Themes and Skins Vs Css

[New Bee]

Hi,

I have been looking at Themes and Skins today and now resonably understand
how they work at a ground level. But I have a couple of questions.

1. ) StyleSheetTheme

I dont understand where this would be used. As I understand it the
precidence is like this.

StyleSheetTheme
ControlProperti es
Theme

So I am at a bit of a loss as how and where one would use a StyleSheetTheme
over a Theme.
2.) Design Support for Skins

No Intellisense exists for this, so its a bit like stepping back in time to
a life before intellisense existed for CSS Development, you have to either
Know the properties or do it first on the page and just copy it accross.
This to me is a little archaic. Perhaps someone has a different view ?
3.) Using CSS with or Vs Themes

What strikes me here is that the properties of a control do not address all
the layout properties of Css. So you cant really get away without doing both
if you are to have full seperation between application and layout. This
makes things rather complex in designing a web site where all these design
abstractions are being used.

I was wondering if there is someone here who has sufficient experience with
using all three to come up with some usefull and hopefully simplistic advice
which can direct a developer on at least how to approach the task without
getting tied up in all sorts of knots.
Many Thanks.

[Kevin Spencer]

I would (and do) use CSS alone. I see no need for any additional complexity
than an external CSS style sheet. If the pages are designed correctly, you
can do an immense amount of layout manipulation using CSS alone (see
http://www.csszengarden.com for some startling examples). As for the
properties of a Control not addressing all of the CSS layout properties,
you're wrong about this. Every WebControl has a CssClass property, which
sets the "class" attribute of the client-side container element. By using
this, you can do all of your styling using a CSS style sheet. The only
reason you would need the other layout properties (which are rendered as
inline CSS styles) is to override the style sheet (inline styles trump style
sheet styles) temporarily, that is, programmaticall y for a specific
purpose).

CSS is immensely powerful, once you understand the Selector rules. Even if
you have a Component Control, your style sheet can specify the styles of any
child elements inside an element of a given class. Using CSS, you get the
best separation of UI elements from UI layout and styling rules.

I recently created a "Template" site which uses a very similar XHTML layout
to the www.csszengarden.com web site, and replaces divs with panels and
nested PlaceHolder controls in a MasterPage. I can use this to create a site
with virtually any layout and structure. For an example of the site in
actual practice, see http://www.miradyne.net.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP

Printing Components, Email Components,
FTP Client Classes, Enhanced Data Controls, much more.
DSI PrintManager, Miradyne Component Libraries:
http://www.miradyne.net

"New Bee" <[e-mail] in message
news:eB******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP04.phx.gbl...

Hi,

I have been looking at Themes and Skins today and now resonably understand
how they work at a ground level. But I have a couple of questions.

1. ) StyleSheetTheme

I dont understand where this would be used. As I understand it the
precidence is like this.

StyleSheetTheme
ControlProperti es
Theme

So I am at a bit of a loss as how and where one would use a
StyleSheetTheme over a Theme.
2.) Design Support for Skins

No Intellisense exists for this, so its a bit like stepping back in time
to a life before intellisense existed for CSS Development, you have to
either Know the properties or do it first on the page and just copy it
accross. This to me is a little archaic. Perhaps someone has a different
view ?
3.) Using CSS with or Vs Themes

What strikes me here is that the properties of a control do not address
all the layout properties of Css. So you cant really get away without
doing both if you are to have full seperation between application and
layout. This makes things rather complex in designing a web site where all
these design abstractions are being used.

I was wondering if there is someone here who has sufficient experience
with using all three to come up with some usefull and hopefully simplistic
advice which can direct a developer on at least how to approach the task
without getting tied up in all sorts of knots.
Many Thanks.

[New Bee]

Thanks for your reply Kevin.

//
As for the
properties of a Control not addressing all of the CSS layout properties,
you're wrong about this. Every WebControl has a CssClass property, which
//

You misunderstood me. I am fully aware that there is a CssClass property.
What I meant was that the controls do not have an attribute for each css
property, which would mean that you could not get away without using CSS if
you wanted seperation of styling. In other words, if one wanted to use
Theme's alone, one could not satisfy all the styling required and would have
to additionally resort to css for styling.

So, the question was if there was someone who 'Had' found a cogent and
resonable reason to use Themes over or With CSS, and what their experience
was.

Hopefully, I now have cleared up my question a little.
Cheers - NewBee

"Kevin Spencer" <un**********@n othinks.comwrot e in message
news:%2******** ********@TK2MSF TNGP06.phx.gbl. ..

>I would (and do) use CSS alone. I see no need for any additional complexity
than an external CSS style sheet. If the pages are designed correctly, you
can do an immense amount of layout manipulation using CSS alone (see
http://www.csszengarden.com for some startling examples). As for the
properties of a Control not addressing all of the CSS layout properties,
you're wrong about this. Every WebControl has a CssClass property, which
sets the "class" attribute of the client-side container element. By using
this, you can do all of your styling using a CSS style sheet. The only
reason you would need the other layout properties (which are rendered as
inline CSS styles) is to override the style sheet (inline styles trump
style sheet styles) temporarily, that is, programmaticall y for a specific
purpose).

CSS is immensely powerful, once you understand the Selector rules. Even if
you have a Component Control, your style sheet can specify the styles of
any child elements inside an element of a given class. Using CSS, you get
the best separation of UI elements from UI layout and styling rules.

I recently created a "Template" site which uses a very similar XHTML
layout to the www.csszengarden.com web site, and replaces divs with panels
and nested PlaceHolder controls in a MasterPage. I can use this to create
a site with virtually any layout and structure. For an example of the site
in actual practice, see http://www.miradyne.net.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP

Printing Components, Email Components,
FTP Client Classes, Enhanced Data Controls, much more.
DSI PrintManager, Miradyne Component Libraries:
http://www.miradyne.net

"New Bee" <[e-mail] in message
news:eB******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP04.phx.gbl...

>Hi,

I have been looking at Themes and Skins today and now resonably
understand how they work at a ground level. But I have a couple of
questions.

1. ) StyleSheetTheme

I dont understand where this would be used. As I understand it the
precidence is like this.

StyleSheetThem e
ControlPropert ies
Theme

So I am at a bit of a loss as how and where one would use a
StyleSheetThem e over a Theme.
2.) Design Support for Skins

No Intellisense exists for this, so its a bit like stepping back in time
to a life before intellisense existed for CSS Development, you have to
either Know the properties or do it first on the page and just copy it
accross. This to me is a little archaic. Perhaps someone has a different
view ?
3.) Using CSS with or Vs Themes

What strikes me here is that the properties of a control do not address
all the layout properties of Css. So you cant really get away without
doing both if you are to have full seperation between application and
layout. This makes things rather complex in designing a web site where
all these design abstractions are being used.

I was wondering if there is someone here who has sufficient experience
with using all three to come up with some usefull and hopefully
simplistic advice which can direct a developer on at least how to
approach the task without getting tied up in all sorts of knots.
Many Thanks.

[Brandon Driesen]

There is a compelling reason to use themes over skins.

For one, you can use User Properties and save user-selected Themes which can
be applied on a per-user basis once they are logged in. This is so because a
Theme is a collection of images, css files as well as skin files that allow
for in-built grouping of UI elements.

For another, by using skins, you can apply consistent UI settings on web
controls.

I find the use of themes a maintenance helper for large websites.
"New Bee" <[e-mail] in message
news:eB******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP04.phx.gbl...

Hi,

I have been looking at Themes and Skins today and now resonably understand
how they work at a ground level. But I have a couple of questions.

1. ) StyleSheetTheme

I dont understand where this would be used. As I understand it the
precidence is like this.

StyleSheetTheme
ControlProperti es
Theme

So I am at a bit of a loss as how and where one would use a
StyleSheetTheme over a Theme.
2.) Design Support for Skins

No Intellisense exists for this, so its a bit like stepping back in time
to a life before intellisense existed for CSS Development, you have to
either Know the properties or do it first on the page and just copy it
accross. This to me is a little archaic. Perhaps someone has a different
view ?
3.) Using CSS with or Vs Themes

What strikes me here is that the properties of a control do not address
all the layout properties of Css. So you cant really get away without
doing both if you are to have full seperation between application and
layout. This makes things rather complex in designing a web site where all
these design abstractions are being used.

I was wondering if there is someone here who has sufficient experience
with using all three to come up with some usefull and hopefully simplistic
advice which can direct a developer on at least how to approach the task
without getting tied up in all sorts of knots.
Many Thanks.

[New Bee]

Hi Brandon,

The question wasnt really about Themes Vs Skins, moreover it was (
Themes/Skins ) Vs Css.

Skins allow only some formatting, while css allows the full style
seperation. Having done a lot of CSS I know how powerful it is. But getting
a good Css design is not allways as easy as it sounds. Esp when you are
designing scalable web sites.

I understand the concept of skins, but Im trying to evaluate how much value
there is in using them over css. Granted, there are elements you cant set in
css, but I wonder actually how much value there is in this.

I can change css just as easily for a user as I can a theme. Im looking for
expert direction.

"Brandon Driesen" <de*********@us er.comwrote in message
news:13******** *****@corp.supe rnews.com...

There is a compelling reason to use themes over skins.

For one, you can use User Properties and save user-selected Themes which
can be applied on a per-user basis once they are logged in. This is so
because a Theme is a collection of images, css files as well as skin files
that allow for in-built grouping of UI elements.

For another, by using skins, you can apply consistent UI settings on web
controls.

I find the use of themes a maintenance helper for large websites.
"New Bee" <[e-mail] in message
news:eB******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP04.phx.gbl...

>Hi,

I have been looking at Themes and Skins today and now resonably
understand how they work at a ground level. But I have a couple of
questions.

1. ) StyleSheetTheme

I dont understand where this would be used. As I understand it the
precidence is like this.

StyleSheetThem e
ControlPropert ies
Theme

So I am at a bit of a loss as how and where one would use a
StyleSheetThem e over a Theme.
2.) Design Support for Skins

No Intellisense exists for this, so its a bit like stepping back in time
to a life before intellisense existed for CSS Development, you have to
either Know the properties or do it first on the page and just copy it
accross. This to me is a little archaic. Perhaps someone has a different
view ?
3.) Using CSS with or Vs Themes

What strikes me here is that the properties of a control do not address
all the layout properties of Css. So you cant really get away without
doing both if you are to have full seperation between application and
layout. This makes things rather complex in designing a web site where
all these design abstractions are being used.

I was wondering if there is someone here who has sufficient experience
with using all three to come up with some usefull and hopefully
simplistic advice which can direct a developer on at least how to
approach the task without getting tied up in all sorts of knots.
Many Thanks.

[bruce barker]

i use themes and skins to apply css only. the theme picks the
stylesheet, the skin picks css classes when necessary.

-- bruce (sqlwork.com)

New Bee wrote:

Hi,

I have been looking at Themes and Skins today and now resonably understand
how they work at a ground level. But I have a couple of questions.

1. ) StyleSheetTheme

I dont understand where this would be used. As I understand it the
precidence is like this.

StyleSheetTheme
ControlProperti es
Theme

So I am at a bit of a loss as how and where one would use a StyleSheetTheme
over a Theme.
2.) Design Support for Skins

No Intellisense exists for this, so its a bit like stepping back in time to
a life before intellisense existed for CSS Development, you have to either
Know the properties or do it first on the page and just copy it accross.
This to me is a little archaic. Perhaps someone has a different view ?
3.) Using CSS with or Vs Themes

What strikes me here is that the properties of a control do not address all
the layout properties of Css. So you cant really get away without doing both
if you are to have full seperation between application and layout. This
makes things rather complex in designing a web site where all these design
abstractions are being used.

I was wondering if there is someone here who has sufficient experience with
using all three to come up with some usefull and hopefully simplistic advice
which can direct a developer on at least how to approach the task without
getting tied up in all sorts of knots.
Many Thanks.

[Just Me]

OK, so if I understand you here, what you are saying is that you dont
actually use the skin markup, you simply use that functionality to connect
css pages to controls ?

"bruce barker" <no****@nospam. comwrote in message
news:%2******** ********@TK2MSF TNGP05.phx.gbl. ..

>i use themes and skins to apply css only. the theme picks the stylesheet,
the skin picks css classes when necessary.

-- bruce (sqlwork.com)

New Bee wrote:

>Hi,

I have been looking at Themes and Skins today and now resonably
understand how they work at a ground level. But I have a couple of
questions.

1. ) StyleSheetTheme

I dont understand where this would be used. As I understand it the
precidence is like this.

StyleSheetThem e
ControlPropert ies
Theme

So I am at a bit of a loss as how and where one would use a
StyleSheetThem e over a Theme.
2.) Design Support for Skins

No Intellisense exists for this, so its a bit like stepping back in time
to a life before intellisense existed for CSS Development, you have to
either Know the properties or do it first on the page and just copy it
accross. This to me is a little archaic. Perhaps someone has a different
view ?
3.) Using CSS with or Vs Themes

What strikes me here is that the properties of a control do not address
all the layout properties of Css. So you cant really get away without
doing both if you are to have full seperation between application and
layout. This makes things rather complex in designing a web site where
all these design abstractions are being used.

I was wondering if there is someone here who has sufficient experience
with using all three to come up with some usefull and hopefully
simplistic advice which can direct a developer on at least how to
approach the task without getting tied up in all sorts of knots.
Many Thanks.

[Kevin Spencer]

I didn't misunderstand you. You wanted to know whether you should use
Themes/Skins vs. CSS. I was pointing out that there is no disadvantage in
using CSS with regards to Controls, as the CSS for the Controls can be
managed fully with the CssClass combined with the various properties of the
Control, and indeed, any inline CSS style may be added to the Control
separately. If you take that fact, along with the sheer power of CSS
properly used, you have no disadvantage at all using CSS alone.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP

Printing Components, Email Components,
FTP Client Classes, Enhanced Data Controls, much more.
DSI PrintManager, Miradyne Component Libraries:
http://www.miradyne.net

"New Bee" <[e-mail] in message
news:uk******** *****@TK2MSFTNG P06.phx.gbl...

Thanks for your reply Kevin.

//
As for the
properties of a Control not addressing all of the CSS layout properties,
you're wrong about this. Every WebControl has a CssClass property, which
//

You misunderstood me. I am fully aware that there is a CssClass property.
What I meant was that the controls do not have an attribute for each css
property, which would mean that you could not get away without using CSS
if you wanted seperation of styling. In other words, if one wanted to use
Theme's alone, one could not satisfy all the styling required and would
have to additionally resort to css for styling.

So, the question was if there was someone who 'Had' found a cogent and
resonable reason to use Themes over or With CSS, and what their experience
was.

Hopefully, I now have cleared up my question a little.
Cheers - NewBee

"Kevin Spencer" <un**********@n othinks.comwrot e in message
news:%2******** ********@TK2MSF TNGP06.phx.gbl. ..

>>I would (and do) use CSS alone. I see no need for any additional
complexity than an external CSS style sheet. If the pages are designed
correctly, you can do an immense amount of layout manipulation using CSS
alone (see http://www.csszengarden.com for some startling examples). As
for the properties of a Control not addressing all of the CSS layout
properties, you're wrong about this. Every WebControl has a CssClass
property, which sets the "class" attribute of the client-side container
element. By using this, you can do all of your styling using a CSS style
sheet. The only reason you would need the other layout properties (which
are rendered as inline CSS styles) is to override the style sheet (inline
styles trump style sheet styles) temporarily, that is, programmaticall y
for a specific purpose).

CSS is immensely powerful, once you understand the Selector rules. Even
if you have a Component Control, your style sheet can specify the styles
of any child elements inside an element of a given class. Using CSS, you
get the best separation of UI elements from UI layout and styling rules.

I recently created a "Template" site which uses a very similar XHTML
layout to the www.csszengarden.com web site, and replaces divs with
panels and nested PlaceHolder controls in a MasterPage. I can use this to
create a site with virtually any layout and structure. For an example of
the site in actual practice, see http://www.miradyne.net.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP

Printing Components, Email Components,
FTP Client Classes, Enhanced Data Controls, much more.
DSI PrintManager, Miradyne Component Libraries:
http://www.miradyne.net

"New Bee" <[e-mail] in message
news:eB******* *******@TK2MSFT NGP04.phx.gbl.. .

>>Hi,

I have been looking at Themes and Skins today and now resonably
understand how they work at a ground level. But I have a couple of
questions.

1. ) StyleSheetTheme

I dont understand where this would be used. As I understand it the
precidence is like this.

StyleSheetThe me
ControlProper ties
Theme

So I am at a bit of a loss as how and where one would use a
StyleSheetThe me over a Theme.
2.) Design Support for Skins

No Intellisense exists for this, so its a bit like stepping back in time
to a life before intellisense existed for CSS Development, you have to
either Know the properties or do it first on the page and just copy it
accross. This to me is a little archaic. Perhaps someone has a different
view ?
3.) Using CSS with or Vs Themes

What strikes me here is that the properties of a control do not address
all the layout properties of Css. So you cant really get away without
doing both if you are to have full seperation between application and
layout. This makes things rather complex in designing a web site where
all these design abstractions are being used.

I was wondering if there is someone here who has sufficient experience
with using all three to come up with some usefull and hopefully
simplistic advice which can direct a developer on at least how to
approach the task without getting tied up in all sorts of knots.
Many Thanks.

[Just Me]

Yeah ok
"Kevin Spencer" <un**********@n othinks.comwrot e in message
news:u2******** *****@TK2MSFTNG P03.phx.gbl...

>I didn't misunderstand you. You wanted to know whether you should use
Themes/Skins vs. CSS. I was pointing out that there is no disadvantage in
using CSS with regards to Controls, as the CSS for the Controls can be
managed fully with the CssClass combined with the various properties of the
Control, and indeed, any inline CSS style may be added to the Control
separately. If you take that fact, along with the sheer power of CSS
properly used, you have no disadvantage at all using CSS alone.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP

Printing Components, Email Components,
FTP Client Classes, Enhanced Data Controls, much more.
DSI PrintManager, Miradyne Component Libraries:
http://www.miradyne.net

"New Bee" <[e-mail] in message
news:uk******** *****@TK2MSFTNG P06.phx.gbl...

>Thanks for your reply Kevin.

//
As for the
properties of a Control not addressing all of the CSS layout properties,
you're wrong about this. Every WebControl has a CssClass property, which
//

You misunderstood me. I am fully aware that there is a CssClass property.
What I meant was that the controls do not have an attribute for each css
property, which would mean that you could not get away without using CSS
if you wanted seperation of styling. In other words, if one wanted to use
Theme's alone, one could not satisfy all the styling required and would
have to additionally resort to css for styling.

So, the question was if there was someone who 'Had' found a cogent and
resonable reason to use Themes over or With CSS, and what their
experience was.

Hopefully, I now have cleared up my question a little.
Cheers - NewBee

"Kevin Spencer" <un**********@n othinks.comwrot e in message
news:%2******* *********@TK2MS FTNGP06.phx.gbl ...

>>>I would (and do) use CSS alone. I see no need for any additional
complexity than an external CSS style sheet. If the pages are designed
correctly, you can do an immense amount of layout manipulation using CSS
alone (see http://www.csszengarden.com for some startling examples). As
for the properties of a Control not addressing all of the CSS layout
properties , you're wrong about this. Every WebControl has a CssClass
property, which sets the "class" attribute of the client-side container
element. By using this, you can do all of your styling using a CSS style
sheet. The only reason you would need the other layout properties (which
are rendered as inline CSS styles) is to override the style sheet (inline
styles trump style sheet styles) temporarily, that is, programmaticall y
for a specific purpose).

CSS is immensely powerful, once you understand the Selector rules. Even
if you have a Component Control, your style sheet can specify the styles
of any child elements inside an element of a given class. Using CSS, you
get the best separation of UI elements from UI layout and styling rules.

I recently created a "Template" site which uses a very similar XHTML
layout to the www.csszengarden.com web site, and replaces divs with
panels and nested PlaceHolder controls in a MasterPage. I can use this
to create a site with virtually any layout and structure. For an example
of the site in actual practice, see http://www.miradyne.net.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP

Printing Components, Email Components,
FTP Client Classes, Enhanced Data Controls, much more.
DSI PrintManager, Miradyne Component Libraries:
http://www.miradyne.net

"New Bee" <[e-mail] in message
news:eB****** ********@TK2MSF TNGP04.phx.gbl. ..
Hi,

I have been looking at Themes and Skins today and now resonably
understand how they work at a ground level. But I have a couple of
questions.

1. ) StyleSheetTheme

I dont understand where this would be used. As I understand it the
precidence is like this.

StyleSheetTh eme
ControlPrope rties
Theme

So I am at a bit of a loss as how and where one would use a
StyleSheetTh eme over a Theme.
2.) Design Support for Skins

No Intellisense exists for this, so its a bit like stepping back in
time to a life before intellisense existed for CSS Development, you
have to either Know the properties or do it first on the page and just
copy it accross. This to me is a little archaic. Perhaps someone has a
different view ?
3.) Using CSS with or Vs Themes

What strikes me here is that the properties of a control do not address
all the layout properties of Css. So you cant really get away without
doing both if you are to have full seperation between application and
layout. This makes things rather complex in designing a web site where
all these design abstractions are being used.

I was wondering if there is someone here who has sufficient experience
with using all three to come up with some usefull and hopefully
simplistic advice which can direct a developer on at least how to
approach the task without getting tied up in all sorts of knots.
Many Thanks.

[Cowboy \(Gregory A. Beamer\)]

Ultimately, skins and themes are methods of simplifying UI look and feel
(aka customization or personalization ). You can accomplish everything you
need with CSS, but you will have to be in control, so you lose a bit of the
drag and drop. But, this is not as bad as it seems, as you have found out,
since few people seem to really be grabbing the whole theme and skin idea
(more so for themes than skins). CSS is not going away, not sure about the
rest and with WPF/E (aka Silverlight) on the horizon, it is likely our UIs
will change (that could be bleeding edge as well, just like themes and
skins).

My advice: Focus on CSS first. You can always combine it with the Microsoft
specific stuff, but a good solid understanding of CSS will take you far no
matter which way the ship turns. I would then delve into Themes and SKins if
time allows.

Personally, other than my experimentation in the beta, I have not used
Themes and Skins and I have multiple sites using the exact same engine (ie,
skinnable). I have found the Themes/Skins direction to be half-baked. It is
great for someone without the time for the learning curve to build his own,
but it is so half-baked as to be unusable in Enterprise level software. Your
mileage may vary.

--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA
http://gregorybeamer.spaces.live.com

*************** *************** ***************
Think outside the box!
*************** *************** ***************
"New Bee" <[e-mail] in message
news:eB******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP04.phx.gbl...

Hi,

I have been looking at Themes and Skins today and now resonably understand
how they work at a ground level. But I have a couple of questions.

1. ) StyleSheetTheme

I dont understand where this would be used. As I understand it the
precidence is like this.

StyleSheetTheme
ControlProperti es
Theme

So I am at a bit of a loss as how and where one would use a
StyleSheetTheme over a Theme.
2.) Design Support for Skins

No Intellisense exists for this, so its a bit like stepping back in time
to a life before intellisense existed for CSS Development, you have to
either Know the properties or do it first on the page and just copy it
accross. This to me is a little archaic. Perhaps someone has a different
view ?
3.) Using CSS with or Vs Themes

What strikes me here is that the properties of a control do not address
all the layout properties of Css. So you cant really get away without
doing both if you are to have full seperation between application and
layout. This makes things rather complex in designing a web site where all
these design abstractions are being used.

I was wondering if there is someone here who has sufficient experience
with using all three to come up with some usefull and hopefully simplistic
advice which can direct a developer on at least how to approach the task
without getting tied up in all sorts of knots.
Many Thanks.