Hi,
I am intersted in trying to reduce the cost of C# development, by
reducing the number of lines of code. In my opinion, as a business
developer, the biggest opportunity to reduce the number of lines of
code is in database access.
My reality is that I use relational databases a lot. Other constructs,
such as flat files, Web Services, arrays, etc I don't use very much.
My data is stored on relational databases. I think that's pretty
common, nowadays.
I have been using ADO.NET and was wondering about the future.
Will C# support truly embedded SQL in the future? For example, in
PowerBuilder, since 1992, you could code as follows:
Long ll_count
String ls_last_name
SELECT Count(*), max(last_name) INTO :ll_count, :ls_last_name USING
TXN1;
IF TXN1.SQLCODE<>0 THEN ...
In C#, it seems to take many more lines of code to do the same thing.
Further, in PowerBuilder, the above statement works for any relational
database. All you have to do is change the connection parameters.
It seems that in C#, you have to contend with named parameters for SQL
Server and Oracle, vs. positional parameters for ODBC and OLE-DB.
Further, you have to explicitly create every single parameter in C#,
while in the example above, the parameters are created for you, using
datatypes which match the datatypes you use. That is a lot simpler.
Also, in C#, you are forced to use multiple TRY-CATCH constructs after
each SQL statement is executed. And, the exceptions which you catch
are different for different databases. That's an awful lot of code.
PowerBuilder has TRY-CATCH too, but it is generally not used for
relational database access.
And, let's talk cursors. In PowerBuilder, COBOL, and a few other
languages, such as PL*SQL, you can explicitly declare, open, fetch, and
close cursors. Wouldn't it be great if you could do that in C#?
Cursors give you low-level control. They are simple. And, if you
fetch too much data, you can stop.
In PowerBuilder and COBOL, you can even 'fetch in batches'. This means
that instead of getting one row at a time from the database, you
actually grab, say, 1000 rows at a time. Fetching in batches can
improve runtimes by 20 to 1, if your database is over a Wide-Area
Network, or by 4 to 1 if it is on a Local Area Network, in my
experience.
I think Embedded SQL makes sense because maybe, just maybe, it would
not become obsolete, as have a few other technologies (RDO, DAO, ADO,
etc).
Also, I think Embedded SQL is inherently much simpler than all the
above.
For example, a severe performance problem in a classic ASP application
was impacting one of my customers. The ASP app used ADO. I have read
many books about ADO, but not a one of them explained to me how a
"keyset" worked. It turns out that a keyset reads *all* the keys from
your SQL table, and puts them into memory. Well, when your table has 3
million rows, this becomes untenable. But then, how many people know
about this fact?
The reality is that RDO, DAO, ADO and ADO.NET all do things "behind the
scenes" which make performance tuning difficult. You have to capture
the actual SQL they send to the database first, then tune.
I don't want to need ADO to do that for me. Wouldn't you rather just
have real embedded SQL?
Opinions?
VictorReinhart
25  11144 
DLinq in C# 3.0 is probably what you are after.
That said, most applications make use of stored
procedures versus sql. You wind up sending less
across the network when making database calls.
Proc compilation also offers performance gains
although even that is being minimized by more
efficient database processing of dynamic sql.
The other thing you need to keep in mind
is that some databases support features
not supported by other platforms. A
good example of this is SQL Server 2005
support for the .NET CLR from within
user-defined functions.
It isn't just a simple sql world anymore...
--
Robbe Morris - 2004/2005 Microsoft MVP C# http://www.eggheadcafe.com/forums/merit.asp
"VictorReinhart " <vi************ **@phs.com> wrote in message
news:11******** *************@g 14g2000cwa.goog legroups.com... Hi,
I am intersted in trying to reduce the cost of C# development, by
reducing the number of lines of code. In my opinion, as a business
developer, the biggest opportunity to reduce the number of lines of
code is in database access.
My reality is that I use relational databases a lot. Other constructs,
such as flat files, Web Services, arrays, etc I don't use very much.
My data is stored on relational databases. I think that's pretty
common, nowadays.
I have been using ADO.NET and was wondering about the future.
Will C# support truly embedded SQL in the future? For example, in
PowerBuilder, since 1992, you could code as follows:
Long ll_count
String ls_last_name
SELECT Count(*), max(last_name) INTO :ll_count, :ls_last_name USING
TXN1;
IF TXN1.SQLCODE<>0 THEN ...
In C#, it seems to take many more lines of code to do the same thing.
Further, in PowerBuilder, the above statement works for any relational
database. All you have to do is change the connection parameters.
It seems that in C#, you have to contend with named parameters for SQL
Server and Oracle, vs. positional parameters for ODBC and OLE-DB.
Further, you have to explicitly create every single parameter in C#,
while in the example above, the parameters are created for you, using
datatypes which match the datatypes you use. That is a lot simpler.
Also, in C#, you are forced to use multiple TRY-CATCH constructs after
each SQL statement is executed. And, the exceptions which you catch
are different for different databases. That's an awful lot of code.
PowerBuilder has TRY-CATCH too, but it is generally not used for
relational database access.
And, let's talk cursors. In PowerBuilder, COBOL, and a few other
languages, such as PL*SQL, you can explicitly declare, open, fetch, and
close cursors. Wouldn't it be great if you could do that in C#?
Cursors give you low-level control. They are simple. And, if you
fetch too much data, you can stop.
In PowerBuilder and COBOL, you can even 'fetch in batches'. This means
that instead of getting one row at a time from the database, you
actually grab, say, 1000 rows at a time. Fetching in batches can
improve runtimes by 20 to 1, if your database is over a Wide-Area
Network, or by 4 to 1 if it is on a Local Area Network, in my
experience.
I think Embedded SQL makes sense because maybe, just maybe, it would
not become obsolete, as have a few other technologies (RDO, DAO, ADO,
etc).
Also, I think Embedded SQL is inherently much simpler than all the
above.
For example, a severe performance problem in a classic ASP application
was impacting one of my customers. The ASP app used ADO. I have read
many books about ADO, but not a one of them explained to me how a
"keyset" worked. It turns out that a keyset reads *all* the keys from
your SQL table, and puts them into memory. Well, when your table has 3
million rows, this becomes untenable. But then, how many people know
about this fact?
The reality is that RDO, DAO, ADO and ADO.NET all do things "behind the
scenes" which make performance tuning difficult. You have to capture
the actual SQL they send to the database first, then tune.
I don't want to need ADO to do that for me. Wouldn't you rather just
have real embedded SQL?
Opinions?
VictorReinhart
VictorReinhart wrote: I have been using ADO.NET and was wondering about the future.
Will C# support truly embedded SQL in the future? http://msdn.microsoft.com/vcsharp/future/default.aspx
Have a look at the proposed C# 3.0 language specs and LINQ at the above
link.
Max
How do you equate development costs with the number of lines of code? Are
your developers getting paid by the line?
Reducing development costs come more in architecture than the actual writing
of the code. If the classes are designed right, than maintenance can be
reduced. There is more than just the initial time to develop an app. There
is the cost of sustaining it and fixing bugs.
For instance, if is fully possible to write a large app with only one class.
Each operation might be a method and they could be spaghetti together from
the main method. This takes less code than designing many classes to
support the functionality.
"VictorReinhart " <vi************ **@phs.com> wrote in message
news:11******** *************@g 14g2000cwa.goog legroups.com... Hi,
I am intersted in trying to reduce the cost of C# development, by
reducing the number of lines of code. In my opinion, as a business
developer, the biggest opportunity to reduce the number of lines of
code is in database access.
My reality is that I use relational databases a lot. Other constructs,
such as flat files, Web Services, arrays, etc I don't use very much.
My data is stored on relational databases. I think that's pretty
common, nowadays.
I have been using ADO.NET and was wondering about the future.
Will C# support truly embedded SQL in the future? For example, in
PowerBuilder, since 1992, you could code as follows:
Long ll_count
String ls_last_name
SELECT Count(*), max(last_name) INTO :ll_count, :ls_last_name USING
TXN1;
IF TXN1.SQLCODE<>0 THEN ...
In C#, it seems to take many more lines of code to do the same thing.
Further, in PowerBuilder, the above statement works for any relational
database. All you have to do is change the connection parameters.
It seems that in C#, you have to contend with named parameters for SQL
Server and Oracle, vs. positional parameters for ODBC and OLE-DB.
Further, you have to explicitly create every single parameter in C#,
while in the example above, the parameters are created for you, using
datatypes which match the datatypes you use. That is a lot simpler.
Also, in C#, you are forced to use multiple TRY-CATCH constructs after
each SQL statement is executed. And, the exceptions which you catch
are different for different databases. That's an awful lot of code.
PowerBuilder has TRY-CATCH too, but it is generally not used for
relational database access.
And, let's talk cursors. In PowerBuilder, COBOL, and a few other
languages, such as PL*SQL, you can explicitly declare, open, fetch, and
close cursors. Wouldn't it be great if you could do that in C#?
Cursors give you low-level control. They are simple. And, if you
fetch too much data, you can stop.
In PowerBuilder and COBOL, you can even 'fetch in batches'. This means
that instead of getting one row at a time from the database, you
actually grab, say, 1000 rows at a time. Fetching in batches can
improve runtimes by 20 to 1, if your database is over a Wide-Area
Network, or by 4 to 1 if it is on a Local Area Network, in my
experience.
I think Embedded SQL makes sense because maybe, just maybe, it would
not become obsolete, as have a few other technologies (RDO, DAO, ADO,
etc).
Also, I think Embedded SQL is inherently much simpler than all the
above.
For example, a severe performance problem in a classic ASP application
was impacting one of my customers. The ASP app used ADO. I have read
many books about ADO, but not a one of them explained to me how a
"keyset" worked. It turns out that a keyset reads *all* the keys from
your SQL table, and puts them into memory. Well, when your table has 3
million rows, this becomes untenable. But then, how many people know
about this fact?
The reality is that RDO, DAO, ADO and ADO.NET all do things "behind the
scenes" which make performance tuning difficult. You have to capture
the actual SQL they send to the database first, then tune.
I don't want to need ADO to do that for me. Wouldn't you rather just
have real embedded SQL?
Opinions?
VictorReinhart
"VictorReinhart " <vi************ **@phs.com> wrote in message
news:11******** *************@g 14g2000cwa.goog legroups.com... Hi,
I am intersted in trying to reduce the cost of C# development, by
reducing the number of lines of code. In my opinion, as a business
developer, the biggest opportunity to reduce the number of lines of
code is in database access.
My reality is that I use relational databases a lot. Other constructs,
such as flat files, Web Services, arrays, etc I don't use very much.
My data is stored on relational databases. I think that's pretty
common, nowadays.
I have been using ADO.NET and was wondering about the future.
Will C# support truly embedded SQL in the future? For example, in
PowerBuilder, since 1992, you could code as follows:
Static Embedded SQL: No. DataSets and TableAdapters, or Code Generators or
ORM frameworks give you most of the benefits of embedded SQL without having
to have something official in the languages or framework.
For the future, a whole set of query constructs are being added to the .NET
languages which will allow simple and elegant expression of queries in .NET
laguages against relational, XML and object data sources. This project is
called LINQ: http://msdn.microsoft.com/netframewo...q/default.aspx
A simple query against a relational source will look something like:
// establish a query context over ADO.NET sql connection
DataContext context = new DataContext(
"Initial Catalog=petdb;I ntegrated Security=sspi") ;
// grab variables that represent the remote tables that
// correspond to the Person and Order CLR types
Table<Person> custs = context.GetTabl e<Person>();
Table<Order> orders = context.GetTabl e<Order>();
// build the query
var query = from c in custs, o in orders
where o.Customer == c.Name
select new {
c.Name,
o.OrderID,
o.Amount,
c.Age
};
// execute the query
foreach (var item in query)
Console.WriteLi ne("{0} {1} {2} {3}",
item.Name, item.OrderID,
item.Amount, item.Age);
David
<<DLinq in C# 3.0 is probably what you are after. >>
I read the MSDN article: "The LINQ Project", September 2005. Thank
you for the suggestion, but It is not what I'm after. While the intent
is noble, I would rather have embedded SQL, for all the reasons above.
But if that was not enough, here are more:
a) Lack of Control over the SQL
What SQL does DLinq generate?
How to tell?
My experience is that when tuning problems happen, you have to see
and modify the SQL. For example, in SQL Server, you might need to add
the "nolock" keyword. How does one do this using DLinq? For Oracle,
how would one create a table which is like another table, and specify a
tablespace? Example:
create table hed_prov_az tablespace zhedhead
as select * from hed_prov_addres s where 1=2;
I don't know about your DBA's, but mine require me to specify a
tablespace when I create a table.
b) TRY-CATCH.
I rarely see anything in dot net which is a full example, with a
real TRY-CATCH. The way the code is written in the examples, your
application will crash with the first exception.
c) Which databases does it or will it support?
Embedded SQL should work for all databases.
d) It would be helpful to include examples using NULL Values.
Null values are common for things like termination dates. Yet, you
rarely see any examples.
<<most applications make use of stored procedures versus sql>>
I don't know of very many which use sp's. And sp's are a bad fit for
the application which targets multiple databases. We would rather use
SQL, thank you very much, instead of writing the same stored procedures
in three languages.
<<You wind up sending less across the network when making database
calls. >>
Maybe a trivial savings there, but development costs are a lot higher.
The reality is, SQL is here to stay, and is extremely useful.
Sometimes, you have to add hints to make it work, sometimes you need
database-specific code. But, in my opinion, what we really don't need
is software which hides the SQL.
I vote for embedded SQL.
VictorReinhart
<<It isn't just a simple sql world anymore... >>
That is why you can use Embedded SQL to:
1) Execute Stored Procedures which do not return result sets
2) Execute Stored Procedures which return result sets
3) Execute DDL (eg, Create Tables, Create Views)
Victor Reinhart
You can definitely write the code yourself and invoke Sql statements. I am
not quite sure about your relationship between cost and the number of lines.
Really, what you are talking about is imply hiding the access to the
database behind an access layer, so you might have something like
DAL.GetCustomer ( int id ) and it would return a customer object. this would
essentially be the client version of a stored procedure that can cross
databases.
"VictorReinhart " <vi************ **@phs.com> wrote in message
news:11******** **************@ g49g2000cwa.goo glegroups.com.. . <<DLinq in C# 3.0 is probably what you are after. >>
I read the MSDN article: "The LINQ Project", September 2005. Thank
you for the suggestion, but It is not what I'm after. While the intent
is noble, I would rather have embedded SQL, for all the reasons above.
But if that was not enough, here are more:
a) Lack of Control over the SQL
What SQL does DLinq generate?
How to tell?
My experience is that when tuning problems happen, you have to see
and modify the SQL. For example, in SQL Server, you might need to add
the "nolock" keyword. How does one do this using DLinq? For Oracle,
how would one create a table which is like another table, and specify a
tablespace? Example:
create table hed_prov_az tablespace zhedhead
as select * from hed_prov_addres s where 1=2;
I don't know about your DBA's, but mine require me to specify a
tablespace when I create a table.
b) TRY-CATCH.
I rarely see anything in dot net which is a full example, with a
real TRY-CATCH. The way the code is written in the examples, your
application will crash with the first exception.
c) Which databases does it or will it support?
Embedded SQL should work for all databases.
d) It would be helpful to include examples using NULL Values.
Null values are common for things like termination dates. Yet, you
rarely see any examples.
<<most applications make use of stored procedures versus sql>>
I don't know of very many which use sp's. And sp's are a bad fit for
the application which targets multiple databases. We would rather use
SQL, thank you very much, instead of writing the same stored procedures
in three languages.
<<You wind up sending less across the network when making database
calls. >>
Maybe a trivial savings there, but development costs are a lot higher.
The reality is, SQL is here to stay, and is extremely useful.
Sometimes, you have to add hints to make it work, sometimes you need
database-specific code. But, in my opinion, what we really don't need
is software which hides the SQL.
I vote for embedded SQL.
VictorReinhart
<<How do you equate development costs with the number of lines of
code?>>
There isn't an exact correlation. However, there is a gross
correlation. That is why we use high-level languages instead of
low-level languages, such as assembler. In fact, in my opinion, it is
best to use the highest level language possible as much as possible,
then only "drop-down" to other languages when absolutely necessary.
<<Are your developers getting paid by the line? >>
Of course not. But, we want to create the most value we can in a given
amount of time. It takes more time to write boiler-plate code than to
not write it. It takes more time to debug boiler-plate code. It takes
more time to read boiler-plate code. When the code is concise, time
and money are saved.
<<There is more than just the initial time to develop an app.>>
That is true, but time wasted is money wasted. The reality is that
money wasted developing an application can kill it before it is
completed. This is a common problem.
<<For instance, it is fully possible to write a large app with only one
class>>
I don't understand. I have about 200 web application pages to create.
How is that done using only one class?
<<You can definitely write the code yourself and invoke Sql statements.
With some difficulty, yes. However, the point is that truly embedded
SQL would make this much, much easier. For example, while I could
build my own SQL string and submit it, what happens if my key has a
special character, such as a single quote? The answer is that by
default, it would fail.
Unfortunately, it's at least 2 lines of code just to create a parameter
in C#. Then, you have to make sure to make the proper kind of
parameter (a named parameter or a positional parameter). Then, you
have to reference the parameter properly in the SQL statement. It's
way more work than in other languages, such as PowerBuilder.
My other alternative is to write my own function which I have to call
for every single data value which goes into my SQL. It might take that
key with the single quote and double-up the single quote or escape it,
depending upon the database. That's not very productive either.
With PowerBuilder, I don't have to worry about these complexities.
Since it supports embedded SQL, this works, even if emp_name = "O'Hara"
Select salary_wkly INTO :ldc_salary from emp_master where emp_name =
:ls_name;
Wow, one line of code. Easy to understand. Easy to write. Easy to
debug. And, I know exactly what is sent to the database. I can copy
and paste this SQL statement into a query tool and unit test it. That
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