Which IDE is better for C#, Borland C#Builder or VS.net 2003?

[smartwolf agassi via DotNetMonster.com]

I'm a C# language learner.
I want to know which IDE is better for C# programing, Borland C#Builder or
VS.net 2003?

--
Message posted via http://www.dotnetmonster.com

[Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu]

"William Stacey [MVP]" <st***********@ mvps.org> wrote in
news:Ox******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl:

Did you notice the ";)" ? He also said a *new c# learner. So I pointed
Yes. Its just a bit irritating that so many in this group (yes I realize
its an MS group - but there .NET != VS) that so many just instantly reply
with "VS is better", when in fact most (maybe you, maybe not) have never
even used the Borland product.

I realize you mentioned two others - but the user asked specifically about
MS or Borland IDE's and the Borland IDE was pretty much just dimissed -
likely becuase "yeah well its that Borland" thing. There is a prevalent
prejudice among MS users - when in fact I think people should be much more
open minded, especially about things that in most cases they have never
even tried for themselves.
has a free IDE or not, so did not mention it and he did not mention
Delphi at all. The Borland IDE could be great, but VS has more then
The subject reads "Which IDE is better for C#, Borland C#Builder or VS.net
2003?"

Borland C# Builder is now part of Delphi.
what most need or use (at least for me) so why select another third
party? Just to be different? If you have an additional need such as
Because thats what the user asked about?
both. But for c#, I have a feeling that there are a lot more eyes on VS

Sure there are. There are lot more Americans than Germans too. Does that
mean anything?

And note that I didnt recommend either one - but you did. And in fact until
this message you didnt even back it up with anythign - just "Use MS,
becuase I do, and so does everyone else".
--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programmin g is an art form that fights back"

Empower ASP.NET with IntraWeb
http://www.atozed.com/IntraWeb/

[Cor Ligthert]

Hi Kudzu,

There are things in VS that just drive me crazy and are far better in
Borland Dev
Studio, and vice versa.

It sounds for me in the trent from what you answer in your next message to
William Stacey. Are you sure that you know everything from VS (of course I
don't ask this about Borland)?

I hate always discussions in "What is better", and than get a question in
three words.

Something as "what is better to drink warm water or cooled water".

And than all people on the Icepool start telling warm water and from the
Sahare cold water.

Cor

[Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu]

"Cor Ligthert" <no************ @planet.nl> wrote in
news:Ou******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP14.phx.gbl:

It sounds for me in the trent from what you answer in your next message
to William Stacey. Are you sure that you know everything from VS (of
course I don't ask this about Borland)?
Im quite proficient in both. If you refer to my original message I didnt
recomend either one. In fact daily I use both. On the Borland side Im quite
well known, in fact you'll find my name in the credits of Delphi.

For VS, I've done several large projects over the past 2 years and lately
spend 90% of my time in VS. Last year we completed a large project for
Microsoft, and you can believe that was in VS. :)

Its not a matter of preference for me anymore, Ive been in both too long.
There are earnest things that drive me crazy about each. Im actually
working on a small article about my top "10" things done wrong in VS. Im
not talking about bugs, or features missing, just plain SIMPLE things they
should have done a bit different.
I hate always discussions in "What is better", and than get a question
in three words.

Something as "what is better to drink warm water or cooled water".

And than all people on the Icepool start telling warm water and from the
Sahare cold water.

Bingo. Thats exactly what I was responding to. Everyone just jumps on
because these are MS groups and says "VS is" - when in truth 99% of those
saying it have never used anything else and have no reason to justify their
answer other than "I use it".

Its a like going to a Nascar race and asking "Hey Billy bob - Who do you
like better, Dale Earnheart or George Bush?"
--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programmin g is an art form that fights back"

Get your ASP.NET in gear with IntraWeb!
http://www.atozed.com/IntraWeb/

[William Stacey [MVP]]

> Yes. Its just a bit irritating that so many in this group (yes I realize

its an MS group - but there .NET != VS) that so many just instantly reply
with "VS is better", when in fact most (maybe you, maybe not) have never
even used the Borland product.
I don't think I said "VS is better" anywhere. In fact I could not find
better or best in my post.
I realize you mentioned two others - but the user asked specifically about
MS or Borland IDE's and the Borland IDE was pretty much just dimissed -
likely becuase "yeah well its that Borland" thing. There is a prevalent
prejudice among MS users - when in fact I think people should be much more
open minded, especially about things that in most cases they have never
even tried for themselves.
Yah. But I never tried editing c# code with Word, Edlin, or WordPerfect
either. I don't need to try *all of the options to give my opinion for a
new user. If we did that, we would be spending all our time downloading and
working with trial products instead of getting work done.
Sure there are. There are lot more Americans than Germans too. Does that
mean anything?
Sure it does. The odds that someone will have found the same issue and
posted a solution (or will post it) is greater if more eyes are on it. This
is obvious. That is not to say the good folks at Borland will not answer
your questions also.
And note that I didnt recommend either one - but you did.
No I did not. Please stop putting words in my mouth. It is full already.
The first post I recommended two free ones, neither of which was VS 2003 or
Borland. I guess I can never recommend using C# Express either as Borland
does not yet have a matching product in that space (or do they)?
And in fact until this message you didnt even back it up with anythign - just "Use MS, becuase I do, and so does everyone else".

Did not say that either. If your going to quote people, please quote them
and don't make up your own quote just because your upset about something.
Note you also did not address any of my points in my last post, just more
rampage about also trying Borland. So I ask, given we are just talking
about c#, what *compelling reasons do you have to buy Borland product over
VS? Also note we are talking about a "learner" here. But lets stop all
this craziness and come out and recommend the 1 product which *should be
used over them all - which is naturally Emacs! :-)
....The CLR team silently grins in agreement...

--
William Stacey, MVP
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

William Stacey [MVP] <st***********@ mvps.org> wrote:

<snip>

And note that I didnt recommend either one - but you did.

No I did not. Please stop putting words in my mouth. It is full already.
The first post I recommended two free ones, neither of which was VS 2003 or
Borland. I guess I can never recommend using C# Express either as Borland
does not yet have a matching product in that space (or do they)?

I have to disagree - even with the smiley, you still recommended VS in
your first post. You then went on to write at the end of a later post:

<quote>
Use what you want, but IMO, you would need a really
compelling reason *not to use VS in favor of some other product for c#.
</quote>

That, too, reads as a recommendation of VS to my eyes.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[William Stacey [MVP]]

Not you too Jon? Here is the quote:
"Naturally VS ;) For learning you can download C# Express beta which is a
free product. SharpDevelop http://www.icsharpcode.net/opensource/sd/ makes
a pretty good one also for free. "

Please notice the *winking smiley. That is why it is winking and not
something else. My gosh, are we actually talking about smileys here? You
can parse that all you want if you really feel the need. But please admit I
actually pointed him elsewhere at two free solutions which are both good
products (or can't I say that) and will allow a new user to grow for some
time before they need to pop for a big dollar product with more features.

<quote>
Use what you want, but IMO, you would need a really
compelling reason *not to use VS in favor of some other product for c#.
</quote>
That, too, reads as a recommendation of VS to my eyes.

Your free to read that anyway you like with your eyes. Again I say - "so
what!?" That is my opinion. I still say you would need a compelling reason
to use something else. Only one person so far actually gave a possible
compelling reason. That may be "the" reason, or it may not. Please feel
free to provide others in either direction.

--
William Stacey, MVP
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com

[Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu]

"William Stacey [MVP]" <st***********@ mvps.org> wrote in
news:eg******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP10.phx.gbl:

<quote>
Use what you want, but IMO, you would need a really
compelling reason *not to use VS in favor of some other product for c#.
</quote>
That, too, reads as a recommendation of VS to my eyes.

Your free to read that anyway you like with your eyes. Again I say -
"so what!?" That is my opinion. I still say you would need a
compelling reason to use something else. Only one person so far
actually gave a possible compelling reason. That may be "the" reason,
or it may not. Please feel free to provide others in either direction.

We could sit and argue forever without changing anything. But I think that
many people see it the way that Cor, Jon, and I do. If you thats not what
you intend, but dont care if thats how people read it, thats up to you.

My point is that the poster *specifically* asked between two IDE's, and
without having any knowledge of one you dissed and and recommended the
other - simply by default. If everyone does this, thats how we end up with
"crap", its self monopolization. Im not likening VS.NET to "crap" - as Ive
said before I have likes and dislikes about both. In fact - IMO VS.NET is
the first and only dev environment they've ever produced that's worth
anything. Of course they did it by copying Delphi, but... :)

The user was quite objective in his questions, and surely after all this
he's learned even more that if he really cares about his tools, he will
need to evaluate both for himself.
--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programmin g is an art form that fights back"

Develop ASP.NET applications easier and in less time:
http://www.atozed.com/IntraWeb/

[William Stacey [MVP]]

> My point is that the poster *specifically* asked between two IDE's, and

without having any knowledge of one you dissed and and recommended the
First, please show me where I "dissed" Borland product. Actually I tried
C#Builder before. Installed the 30MB personal download and gave it a shot.
Could not find any Forms designers and no Intellisense I could find. Could
not really use without those. If comparing newer products (such as 2005 for
both), then the question needs to change I would think.
IMO VS.NET is the first and only dev environment they've ever produced that's worth anything. Of course they did it by copying Delphi, but... :)
I agree it is nice. oops, I saw a smiley there <g>.
The user was quite objective in his questions, and surely after all this
he's learned even more that if he really cares about his tools, he will
need to evaluate both for himself.

Agreed. I can't help thinking that is bit like saying read the manual and
decide for yourself to every question. Naturally, you will need to use both
for some period of time as you can't really judge or find all the jewels and
warts without really developing and debugging with a tool for a good long
time.

--
William Stacey, MVP
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com

[Tim Jarvis]

William Stacey [MVP] wrote:

First, please show me where I "dissed" Borland product. Actually I
tried C#Builder before. Installed the 30MB personal download and
gave it a shot. Could not find any Forms designers and no
Intellisense I could find. Could not really use without those. If

Actually C# Builder (and Delphi2005) use the .NET framework's own form
designers, so I am at a loss to explain why you didn't see them.

In fact Borland have been criticized for using the inbuilt designers
because they are a bit flakey (Who else here has had controls disappear
from the controls array, and have their location set to 0,0)

FWIW it didn't seem to me that you "dissed" the Borland product, just
that you failed to acknowledge it ;-)

As I intimated in an earlier post, it seems to me that really in order
to succeed in the .NET IDE space (for the C# language) competitors to
MS are going to have to have a differentiator that will make it worth
while. And to be fair to Borland I think that they have done that with
the C# personality of Delphi2005, there are some technologies in there
that are very interesting and do not have an equivalent in VS, its
worth at least an eval, William, you should have a little play with
ECO, based on some of your other posts, I think you would like it.

In my case, I am lucky, I have both and I use and like both, I don't
think this is feasible for most people, but well there you go.

Cheers Tim.

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

William Stacey [MVP] <st***********@ mvps.org> wrote:

Not you too Jon? Here is the quote:
"Naturally VS ;) For learning you can download C# Express beta which is a
free product. SharpDevelop http://www.icsharpcode.net/opensource/sd/ makes
a pretty good one also for free. "

Please notice the *winking smiley. That is why it is winking and not
something else. My gosh, are we actually talking about smileys here? You
can parse that all you want if you really feel the need. But please admit I
actually pointed him elsewhere at two free solutions which are both good
products (or can't I say that) and will allow a new user to grow for some
time before they need to pop for a big dollar product with more features.

Yes, you pointed those out - after VS.NET. Smiley or not, that was the
first reaction - and if Chad, Cor and I can all see that as a
recommendation, then don't you think it's possible that the OP did too?
In the long run, isn't that what's actually important?

<quote>
Use what you want, but IMO, you would need a really
compelling reason *not to use VS in favor of some other product for c#.
</quote>
That, too, reads as a recommendation of VS to my eyes.

Your free to read that anyway you like with your eyes. Again I say - "so
what!?" That is my opinion.

And that's fine. I have no objection to you recommending VS.NET - it's
just recommending it and then claiming you weren't that I object to. Do
you really think that saying you should use one particular product
unless you have a really compelling reason not to is anything other
than a recommendation?

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too