I didn't make that stupid mistake on
the Vista PC and I've fixed it on my XP PC.

As far as tomorrows lottery numbers go - I can do even better. I can
tell you who wins - the lottery commission.

Darn. That's not a lot of help!

Robin S.
Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.