Joel Spolsky's new article "How Microsoft Lost the API War" at http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html
describes how .NET has failed, how classic VB6 and ASP continue to be
preferred by developers, and how Microsoft has lost control of the
preferred API.
You really should read the article. Here are some excerpts:
<Joel Spolsky>
"And yet, people aren't really using .NET much.
Oh sure, some of them are..."
"instead of .NET unifying and simplifying, we have a big 6-way mess,
with everybody trying to figure out which development strategy to use
and whether they can afford to port their existing applications to
..NET.
"No matter how consistent Microsoft is in their marketing message
('just use .NET—trust us!'), most of their customers are still using
C, C++, Visual Basic 6.0, and classic ASP, not to mention all the
other development tools from other companies. And the ones that are
using .NET are using ASP.NET to develop web applications, which run on
a Windows server but don't require Windows clients, which is a key
point I'll talk about more when I talk about the web."
"if you're developing a Windows GUI app today using Microsoft's
'official' latest-and-greatest Windows programming environment,
WinForms, you're going to have to start over again in two years to
support Longhorn and Avalon. Which explains why WinForms is completely
stillborn. Hope you haven't invested too much in it. Jon Udell found a
slide from Microsoft labelled 'How Do I Pick Between Windows Forms and
Avalon?' and asks, 'Why do I have to pick between Windows Forms and
Avalon?' A good question, and one to which he finds no great answer."
"So you've got the Windows API, you've got VB, and now you've got
..NET, in several language flavors, and don't get too attached to any
of that, because we're making Avalon, you see, which will only run on
the newest Microsoft operating system, which nobody will have for a
loooong time. And personally I still haven't had time to learn .NET
very deeply, and we haven't ported Fog Creek's two applications from
classic ASP and Visual Basic 6.0 to .NET because there's no return on
investment for us. None. It's just Fire and Motion as far as I'm
concerned..."
"the Web user interface is about 80% there, and even without new web
browsers we can probably get 95% there. This is Good Enough for most
people and it's certainly good enough for developers, who have voted
to develop almost every significant new application as a web
application.
Which means, suddenly, Microsoft's API doesn't matter so much. Web
applications don't require Windows.
It's not that Microsoft didn't notice this was happening. Of course
they did, and when the implications became clear, they slammed on the
brakes. Promising new technologies like HTAs and DHTML were stopped in
their tracks. The Internet Explorer team seems to have disappeared;
they have been completely missing in action for several years. There's
no way Microsoft is going to allow DHTML to get any better than it
already is: it's just too dangerous to their core business, the rich
client. The big meme at Microsoft these days is: 'Microsoft is betting
the company on the rich client.'"
"Much as I hate to say it, a huge chunk of developers have long since
moved to the web and refuse to move back. Most .NET developers are
ASP.NET developers, developing for Microsoft's web server...None of
this bodes well for Microsoft and the profits it enjoyed thanks to its
API power. The new API is HTML, and the new winners in the application
development marketplace will be the people who can make HTML sing.
</Joel Spolsky>
The only sentence in the article that I disagree with is:
JS> "ASP.NET is brilliant; I've been working with web
JS> development for ten years and it's really just a
JS> generation ahead of everything out there."
Whereas in my eyes ASP.NET is not a "generation ahead", but merely a
Microsoft rewrite of some well-known Perl modules available years ago
that:
- use templates to generate dynamic web pages and
- encrypt form data.
dotnetforfood
classic ASP rulez!!!
Jul 19 '05
24  3048 
If fun to see how everyone react to someone's opinion.
I might not be the best programmer and know what everything means yet but I
know for a fact that .NET is much better then all other I program in.
It already saved me hours of development time on several website and it
decreased the "space" being used with a few 100mb on sites.
It already has been profitable for me and my friends for who I am making the
sites. They already saved some bucks on the monthly renting webspace
and all this is made possible by .NET. A friend of mine owns a gameshop and
had a MS Access DB with Frontend build in running but since he's opening
a new gameshop he needed that the program would work everywhere. Guess what,
in just 4 days I made the entire program in .NET while I had 6 weeks to
finish it.
I dont care about money and stuff thats going on with programmers and so,
heck I dont even get paid (althrou I wish I was lol) but I program because I
like it.
I learn new things because I like it. and you know, I like .NET :D
Richard
"dotnetforf ood" <do***********@ yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:64******** *************** **@posting.goog le.com... Joel Spolsky's new article "How Microsoft Lost the API War" at
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html
describes how .NET has failed, how classic VB6 and ASP continue to be
preferred by developers, and how Microsoft has lost control of the
preferred API.
You really should read the article. Here are some excerpts:
<Joel Spolsky>
"And yet, people aren't really using .NET much.
Oh sure, some of them are..."
"instead of .NET unifying and simplifying, we have a big 6-way mess,
with everybody trying to figure out which development strategy to use
and whether they can afford to port their existing applications to
.NET.
"No matter how consistent Microsoft is in their marketing message
('just use .NET-trust us!'), most of their customers are still using
C, C++, Visual Basic 6.0, and classic ASP, not to mention all the
other development tools from other companies. And the ones that are
using .NET are using ASP.NET to develop web applications, which run on
a Windows server but don't require Windows clients, which is a key
point I'll talk about more when I talk about the web."
"if you're developing a Windows GUI app today using Microsoft's
'official' latest-and-greatest Windows programming environment,
WinForms, you're going to have to start over again in two years to
support Longhorn and Avalon. Which explains why WinForms is completely
stillborn. Hope you haven't invested too much in it. Jon Udell found a
slide from Microsoft labelled 'How Do I Pick Between Windows Forms and
Avalon?' and asks, 'Why do I have to pick between Windows Forms and
Avalon?' A good question, and one to which he finds no great answer."
"So you've got the Windows API, you've got VB, and now you've got
.NET, in several language flavors, and don't get too attached to any
of that, because we're making Avalon, you see, which will only run on
the newest Microsoft operating system, which nobody will have for a
loooong time. And personally I still haven't had time to learn .NET
very deeply, and we haven't ported Fog Creek's two applications from
classic ASP and Visual Basic 6.0 to .NET because there's no return on
investment for us. None. It's just Fire and Motion as far as I'm
concerned..."
"the Web user interface is about 80% there, and even without new web
browsers we can probably get 95% there. This is Good Enough for most
people and it's certainly good enough for developers, who have voted
to develop almost every significant new application as a web
application.
Which means, suddenly, Microsoft's API doesn't matter so much. Web
applications don't require Windows.
It's not that Microsoft didn't notice this was happening. Of course
they did, and when the implications became clear, they slammed on the
brakes. Promising new technologies like HTAs and DHTML were stopped in
their tracks. The Internet Explorer team seems to have disappeared;
they have been completely missing in action for several years. There's
no way Microsoft is going to allow DHTML to get any better than it
already is: it's just too dangerous to their core business, the rich
client. The big meme at Microsoft these days is: 'Microsoft is betting
the company on the rich client.'"
"Much as I hate to say it, a huge chunk of developers have long since
moved to the web and refuse to move back. Most .NET developers are
ASP.NET developers, developing for Microsoft's web server...None of
this bodes well for Microsoft and the profits it enjoyed thanks to its
API power. The new API is HTML, and the new winners in the application
development marketplace will be the people who can make HTML sing.
</Joel Spolsky>
The only sentence in the article that I disagree with is:
JS> "ASP.NET is brilliant; I've been working with web
JS> development for ten years and it's really just a
JS> generation ahead of everything out there."
Whereas in my eyes ASP.NET is not a "generation ahead", but merely a
Microsoft rewrite of some well-known Perl modules available years ago
that:
- use templates to generate dynamic web pages and
- encrypt form data.
dotnetforfood
classic ASP rulez!!!
"Richard" wrote in message
news:40******** *************** @newsreader.ewe ka.nl...
: If fun to see how everyone react to someone's opinion.
: I might not be the best programmer and know what everything means yet but
I
: know for a fact that .NET is much better then all other I program in.
: It already saved me hours of development time on several website and it
: decreased the "space" being used with a few 100mb on sites.
:
: It already has been profitable for me and my friends for who I am making
the
: sites. They already saved some bucks on the monthly renting webspace
: and all this is made possible by .NET. A friend of mine owns a gameshop
and
: had a MS Access DB with Frontend build in running but since he's opening
: a new gameshop he needed that the program would work everywhere. Guess
what,
: in just 4 days I made the entire program in .NET while I had 6 weeks to
: finish it.
:
: I dont care about money and stuff thats going on with programmers and so,
: heck I dont even get paid (althrou I wish I was lol) but I program because
I
: like it.
: I learn new things because I like it. and you know, I like .NET :D
Well said Richard. Giving your opinion about something you've experienced,
good or bad, is informative and a benefit for all. This thread beginning,
and the article referenced, while opinions, are written as "THE WORD" and
any opposition to it returns a comment similar to:
[After 5 days, Spolsky's "rambling opinion" is referenced by over 2500
sites. But only I am reading your (non-informative, boring,
uninteresting, empty, useless, wasted) post!-)
Whose opinions are respected: Spolsky's or yours?]
....which turns this pretty much into nothing more than a flame war. It's
nice to see a refreshing post such as yours.
--
Roland Hall
/* This information is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but
without any warranty; without even the implied warranty of merchantability
or fitness for a particular purpose. */
Technet Script Center - http://www.microsoft.com/technet/scriptcenter/
WSH 5.6 Documentation - http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/list/webdev.asp
MSDN Library - http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp
D**n! I could have sworn that horse was dead...
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
..Net Developer
Microsoft MVP
Big things are made up
of lots of little things.
"Ken" <Ke*@discussion s.microsoft.com > wrote in message
news:24******** *************** ***********@mic rosoft.com... actually, i thought the article was saying that the Windows API was dead
and you're a good example of why. why develop for Windows when making a web
based app is SO much easier to implement/install/etc.?
so he's not saying that asp.net is dead (that's some other guy's title).
he's saying that Microsoft lost the app war with the web.
"Richard" wrote:
If fun to see how everyone react to someone's opinion.
I might not be the best programmer and know what everything means yet
but I know for a fact that .NET is much better then all other I program in.
It already saved me hours of development time on several website and it
decreased the "space" being used with a few 100mb on sites.
It already has been profitable for me and my friends for who I am making
the sites. They already saved some bucks on the monthly renting webspace
and all this is made possible by .NET. A friend of mine owns a gameshop
and had a MS Access DB with Frontend build in running but since he's opening
a new gameshop he needed that the program would work everywhere. Guess
what, in just 4 days I made the entire program in .NET while I had 6 weeks to
finish it.
I dont care about money and stuff thats going on with programmers and
so, heck I dont even get paid (althrou I wish I was lol) but I program
because I like it.
I learn new things because I like it. and you know, I like .NET :D
Richard
"dotnetforf ood" <do***********@ yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:64******** *************** **@posting.goog le.com... Joel Spolsky's new article "How Microsoft Lost the API War" at
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html
describes how .NET has failed, how classic VB6 and ASP continue to be
preferred by developers, and how Microsoft has lost control of the
preferred API.
You really should read the article. Here are some excerpts:
<Joel Spolsky>
"And yet, people aren't really using .NET much.
Oh sure, some of them are..."
"instead of .NET unifying and simplifying, we have a big 6-way mess,
with everybody trying to figure out which development strategy to use
and whether they can afford to port their existing applications to
.NET.
"No matter how consistent Microsoft is in their marketing message
('just use .NET-trust us!'), most of their customers are still using
C, C++, Visual Basic 6.0, and classic ASP, not to mention all the
other development tools from other companies. And the ones that are
using .NET are using ASP.NET to develop web applications, which run on
a Windows server but don't require Windows clients, which is a key
point I'll talk about more when I talk about the web."
"if you're developing a Windows GUI app today using Microsoft's
'official' latest-and-greatest Windows programming environment,
WinForms, you're going to have to start over again in two years to
support Longhorn and Avalon. Which explains why WinForms is completely
stillborn. Hope you haven't invested too much in it. Jon Udell found a
slide from Microsoft labelled 'How Do I Pick Between Windows Forms and
Avalon?' and asks, 'Why do I have to pick between Windows Forms and
Avalon?' A good question, and one to which he finds no great answer."
"So you've got the Windows API, you've got VB, and now you've got
.NET, in several language flavors, and don't get too attached to any
of that, because we're making Avalon, you see, which will only run on
the newest Microsoft operating system, which nobody will have for a
loooong time. And personally I still haven't had time to learn .NET
very deeply, and we haven't ported Fog Creek's two applications from
classic ASP and Visual Basic 6.0 to .NET because there's no return on
investment for us. None. It's just Fire and Motion as far as I'm
concerned..."
"the Web user interface is about 80% there, and even without new web
browsers we can probably get 95% there. This is Good Enough for most
people and it's certainly good enough for developers, who have voted
to develop almost every significant new application as a web
application.
Which means, suddenly, Microsoft's API doesn't matter so much. Web
applications don't require Windows.
It's not that Microsoft didn't notice this was happening. Of course
they did, and when the implications became clear, they slammed on the
brakes. Promising new technologies like HTAs and DHTML were stopped in
their tracks. The Internet Explorer team seems to have disappeared;
they have been completely missing in action for several years. There's
no way Microsoft is going to allow DHTML to get any better than it
already is: it's just too dangerous to their core business, the rich
client. The big meme at Microsoft these days is: 'Microsoft is betting
the company on the rich client.'"
"Much as I hate to say it, a huge chunk of developers have long since
moved to the web and refuse to move back. Most .NET developers are
ASP.NET developers, developing for Microsoft's web server...None of
this bodes well for Microsoft and the profits it enjoyed thanks to its
API power. The new API is HTML, and the new winners in the application
development marketplace will be the people who can make HTML sing.
</Joel Spolsky>
The only sentence in the article that I disagree with is:
JS> "ASP.NET is brilliant; I've been working with web
JS> development for ten years and it's really just a
JS> generation ahead of everything out there."
Whereas in my eyes ASP.NET is not a "generation ahead", but merely a
Microsoft rewrite of some well-known Perl modules available years ago
that:
- use templates to generate dynamic web pages and
- encrypt form data.
dotnetforfood
classic ASP rulez!!!
After reading your post, I couldnt convince my self to read that article. But as I read Alvin Bruney's post, I'll read that article when I want a good laugh. For now I already have had a lot of laughs on the new features recently added to the new java, they just added autoboxing!!!! Aint that cool? The only sentence in the article that I disagree with is:
JS> "ASP.NET is brilliant; I've been working with web
JS> development for ten years and it's really just a
JS> generation ahead of everything out there."
The only thing that you disagree with is perhaps the only thing written right in the article.
Abubakar.
http://joehacker.blogspot.com
"dotnetforf ood" wrote:
Joel Spolsky's new article "How Microsoft Lost the API War" at
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html
describes how .NET has failed, how classic VB6 and ASP continue to be
preferred by developers, and how Microsoft has lost control of the
preferred API.
You really should read the article. Here are some excerpts:
<Joel Spolsky>
"And yet, people aren't really using .NET much.
Oh sure, some of them are..."
"instead of .NET unifying and simplifying, we have a big 6-way mess,
with everybody trying to figure out which development strategy to use
and whether they can afford to port their existing applications to
..NET.
"No matter how consistent Microsoft is in their marketing message
('just use .NET—trust us!'), most of their customers are still using
C, C++, Visual Basic 6.0, and classic ASP, not to mention all the
other development tools from other companies. And the ones that are
using .NET are using ASP.NET to develop web applications, which run on
a Windows server but don't require Windows clients, which is a key
point I'll talk about more when I talk about the web."
"if you're developing a Windows GUI app today using Microsoft's
'official' latest-and-greatest Windows programming environment,
WinForms, you're going to have to start over again in two years to
support Longhorn and Avalon. Which explains why WinForms is completely
stillborn. Hope you haven't invested too much in it. Jon Udell found a
slide from Microsoft labelled 'How Do I Pick Between Windows Forms and
Avalon?' and asks, 'Why do I have to pick between Windows Forms and
Avalon?' A good question, and one to which he finds no great answer."
"So you've got the Windows API, you've got VB, and now you've got
..NET, in several language flavors, and don't get too attached to any
of that, because we're making Avalon, you see, which will only run on
the newest Microsoft operating system, which nobody will have for a
loooong time. And personally I still haven't had time to learn .NET
very deeply, and we haven't ported Fog Creek's two applications from
classic ASP and Visual Basic 6.0 to .NET because there's no return on
investment for us. None. It's just Fire and Motion as far as I'm
concerned..."
"the Web user interface is about 80% there, and even without new web
browsers we can probably get 95% there. This is Good Enough for most
people and it's certainly good enough for developers, who have voted
to develop almost every significant new application as a web
application.
Which means, suddenly, Microsoft's API doesn't matter so much. Web
applications don't require Windows.
It's not that Microsoft didn't notice this was happening. Of course
they did, and when the implications became clear, they slammed on the
brakes. Promising new technologies like HTAs and DHTML were stopped in
their tracks. The Internet Explorer team seems to have disappeared;
they have been completely missing in action for several years. There's
no way Microsoft is going to allow DHTML to get any better than it
already is: it's just too dangerous to their core business, the rich
client. The big meme at Microsoft these days is: 'Microsoft is betting
the company on the rich client.'"
"Much as I hate to say it, a huge chunk of developers have long since
moved to the web and refuse to move back. Most .NET developers are
ASP.NET developers, developing for Microsoft's web server...None of
this bodes well for Microsoft and the profits it enjoyed thanks to its
API power. The new API is HTML, and the new winners in the application
development marketplace will be the people who can make HTML sing.
</Joel Spolsky>
The only sentence in the article that I disagree with is:
JS> "ASP.NET is brilliant; I've been working with web
JS> development for ten years and it's really just a
JS> generation ahead of everything out there."
Whereas in my eyes ASP.NET is not a "generation ahead", but merely a
Microsoft rewrite of some well-known Perl modules available years ago
that:
- use templates to generate dynamic web pages and
- encrypt form data.
dotnetforfood
classic ASP rulez!!!
Wah Jee Wah!
"Abubakar" wrote: After reading your post, I couldnt convince my self to read that article. But as I read Alvin Bruney's post, I'll read that article when I want a good laugh. For now I already have had a lot of laughs on the new features recently added to the new java, they just added autoboxing!!!! Aint that cool?
The only sentence in the article that I disagree with is:
JS> "ASP.NET is brilliant; I've been working with web
JS> development for ten years and it's really just a
JS> generation ahead of everything out there."
The only thing that you disagree with is perhaps the only thing written right in the article.
Abubakar.
http://joehacker.blogspot.com
"dotnetforf ood" wrote:
Joel Spolsky's new article "How Microsoft Lost the API War" at
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html
describes how .NET has failed, how classic VB6 and ASP continue to be
preferred by developers, and how Microsoft has lost control of the
preferred API.
You really should read the article. Here are some excerpts:
<Joel Spolsky>
"And yet, people aren't really using .NET much.
Oh sure, some of them are..."
"instead of .NET unifying and simplifying, we have a big 6-way mess,
with everybody trying to figure out which development strategy to use
and whether they can afford to port their existing applications to
..NET.
"No matter how consistent Microsoft is in their marketing message
('just use .NET—trust us!'), most of their customers are still using
C, C++, Visual Basic 6.0, and classic ASP, not to mention all the
other development tools from other companies. And the ones that are
using .NET are using ASP.NET to develop web applications, which run on
a Windows server but don't require Windows clients, which is a key
point I'll talk about more when I talk about the web."
"if you're developing a Windows GUI app today using Microsoft's
'official' latest-and-greatest Windows programming environment,
WinForms, you're going to have to start over again in two years to
support Longhorn and Avalon. Which explains why WinForms is completely
stillborn. Hope you haven't invested too much in it. Jon Udell found a
slide from Microsoft labelled 'How Do I Pick Between Windows Forms and
Avalon?' and asks, 'Why do I have to pick between Windows Forms and
Avalon?' A good question, and one to which he finds no great answer."
"So you've got the Windows API, you've got VB, and now you've got
..NET, in several language flavors, and don't get too attached to any
of that, because we're making Avalon, you see, which will only run on
the newest Microsoft operating system, which nobody will have for a
loooong time. And personally I still haven't had time to learn .NET
very deeply, and we haven't ported Fog Creek's two applications from
classic ASP and Visual Basic 6.0 to .NET because there's no return on
investment for us. None. It's just Fire and Motion as far as I'm
concerned..."
"the Web user interface is about 80% there, and even without new web
browsers we can probably get 95% there. This is Good Enough for most
people and it's certainly good enough for developers, who have voted
to develop almost every significant new application as a web
application.
Which means, suddenly, Microsoft's API doesn't matter so much. Web
applications don't require Windows.
It's not that Microsoft didn't notice this was happening. Of course
they did, and when the implications became clear, they slammed on the
brakes. Promising new technologies like HTAs and DHTML were stopped in
their tracks. The Internet Explorer team seems to have disappeared;
they have been completely missing in action for several years. There's
no way Microsoft is going to allow DHTML to get any better than it
already is: it's just too dangerous to their core business, the rich
client. The big meme at Microsoft these days is: 'Microsoft is betting
the company on the rich client.'"
"Much as I hate to say it, a huge chunk of developers have long since
moved to the web and refuse to move back. Most .NET developers are
ASP.NET developers, developing for Microsoft's web server...None of
this bodes well for Microsoft and the profits it enjoyed thanks to its
API power. The new API is HTML, and the new winners in the application
development marketplace will be the people who can make HTML sing.
</Joel Spolsky>
The only sentence in the article that I disagree with is:
JS> "ASP.NET is brilliant; I've been working with web
JS> development for ten years and it's really just a
JS> generation ahead of everything out there."
Whereas in my eyes ASP.NET is not a "generation ahead", but merely a
Microsoft rewrite of some well-known Perl modules available years ago
that:
- use templates to generate dynamic web pages and
- encrypt form data.
dotnetforfood
classic ASP rulez!!! This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics | |
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last post by:
I surveyed market penetration of various server-side technologies
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FileExt Occurrences
====================
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last post by:
Joel Spolsky's new article "How Microsoft Lost the API War" at
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html
describes how .NET has failed, how classic VB6 and ASP continue to be
preferred by developers, and how Microsoft has lost control of the
preferred API.
You really should read the article. Here are some excerpts:
<Joel Spolsky>
"And yet, people aren't really using .NET much.
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The next Access Europe User Group meeting will be on Wednesday 1 May 2024 starting at 18:00 UK time (6PM UTC+1) and finishing by 19:30 (7.30PM).
In this session, we are pleased to welcome a new presenter, Adolph Dupré who will be discussing some powerful techniques for using class modules.
He will explain when you may want to use classes instead of User Defined Types (UDT). For example, to manage the data in unbound forms.
Adolph will...
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by: TSSRALBI |
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Hello
I'm a network technician in training and I need your help.
I am currently learning how to create and manage the different types of VPNs and I have a question about LAN-to-LAN VPNs.
The last exercise I practiced was to create a LAN-to-LAN VPN between two Pfsense firewalls, by using IPSEC protocols.
I succeeded, with both firewalls in the same network. But I'm wondering if it's possible to do the same thing, with 2 Pfsense firewalls...
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by: adsilva |
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A Windows Forms form does not have the event Unload, like VB6. What one acts like?
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by: muto222 |
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How can i add a mobile payment intergratation into php mysql website.
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by: bsmnconsultancy |
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In today's digital era, a well-designed website is crucial for businesses looking to succeed. Whether you're a small business owner or a large corporation in Toronto, having a strong online presence can significantly impact your brand's success. BSMN Consultancy, a leader in Website Development in Toronto offers valuable insights into creating effective websites that not only look great but also perform exceptionally well. In this comprehensive...
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