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Ms Access 2003

P: n/a
Is there a way to find out where an application was created from?

i.e. - work or home

i.e. - if application sits on a (work) server/network, the IT people know the
application is sitting there, but is there a way they can find out if that
application was put there from a CD or email or created at work?
Hint: It's not on a client/server database, just native jet database mdb
created on Access 2003 (default 2000)...

--
Message posted via AccessMonster.com
http://www.accessmonster.com/Uwe/For...ccess/200605/1
May 17 '06 #1
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17 Replies


P: n/a
Hi, Mell.
if application sits on a (work) server/network, the IT people know the
application is sitting there, but is there a way they can find out if that
application was put there from a CD or email or created at work?
Yes. What have you been doing that this is a concern to you? Are you
asking for our help to cover your tracks? ;-)

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.
"Mell via AccessMonster.com" <u18304@uwe> wrote in message
news:6065c6e0b839c@uwe... Is there a way to find out where an application was created from?

i.e. - work or home

i.e. - if application sits on a (work) server/network, the IT people know
the
application is sitting there, but is there a way they can find out if that
application was put there from a CD or email or created at work?
Hint: It's not on a client/server database, just native jet database mdb
created on Access 2003 (default 2000)...

--
Message posted via AccessMonster.com
http://www.accessmonster.com/Uwe/For...ccess/200605/1

May 17 '06 #2

P: n/a
You are silly.....

no actually, quite the opposite, I have a feeling someone else is doing so on
my time........

Please advise..............
Mel

'69 Camaro wrote:
Hi, Mell.
if application sits on a (work) server/network, the IT people know the
application is sitting there, but is there a way they can find out if that
application was put there from a CD or email or created at work?


Yes. What have you been doing that this is a concern to you? Are you
asking for our help to cover your tracks? ;-)

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.
Is there a way to find out where an application was created from?

[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
Hint: It's not on a client/server database, just native jet database mdb
created on Access 2003 (default 2000)...


--
Message posted via AccessMonster.com
http://www.accessmonster.com/Uwe/For...ccess/200605/1
May 17 '06 #3

P: n/a
Hi, Mell.

The two most common methods of detection depend upon the computer's
operating system. Neither of these methods is absolute proof, but I'll
describe the tell-tale signs that the MDB file was downloaded from either an
E-mail or the Internet, or copied from a CD, and you can make your own
decision whether or not to confront the individual.

If the user's computer is Windows 2000 Professional and he copies an MDB
file from a CD to a hard drive (either his own hard drive or a network hard
drive), then the "Read-only" file attribute will still be set from when the
file was written to the CD, unless the user manually unchecks this attribute
after copying the file to the hard drive. (In Windows Explorer, right-click
on the file name, then select "Properties" on the pop-up menu and look at
the "Read-only" check box at the bottom of the Properties dialog window.)
Windows XP will automatically change the "Read-only" attribute when the file
is copied from the CD, so there's no way to tell it was copied from the CD
just by looking at this attribute afterwards.

If the user's computer is Windows XP SP-2, is using the default Attachment
Manager settings, and the network computer that the file is saved to from an
E-mail attachment is using NTFS, then in Windows Explorer, right-click on
the file name, then select "Properties" on the pop-up menu and look at the
bottom right of the Properties dialog window. If the "Unblock" button is
visible, then you know that the Attachment Manager was at work protecting
the computer, and the user forgot to unblock the file after downloading it.
If the user didn't forget and already unblocked the file, then you won't see
the "Unblock" button. For more information on this security feature, please
see the following Web page:

http://support.microsoft.com/Default.aspx?id=883260

The user can easily cover his tracks by downloading the file from the E-mail
attachment or copying it from the CD, creating a new MDB file on his own
computer, then importing all of the objects from the original into the new
file, then copying this new file out to the network. But when this happens,
all of the objects' "created" date will be the same and all objects will be
created within seconds of each other as well. So if the user really wanted
to cover his tracks, then he'd fiddle with his computer's system clock and
change the date and time, create the new MDB file, import an object or two
from the original file, then change the system clock again, import another
object or two, change the system clock, . . . et cetera, so that all of the
objects had different dates and times of creation, like a normal MDB file
would have on an Access developer's computer.

Computer forensics can usually determine which computer was used to create
an MDB file if the file wasn't created that long ago (and hasn't made
significant changes in the meantime, such as replacing the hard drive), but
that's an expensive method to determine the file's origins.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.
"Mell via AccessMonster.com" <u18304@uwe> wrote in message
news:6066d2645c901@uwe...
You are silly.....

no actually, quite the opposite, I have a feeling someone else is doing so
on
my time........

Please advise..............
Mel

'69 Camaro wrote:
Hi, Mell.
if application sits on a (work) server/network, the IT people know the
application is sitting there, but is there a way they can find out if
that
application was put there from a CD or email or created at work?


Yes. What have you been doing that this is a concern to you? Are you
asking for our help to cover your tracks? ;-)

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.
Is there a way to find out where an application was created from?

[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
Hint: It's not on a client/server database, just native jet database mdb
created on Access 2003 (default 2000)...


--
Message posted via AccessMonster.com
http://www.accessmonster.com/Uwe/For...ccess/200605/1

May 17 '06 #4

P: n/a
Hey that was great information.........

Thank you so kindly...

Tell me, is the below link your site/business/individual?

Good job............................................... .......................
............

Sorry this is not about the message.................................

People tell me that most indivual owners/developers - Ms Access usually own
there own business as a second job b/c not reliable enough for steady income
(keep in mind) individual not big boys............... Is this true?

'69 Camaro wrote:
Hi, Mell.

The two most common methods of detection depend upon the computer's
operating system. Neither of these methods is absolute proof, but I'll
describe the tell-tale signs that the MDB file was downloaded from either an
E-mail or the Internet, or copied from a CD, and you can make your own
decision whether or not to confront the individual.

If the user's computer is Windows 2000 Professional and he copies an MDB
file from a CD to a hard drive (either his own hard drive or a network hard
drive), then the "Read-only" file attribute will still be set from when the
file was written to the CD, unless the user manually unchecks this attribute
after copying the file to the hard drive. (In Windows Explorer, right-click
on the file name, then select "Properties" on the pop-up menu and look at
the "Read-only" check box at the bottom of the Properties dialog window.)
Windows XP will automatically change the "Read-only" attribute when the file
is copied from the CD, so there's no way to tell it was copied from the CD
just by looking at this attribute afterwards.

If the user's computer is Windows XP SP-2, is using the default Attachment
Manager settings, and the network computer that the file is saved to from an
E-mail attachment is using NTFS, then in Windows Explorer, right-click on
the file name, then select "Properties" on the pop-up menu and look at the
bottom right of the Properties dialog window. If the "Unblock" button is
visible, then you know that the Attachment Manager was at work protecting
the computer, and the user forgot to unblock the file after downloading it.
If the user didn't forget and already unblocked the file, then you won't see
the "Unblock" button. For more information on this security feature, please
see the following Web page:

http://support.microsoft.com/Default.aspx?id=883260

The user can easily cover his tracks by downloading the file from the E-mail
attachment or copying it from the CD, creating a new MDB file on his own
computer, then importing all of the objects from the original into the new
file, then copying this new file out to the network. But when this happens,
all of the objects' "created" date will be the same and all objects will be
created within seconds of each other as well. So if the user really wanted
to cover his tracks, then he'd fiddle with his computer's system clock and
change the date and time, create the new MDB file, import an object or two
from the original file, then change the system clock again, import another
object or two, change the system clock, . . . et cetera, so that all of the
objects had different dates and times of creation, like a normal MDB file
would have on an Access developer's computer.

Computer forensics can usually determine which computer was used to create
an MDB file if the file wasn't created that long ago (and hasn't made
significant changes in the meantime, such as replacing the hard drive), but
that's an expensive method to determine the file's origins.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.
You are silly.....

[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
Hint: It's not on a client/server database, just native jet database mdb
created on Access 2003 (default 2000)...


--
Message posted via AccessMonster.com
http://www.accessmonster.com/Uwe/For...ccess/200605/1
May 18 '06 #5

P: n/a
email me if you would like to reply about my off the topic question so I
don't cludder the board.....
mi*******@hotmail.com

Mell wrote:
Hey that was great information.........

Thank you so kindly...

Tell me, is the below link your site/business/individual?

Good job............................................... .......................
...........

Sorry this is not about the message.................................

People tell me that most indivual owners/developers - Ms Access usually own
there own business as a second job b/c not reliable enough for steady income
(keep in mind) individual not big boys............... Is this true?
Hi, Mell.

[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> Hint: It's not on a client/server database, just native jet database mdb
> created on Access 2003 (default 2000)...


--
Message posted via AccessMonster.com
http://www.accessmonster.com/Uwe/For...ccess/200605/1
May 18 '06 #6

P: n/a
> The user can easily cover his tracks by downloading the file from the
E-mail attachment or copying it from the CD, creating a new MDB file on
his own computer, then importing all of the objects from the original into
the new file, then copying this new file out to the network. But when
this happens, all of the objects' "created" date will be the same and all
objects will be created within seconds of each other as well. So if the
user really wanted to cover his tracks, then he'd fiddle with his
computer's system clock and change the date and time, create the new MDB
file, import an object or two from the original file, then change the
system clock again, import another object or two, change the system clock,
. . . et cetera, so that all of the objects had different dates and times
of creation, like a normal MDB file would have on an Access developer's
computer.
I don't know about you, but whenever I do a compact on an MDB file, all of
the objects get a new created time, which is the same for all objects (I
suspect this is because when a compact is performed, a new MDB is created,
and the objects are moved into the new MDB file; still, the compact routine
should reset the created dates to reflect the original, but it doesn't).
Thus, having all objects have the same created date/time would identical to
creating objects from scratch but then performing a compact on the database.

Neil


Computer forensics can usually determine which computer was used to create
an MDB file if the file wasn't created that long ago (and hasn't made
significant changes in the meantime, such as replacing the hard drive),
but that's an expensive method to determine the file's origins.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.
"Mell via AccessMonster.com" <u18304@uwe> wrote in message
news:6066d2645c901@uwe...
You are silly.....

no actually, quite the opposite, I have a feeling someone else is doing
so on
my time........

Please advise..............
Mel

'69 Camaro wrote:
Hi, Mell.

if application sits on a (work) server/network, the IT people know the
application is sitting there, but is there a way they can find out if
that
application was put there from a CD or email or created at work?

Yes. What have you been doing that this is a concern to you? Are you
asking for our help to cover your tracks? ;-)

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.

Is there a way to find out where an application was created from?

[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
Hint: It's not on a client/server database, just native jet database
mdb
created on Access 2003 (default 2000)...


--
Message posted via AccessMonster.com
http://www.accessmonster.com/Uwe/For...ccess/200605/1


May 18 '06 #7

P: n/a
Another thing would be to simply look at the database properties and see
who's listed as the author. Again, per the other fellow's note, he could
create a new MDB and just import objects into it. But, assuming he doesn't,
then the author would be someone other than himself (or whoever is the
default on the computer he works on).

Neil

"Mell via AccessMonster.com" <u18304@uwe> wrote in message
news:6066d2645c901@uwe...
You are silly.....

no actually, quite the opposite, I have a feeling someone else is doing so
on
my time........

Please advise..............
Mel

'69 Camaro wrote:
Hi, Mell.
if application sits on a (work) server/network, the IT people know the
application is sitting there, but is there a way they can find out if
that
application was put there from a CD or email or created at work?


Yes. What have you been doing that this is a concern to you? Are you
asking for our help to cover your tracks? ;-)

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.
Is there a way to find out where an application was created from?

[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
Hint: It's not on a client/server database, just native jet database mdb
created on Access 2003 (default 2000)...


--
Message posted via AccessMonster.com
http://www.accessmonster.com/Uwe/For...ccess/200605/1

May 18 '06 #8

P: n/a
Neil,

Thank you......

That does make sense....

Neil wrote:
Another thing would be to simply look at the database properties and see
who's listed as the author. Again, per the other fellow's note, he could
create a new MDB and just import objects into it. But, assuming he doesn't,
then the author would be someone other than himself (or whoever is the
default on the computer he works on).

Neil
You are silly.....

[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
Hint: It's not on a client/server database, just native jet database mdb
created on Access 2003 (default 2000)...


--
Message posted via AccessMonster.com
http://www.accessmonster.com/Uwe/For...ccess/200605/1
May 19 '06 #9

P: n/a
Hi, Mell.
Tell me, is the below link your site/business/individual?
Access.QBuilt.com is one of five commercial and non-commercial subdomains
for Q-Built Solutions, a small business which employs five consultants. I'm
one of these consultants.
People tell me that most indivual owners/developers - Ms Access usually
own
there own business as a second job b/c not reliable enough for steady
income
(keep in mind) individual not big boys............... Is this true?
That's been my experience, too. The market is so flooded with people who
aren't yet competent in Access -- but pass themselves off as expert Access
developers because they can use the built-in wizards to create forms and
reports to dazzle computer-challenged business owners and managers -- that
many of the ones who are competent Access developers work in other
technologies or industries for their main income. Businesses just aren't
willing to pay money for what's widely percieved as "so easy that any monkey
can do it," and "tinker toy" applications that cause a wide range of
problems, when, in fact, it's the lack of competence of the Access
developers (hired 'em "real cheap!") and occasionally the network
administrators who have caused the vast majority of the problems being
blamed on Access.

The only money I've ever made from working with Access was several years ago
when I was a corporate Access developer for a little more than a year. I'm
an Oracle DBA consultant now for larger businesses, but I also do computer
networking/administration and occasional database-driven Web sites powered
by MySQL for small businesses (only because MySQL is free with their Web
hosting packages).

I've seen the tremendous need in small- and medium-sized businesses for
small, stable database applications that Access would be perfect for, but
almost none of these business owners are willing to pay for that database
application, even when they know the computer automation will save thousands
of man-hours per year. Well, some are willing to pay a high school student
(who has no interest in computers or databases) to spend thousands of hours
to build Access applications that don't work very well -- because these
students work for minimum wage, which is a whole lot cheaper (at least in
these business owners' minds) than spending hundreds of dollars for an
expert to build it correctly in a matter of a few hours.

You want to help these people, but you can't convince them that they need a
competent Access developer because they firmly believe that they've got a
bargain database application, and it works just fine -- except for the long
list of things that don't, including the safeguarding of data integrity.
But it's "good enough" for them.

But I've seen worse. Some business owners think that they can't afford to
hire IT people, so they spend thousands of hours foregoing business
opportunities worth many tens of thousands of dollars (or possibly hundreds
of thousands of dollars per year) while they learn to build their own
computer network with disparate, outdated equipment -- picked it up "real
cheap!" -- and build a mission-critical Access database application that
they intend to run their entire business with, but it just doesn't work.

You want to help these people, too, but you can't afford to pay for the
minimum equipment required (they aren't willing to pay to replace their
bargain equipment that doesn't work together), and you can't afford to spend
two weeks or more fixing their multiple computer, network, virus, and spam
problems before even starting on a database application, and the $100 for
your time doesn't even begin to cover the gasoline bill for the daily trips
to their office for an entire month. ("Hey, it took me more than 2,000
hours and I still can't get it to work, but this is easy for you experts.
You can finish my application in a few days, because it's more than 95%
done! If you don't want the job, I can hire a high school dropout for half
that price!") And they require you to come to their office daily to do the
software development on your own laptop, even after you've fixed their
computer and network problems (at no charge, because the owner isn't willing
to pay you to fix the problems he doesn't believe he created that prevent
Microsoft Office from being installed on each of his computers and a
database from being networked). This is because even though they can't
spare one of their own computers and desks for you to work on, they refuse
to pay you for all the hours you'd be wasting in front of the T.V. or on the
phone talking to your kids instead of working on their application if the
manager wasn't there watching you like a hawk. And you try to explain to
the owner that this working arrangement means that, for tax purposes, you
are a temporary employee of his and he's required by law to pay half the
Social Security taxes on the money you earn from him, but he refuses because
you're a "professional consultant," not one of his employees.

So it's rather difficult to make a steady income if you're a consultant
looking for customers, and you only work with Access. But perhaps others
have had more favorable business experiences working with Access in their
geographical locations.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.
"Mell via AccessMonster.com" <u18304@uwe> wrote in message
news:6070a3d13747d@uwe... Hey that was great information.........

Thank you so kindly...

Tell me, is the below link your site/business/individual?

Good
job............................................... .......................
...........

Sorry this is not about the message.................................

People tell me that most indivual owners/developers - Ms Access usually
own
there own business as a second job b/c not reliable enough for steady
income
(keep in mind) individual not big boys............... Is this true?

'69 Camaro wrote:
Hi, Mell.

The two most common methods of detection depend upon the computer's
operating system. Neither of these methods is absolute proof, but I'll
describe the tell-tale signs that the MDB file was downloaded from either
an
E-mail or the Internet, or copied from a CD, and you can make your own
decision whether or not to confront the individual.

If the user's computer is Windows 2000 Professional and he copies an MDB
file from a CD to a hard drive (either his own hard drive or a network
hard
drive), then the "Read-only" file attribute will still be set from when
the
file was written to the CD, unless the user manually unchecks this
attribute
after copying the file to the hard drive. (In Windows Explorer,
right-click
on the file name, then select "Properties" on the pop-up menu and look at
the "Read-only" check box at the bottom of the Properties dialog window.)
Windows XP will automatically change the "Read-only" attribute when the
file
is copied from the CD, so there's no way to tell it was copied from the CD
just by looking at this attribute afterwards.

If the user's computer is Windows XP SP-2, is using the default Attachment
Manager settings, and the network computer that the file is saved to from
an
E-mail attachment is using NTFS, then in Windows Explorer, right-click on
the file name, then select "Properties" on the pop-up menu and look at the
bottom right of the Properties dialog window. If the "Unblock" button is
visible, then you know that the Attachment Manager was at work protecting
the computer, and the user forgot to unblock the file after downloading
it.
If the user didn't forget and already unblocked the file, then you won't
see
the "Unblock" button. For more information on this security feature,
please
see the following Web page:

http://support.microsoft.com/Default.aspx?id=883260

The user can easily cover his tracks by downloading the file from the
E-mail
attachment or copying it from the CD, creating a new MDB file on his own
computer, then importing all of the objects from the original into the new
file, then copying this new file out to the network. But when this
happens,
all of the objects' "created" date will be the same and all objects will
be
created within seconds of each other as well. So if the user really
wanted
to cover his tracks, then he'd fiddle with his computer's system clock and
change the date and time, create the new MDB file, import an object or two
from the original file, then change the system clock again, import another
object or two, change the system clock, . . . et cetera, so that all of
the
objects had different dates and times of creation, like a normal MDB file
would have on an Access developer's computer.

Computer forensics can usually determine which computer was used to create
an MDB file if the file wasn't created that long ago (and hasn't made
significant changes in the meantime, such as replacing the hard drive),
but
that's an expensive method to determine the file's origins.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.
You are silly.....

[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> Hint: It's not on a client/server database, just native jet database
> mdb
> created on Access 2003 (default 2000)...


--
Message posted via AccessMonster.com
http://www.accessmonster.com/Uwe/For...ccess/200605/1

May 19 '06 #10

P: n/a
Hi, Neil.
when a compact is performed, a new MDB is created, and the objects are
moved into the new MDB file; still, the compact routine should reset the
created dates to reflect the original, but it doesn't).


A new MDB file is created when the file is compacted, and then everything is
imported into the new file from the original file -- which is supposed to
retain the object creation dates. Perhaps you don't have the correct
service packs installed on your computer. Which version of Access and
service packs for Access, Jet, and MDAC are installed?

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.
"Neil" <no****@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:HR**************@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net...
The user can easily cover his tracks by downloading the file from the
E-mail attachment or copying it from the CD, creating a new MDB file on
his own computer, then importing all of the objects from the original
into the new file, then copying this new file out to the network. But
when this happens, all of the objects' "created" date will be the same
and all objects will be created within seconds of each other as well. So
if the user really wanted to cover his tracks, then he'd fiddle with his
computer's system clock and change the date and time, create the new MDB
file, import an object or two from the original file, then change the
system clock again, import another object or two, change the system
clock, . . . et cetera, so that all of the objects had different dates
and times of creation, like a normal MDB file would have on an Access
developer's computer.


I don't know about you, but whenever I do a compact on an MDB file, all of
the objects get a new created time, which is the same for all objects (I
suspect this is because when a compact is performed, a new MDB is created,
and the objects are moved into the new MDB file; still, the compact
routine should reset the created dates to reflect the original, but it
doesn't). Thus, having all objects have the same created date/time would
identical to creating objects from scratch but then performing a compact
on the database.

Neil


Computer forensics can usually determine which computer was used to
create an MDB file if the file wasn't created that long ago (and hasn't
made significant changes in the meantime, such as replacing the hard
drive), but that's an expensive method to determine the file's origins.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.
"Mell via AccessMonster.com" <u18304@uwe> wrote in message
news:6066d2645c901@uwe...
You are silly.....

no actually, quite the opposite, I have a feeling someone else is doing
so on
my time........

Please advise..............
Mel

'69 Camaro wrote:
Hi, Mell.

> if application sits on a (work) server/network, the IT people know the
> application is sitting there, but is there a way they can find out if
> that
> application was put there from a CD or email or created at work?

Yes. What have you been doing that this is a concern to you? Are you
asking for our help to cover your tracks? ;-)

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and
tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.

> Is there a way to find out where an application was created from?
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Hint: It's not on a client/server database, just native jet database
> mdb
> created on Access 2003 (default 2000)...

--
Message posted via AccessMonster.com
http://www.accessmonster.com/Uwe/For...ccess/200605/1



May 19 '06 #11

P: n/a
Yea, you are not alone with your experience in this or perseption. I hear the
same from others as well.
I find that some businesses will pay (not alot), but just want a basic
tracking system with some bells. The bigger companies, I would think they
would not want to just use Access with native jet unless BE on SQL, etc?
I must say that the real experts are the ones that originally created this
software. Ms Access has so many things that it can do that it's hard to know
it from head to toe. Nevertheless, I feel if an application has been created
for the customers needs and it is functional, it has served it's purpose and
A BIG THANK YOU to those SMART SOFTWARE ENGINEERS. I just love this program,
I use this board for questions alot, I am no expert, but I don't give up
either, if I don't know, it's certainly not hard to ask or look up.

'69 Camaro wrote:
Hi, Mell.
Tell me, is the below link your site/business/individual?


Access.QBuilt.com is one of five commercial and non-commercial subdomains
for Q-Built Solutions, a small business which employs five consultants. I'm
one of these consultants.
People tell me that most indivual owners/developers - Ms Access usually
own
there own business as a second job b/c not reliable enough for steady
income
(keep in mind) individual not big boys............... Is this true?


That's been my experience, too. The market is so flooded with people who
aren't yet competent in Access -- but pass themselves off as expert Access
developers because they can use the built-in wizards to create forms and
reports to dazzle computer-challenged business owners and managers -- that
many of the ones who are competent Access developers work in other
technologies or industries for their main income. Businesses just aren't
willing to pay money for what's widely percieved as "so easy that any monkey
can do it," and "tinker toy" applications that cause a wide range of
problems, when, in fact, it's the lack of competence of the Access
developers (hired 'em "real cheap!") and occasionally the network
administrators who have caused the vast majority of the problems being
blamed on Access.

The only money I've ever made from working with Access was several years ago
when I was a corporate Access developer for a little more than a year. I'm
an Oracle DBA consultant now for larger businesses, but I also do computer
networking/administration and occasional database-driven Web sites powered
by MySQL for small businesses (only because MySQL is free with their Web
hosting packages).

I've seen the tremendous need in small- and medium-sized businesses for
small, stable database applications that Access would be perfect for, but
almost none of these business owners are willing to pay for that database
application, even when they know the computer automation will save thousands
of man-hours per year. Well, some are willing to pay a high school student
(who has no interest in computers or databases) to spend thousands of hours
to build Access applications that don't work very well -- because these
students work for minimum wage, which is a whole lot cheaper (at least in
these business owners' minds) than spending hundreds of dollars for an
expert to build it correctly in a matter of a few hours.

You want to help these people, but you can't convince them that they need a
competent Access developer because they firmly believe that they've got a
bargain database application, and it works just fine -- except for the long
list of things that don't, including the safeguarding of data integrity.
But it's "good enough" for them.

But I've seen worse. Some business owners think that they can't afford to
hire IT people, so they spend thousands of hours foregoing business
opportunities worth many tens of thousands of dollars (or possibly hundreds
of thousands of dollars per year) while they learn to build their own
computer network with disparate, outdated equipment -- picked it up "real
cheap!" -- and build a mission-critical Access database application that
they intend to run their entire business with, but it just doesn't work.

You want to help these people, too, but you can't afford to pay for the
minimum equipment required (they aren't willing to pay to replace their
bargain equipment that doesn't work together), and you can't afford to spend
two weeks or more fixing their multiple computer, network, virus, and spam
problems before even starting on a database application, and the $100 for
your time doesn't even begin to cover the gasoline bill for the daily trips
to their office for an entire month. ("Hey, it took me more than 2,000
hours and I still can't get it to work, but this is easy for you experts.
You can finish my application in a few days, because it's more than 95%
done! If you don't want the job, I can hire a high school dropout for half
that price!") And they require you to come to their office daily to do the
software development on your own laptop, even after you've fixed their
computer and network problems (at no charge, because the owner isn't willing
to pay you to fix the problems he doesn't believe he created that prevent
Microsoft Office from being installed on each of his computers and a
database from being networked). This is because even though they can't
spare one of their own computers and desks for you to work on, they refuse
to pay you for all the hours you'd be wasting in front of the T.V. or on the
phone talking to your kids instead of working on their application if the
manager wasn't there watching you like a hawk. And you try to explain to
the owner that this working arrangement means that, for tax purposes, you
are a temporary employee of his and he's required by law to pay half the
Social Security taxes on the money you earn from him, but he refuses because
you're a "professional consultant," not one of his employees.

So it's rather difficult to make a steady income if you're a consultant
looking for customers, and you only work with Access. But perhaps others
have had more favorable business experiences working with Access in their
geographical locations.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.
Hey that was great information.........

[quoted text clipped - 94 lines]
>> mdb
>> created on Access 2003 (default 2000)...


--
Message posted via http://www.accessmonster.com
May 23 '06 #12

P: n/a
Well, I've had somewhat more luck making a living at it, but I must say that
the description of the situation is perfect.

Over and over again I see people who are not qualified at all to design a
data-based application being given the assignment to do so, simply because
Access makes SOME parts of doing that so easy that an office worker can.
They hit the wall almost immediately, of course, then the blame now falls on
Access rather than the manager who did not understand the task and therefore
assigned it to someone completely unsuited to it.

This accounts in large measure for the widespread opinion that Access is a
"toy" or a lightweight tool. And once that wall is hit, the manager will
not be willing to reassess and realize that the limit is not Access and that
he or she is just going to have to shell out the money for a competent
designer.

Ahh, well...

"Mell via AccessMonster.com" <u18304@uwe> wrote in message
news:60b1155dc1814@uwe...
Yea, you are not alone with your experience in this or perseption. I hear
the
same from others as well.
I find that some businesses will pay (not alot), but just want a basic
tracking system with some bells. The bigger companies, I would think they
would not want to just use Access with native jet unless BE on SQL, etc?
I must say that the real experts are the ones that originally created this
software. Ms Access has so many things that it can do that it's hard to
know
it from head to toe. Nevertheless, I feel if an application has been
created
for the customers needs and it is functional, it has served it's purpose
and
A BIG THANK YOU to those SMART SOFTWARE ENGINEERS. I just love this
program,
I use this board for questions alot, I am no expert, but I don't give up
either, if I don't know, it's certainly not hard to ask or look up.

'69 Camaro wrote:
Hi, Mell.
Tell me, is the below link your site/business/individual?


Access.QBuilt.com is one of five commercial and non-commercial subdomains
for Q-Built Solutions, a small business which employs five consultants.
I'm
one of these consultants.
People tell me that most indivual owners/developers - Ms Access usually
own
there own business as a second job b/c not reliable enough for steady
income
(keep in mind) individual not big boys............... Is this true?


That's been my experience, too. The market is so flooded with people who
aren't yet competent in Access -- but pass themselves off as expert Access
developers because they can use the built-in wizards to create forms and
reports to dazzle computer-challenged business owners and managers -- that
many of the ones who are competent Access developers work in other
technologies or industries for their main income. Businesses just aren't
willing to pay money for what's widely percieved as "so easy that any
monkey
can do it," and "tinker toy" applications that cause a wide range of
problems, when, in fact, it's the lack of competence of the Access
developers (hired 'em "real cheap!") and occasionally the network
administrators who have caused the vast majority of the problems being
blamed on Access.

The only money I've ever made from working with Access was several years
ago
when I was a corporate Access developer for a little more than a year.
I'm
an Oracle DBA consultant now for larger businesses, but I also do computer
networking/administration and occasional database-driven Web sites powered
by MySQL for small businesses (only because MySQL is free with their Web
hosting packages).

I've seen the tremendous need in small- and medium-sized businesses for
small, stable database applications that Access would be perfect for, but
almost none of these business owners are willing to pay for that database
application, even when they know the computer automation will save
thousands
of man-hours per year. Well, some are willing to pay a high school
student
(who has no interest in computers or databases) to spend thousands of
hours
to build Access applications that don't work very well -- because these
students work for minimum wage, which is a whole lot cheaper (at least in
these business owners' minds) than spending hundreds of dollars for an
expert to build it correctly in a matter of a few hours.

You want to help these people, but you can't convince them that they need
a
competent Access developer because they firmly believe that they've got a
bargain database application, and it works just fine -- except for the
long
list of things that don't, including the safeguarding of data integrity.
But it's "good enough" for them.

But I've seen worse. Some business owners think that they can't afford to
hire IT people, so they spend thousands of hours foregoing business
opportunities worth many tens of thousands of dollars (or possibly
hundreds
of thousands of dollars per year) while they learn to build their own
computer network with disparate, outdated equipment -- picked it up "real
cheap!" -- and build a mission-critical Access database application that
they intend to run their entire business with, but it just doesn't work.

You want to help these people, too, but you can't afford to pay for the
minimum equipment required (they aren't willing to pay to replace their
bargain equipment that doesn't work together), and you can't afford to
spend
two weeks or more fixing their multiple computer, network, virus, and spam
problems before even starting on a database application, and the $100 for
your time doesn't even begin to cover the gasoline bill for the daily
trips
to their office for an entire month. ("Hey, it took me more than 2,000
hours and I still can't get it to work, but this is easy for you experts.
You can finish my application in a few days, because it's more than 95%
done! If you don't want the job, I can hire a high school dropout for
half
that price!") And they require you to come to their office daily to do
the
software development on your own laptop, even after you've fixed their
computer and network problems (at no charge, because the owner isn't
willing
to pay you to fix the problems he doesn't believe he created that prevent
Microsoft Office from being installed on each of his computers and a
database from being networked). This is because even though they can't
spare one of their own computers and desks for you to work on, they refuse
to pay you for all the hours you'd be wasting in front of the T.V. or on
the
phone talking to your kids instead of working on their application if the
manager wasn't there watching you like a hawk. And you try to explain to
the owner that this working arrangement means that, for tax purposes, you
are a temporary employee of his and he's required by law to pay half the
Social Security taxes on the money you earn from him, but he refuses
because
you're a "professional consultant," not one of his employees.

So it's rather difficult to make a steady income if you're a consultant
looking for customers, and you only work with Access. But perhaps others
have had more favorable business experiences working with Access in their
geographical locations.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.
Hey that was great information.........

[quoted text clipped - 94 lines]
>>> mdb
>>> created on Access 2003 (default 2000)...


--
Message posted via http://www.accessmonster.com

May 23 '06 #13

P: n/a
Hi, Mell.
The bigger companies, I would think they
would not want to just use Access with native jet unless BE on SQL, etc?
One would think so, but that's generally not the case. The bigger companies
have IT departments that build the in-house software applications, but their
schedules are so backlogged that many departments will use their own non-IT
employees to build a database application or use their department budget to
hire a contractor to build the application. Sometimes these applications
use the company's "official" database engine for the back end, but more
often than not, it's Jet. And it's not a split database, either.

Everyone in the department is using the application, then other departments
discover its usefulness, and they start sharing it, too, since the Access
file is in a shared directory on the network. The application becomes
mission-critical, it crashes, gets corrupted, and IT is called in. IT
starts screaming bloody murder, because they were never consulted about
building the mission-critical application, so it wasn't built with any
standard practices of software development in mind. IT has to drop
everything to fix the mission-critical application, which usually means
redesigning and building it from scratch -- in IT's software development
environment of choice, which is rarely Access because they don't have any
competent Access developers. The end result is that Access gets blamed for
being inadequate for an enterprise-level database application, not the lack
of competence in the Access developer, or poor implementation and poor
planning on management's part.
A BIG THANK YOU to those SMART SOFTWARE ENGINEERS. I just love this
program
Access is incredibly customizable, and I have to admit that I use it a lot
to automate tasks that have nothing to do with data storage on Windows
computers. And the ability to do "quickie" prototypes to show a proof of
concept is invaluable.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.
"Mell via AccessMonster.com" <u18304@uwe> wrote in message
news:60b1155dc1814@uwe... Yea, you are not alone with your experience in this or perseption. I hear
the
same from others as well.
I find that some businesses will pay (not alot), but just want a basic
tracking system with some bells. The bigger companies, I would think they
would not want to just use Access with native jet unless BE on SQL, etc?
I must say that the real experts are the ones that originally created this
software. Ms Access has so many things that it can do that it's hard to
know
it from head to toe. Nevertheless, I feel if an application has been
created
for the customers needs and it is functional, it has served it's purpose
and
A BIG THANK YOU to those SMART SOFTWARE ENGINEERS. I just love this
program,
I use this board for questions alot, I am no expert, but I don't give up
either, if I don't know, it's certainly not hard to ask or look up.

'69 Camaro wrote:
Hi, Mell.
Tell me, is the below link your site/business/individual?


Access.QBuilt.com is one of five commercial and non-commercial subdomains
for Q-Built Solutions, a small business which employs five consultants.
I'm
one of these consultants.
People tell me that most indivual owners/developers - Ms Access usually
own
there own business as a second job b/c not reliable enough for steady
income
(keep in mind) individual not big boys............... Is this true?


That's been my experience, too. The market is so flooded with people who
aren't yet competent in Access -- but pass themselves off as expert Access
developers because they can use the built-in wizards to create forms and
reports to dazzle computer-challenged business owners and managers -- that
many of the ones who are competent Access developers work in other
technologies or industries for their main income. Businesses just aren't
willing to pay money for what's widely percieved as "so easy that any
monkey
can do it," and "tinker toy" applications that cause a wide range of
problems, when, in fact, it's the lack of competence of the Access
developers (hired 'em "real cheap!") and occasionally the network
administrators who have caused the vast majority of the problems being
blamed on Access.

The only money I've ever made from working with Access was several years
ago
when I was a corporate Access developer for a little more than a year.
I'm
an Oracle DBA consultant now for larger businesses, but I also do computer
networking/administration and occasional database-driven Web sites powered
by MySQL for small businesses (only because MySQL is free with their Web
hosting packages).

I've seen the tremendous need in small- and medium-sized businesses for
small, stable database applications that Access would be perfect for, but
almost none of these business owners are willing to pay for that database
application, even when they know the computer automation will save
thousands
of man-hours per year. Well, some are willing to pay a high school
student
(who has no interest in computers or databases) to spend thousands of
hours
to build Access applications that don't work very well -- because these
students work for minimum wage, which is a whole lot cheaper (at least in
these business owners' minds) than spending hundreds of dollars for an
expert to build it correctly in a matter of a few hours.

You want to help these people, but you can't convince them that they need
a
competent Access developer because they firmly believe that they've got a
bargain database application, and it works just fine -- except for the
long
list of things that don't, including the safeguarding of data integrity.
But it's "good enough" for them.

But I've seen worse. Some business owners think that they can't afford to
hire IT people, so they spend thousands of hours foregoing business
opportunities worth many tens of thousands of dollars (or possibly
hundreds
of thousands of dollars per year) while they learn to build their own
computer network with disparate, outdated equipment -- picked it up "real
cheap!" -- and build a mission-critical Access database application that
they intend to run their entire business with, but it just doesn't work.

You want to help these people, too, but you can't afford to pay for the
minimum equipment required (they aren't willing to pay to replace their
bargain equipment that doesn't work together), and you can't afford to
spend
two weeks or more fixing their multiple computer, network, virus, and spam
problems before even starting on a database application, and the $100 for
your time doesn't even begin to cover the gasoline bill for the daily
trips
to their office for an entire month. ("Hey, it took me more than 2,000
hours and I still can't get it to work, but this is easy for you experts.
You can finish my application in a few days, because it's more than 95%
done! If you don't want the job, I can hire a high school dropout for
half
that price!") And they require you to come to their office daily to do
the
software development on your own laptop, even after you've fixed their
computer and network problems (at no charge, because the owner isn't
willing
to pay you to fix the problems he doesn't believe he created that prevent
Microsoft Office from being installed on each of his computers and a
database from being networked). This is because even though they can't
spare one of their own computers and desks for you to work on, they refuse
to pay you for all the hours you'd be wasting in front of the T.V. or on
the
phone talking to your kids instead of working on their application if the
manager wasn't there watching you like a hawk. And you try to explain to
the owner that this working arrangement means that, for tax purposes, you
are a temporary employee of his and he's required by law to pay half the
Social Security taxes on the money you earn from him, but he refuses
because
you're a "professional consultant," not one of his employees.

So it's rather difficult to make a steady income if you're a consultant
looking for customers, and you only work with Access. But perhaps others
have had more favorable business experiences working with Access in their
geographical locations.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.
Hey that was great information.........

[quoted text clipped - 94 lines]
>>> mdb
>>> created on Access 2003 (default 2000)...


--
Message posted via http://www.accessmonster.com

May 25 '06 #14

P: n/a
"'69 Camaro" <Fo**************************@Spameater.orgZERO_SP AM> wrote
in news:DM********************@adelphia.com:
Hi, Mell.
The bigger companies, I would think they
would not want to just use Access with native jet unless BE on SQL,
etc?


One would think so, but that's generally not the case. The bigger
companies have IT departments that build the in-house software
applications, but their schedules are so backlogged that many
departments will use their own non-IT employees to build a database
application or use their department budget to hire a contractor to
build the application. Sometimes these applications use the company's
"official" database engine for the back end, but more often than not,
it's Jet. And it's not a split database, either.

Everyone in the department is using the application, then other
departments discover its usefulness, and they start sharing it, too,
since the Access file is in a shared directory on the network. The
application becomes mission-critical, it crashes, gets corrupted, and
IT is called in. IT starts screaming bloody murder, because they were
never consulted about building the mission-critical application, so it
wasn't built with any standard practices of software development in
mind.

I thought my experiences might be unique, yet you describe them to a T.

--
Lyle Fairfield
May 25 '06 #15

P: n/a
DFS
'69 Camaro wrote:
Hi, Mell.
The bigger companies, I would think they
would not want to just use Access with native jet unless BE on SQL,
etc?
One would think so, but that's generally not the case. The bigger
companies have IT departments that build the in-house software
applications, but their schedules are so backlogged that many
departments will use their own non-IT employees to build a database
application or use their department budget to hire a contractor to
build the application. Sometimes these applications use the
company's "official" database engine for the back end, but more often
than not, it's Jet.


Yep. That's EXACTLY the situation I've encountered, and have worked under
for many years. It's pretty much ideal, I think, 'cause the ball is in your
court. You often end up being the business analyst, data architect, DBA,
data analyst, interface designer, and report writer. What that can mean is
you end up being almost indispensable.

And it's not a split database, either.
Here I diverge with you. I ALWAYS - no matter what - split the database off
from the app and presentation layer.
Everyone in the department is using the application, then other
departments discover its usefulness, and they start sharing it, too,
since the Access file is in a shared directory on the network. The
application becomes mission-critical, it crashes, gets corrupted, and
IT is called in.
Well, it doesn't necessarily crash (too often for my taste), and when it
does IT usually doesn't get called in (if the original developer is
available).

IT starts screaming bloody murder, because they
were never consulted about building the mission-critical application,
so it wasn't built with any standard practices of software
development in mind.
True. Or meetings were held upfront, and IT declined to cooperate from the
beginning, and won't help now.

IT has to drop everything to fix the
mission-critical application, which usually means redesigning and
building it from scratch -- in IT's software development environment
of choice, which is rarely Access because they don't have any
competent Access developers.
From what I've seen, big companies rarely have competent developers of ANY
kind on staff. DBAs and business analysts and project managers, yes. But a
talented Java or VB or Access developer is usually going to be a freelancer.

Some of the Access/SQL Server/Oracle apps I've created have been taken
"internal" and are now maintained by IT, but they're rarely improved, and
I've never seen one rewritten. (not that it doesn't happen, just not to me)

A BIG THANK YOU to those SMART SOFTWARE ENGINEERS. I just love this
program


Access is incredibly customizable, and I have to admit that I use it
a lot to automate tasks that have nothing to do with data storage on
Windows computers.


Yes. What kinds of things did you build?

I built an Access front-end solely to automate an email process. The users
were sitting there and manually cutting and pasting email addresses from a
spreadsheet, manually adding an attachment, and manually sending it.
Hundreds of times a week! In a few hours I had a small system for them, and
they were clicking to import the entire email list, clicking to choose the
folder where the attachments were stored, and clicking to auto-attach and
auto-send the emails - with fewer errors and less effort. That was a big
ROI for the client - I should have charged by the transaction:)

I also wrote a rudimentary web spider in Access, a simple ftp automation
program, and an ebay search tool.

Modules | New | Tools | Reference, and the world is yours.
And the ability to do "quickie" prototypes to
show a proof of concept is invaluable.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and
tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for
contact info.

"Mell via AccessMonster.com" <u18304@uwe> wrote in message
news:60b1155dc1814@uwe...
Yea, you are not alone with your experience in this or perseption. I
hear the
same from others as well.
I find that some businesses will pay (not alot), but just want a
basic tracking system with some bells. The bigger companies, I would
think they would not want to just use Access with native jet unless
BE on SQL, etc? I must say that the real experts are the ones that
originally created this software. Ms Access has so many things that
it can do that it's hard to know
it from head to toe. Nevertheless, I feel if an application has been
created
for the customers needs and it is functional, it has served it's
purpose and
A BIG THANK YOU to those SMART SOFTWARE ENGINEERS. I just love this
program,
I use this board for questions alot, I am no expert, but I don't
give up either, if I don't know, it's certainly not hard to ask or
look up. '69 Camaro wrote:
Hi, Mell.

Tell me, is the below link your site/business/individual?

Access.QBuilt.com is one of five commercial and non-commercial
subdomains for Q-Built Solutions, a small business which employs
five consultants. I'm
one of these consultants.

People tell me that most indivual owners/developers - Ms Access
usually own
there own business as a second job b/c not reliable enough for
steady income
(keep in mind) individual not big boys............... Is this true?

That's been my experience, too. The market is so flooded with
people who aren't yet competent in Access -- but pass themselves
off as expert Access developers because they can use the built-in
wizards to create forms and reports to dazzle computer-challenged
business owners and managers -- that many of the ones who are
competent Access developers work in other technologies or
industries for their main income. Businesses just aren't willing
to pay money for what's widely percieved as "so easy that any monkey
can do it," and "tinker toy" applications that cause a wide range of
problems, when, in fact, it's the lack of competence of the Access
developers (hired 'em "real cheap!") and occasionally the network
administrators who have caused the vast majority of the problems
being blamed on Access.

The only money I've ever made from working with Access was several
years ago
when I was a corporate Access developer for a little more than a
year. I'm
an Oracle DBA consultant now for larger businesses, but I also do
computer networking/administration and occasional database-driven
Web sites powered by MySQL for small businesses (only because MySQL
is free with their Web hosting packages).

I've seen the tremendous need in small- and medium-sized businesses
for small, stable database applications that Access would be
perfect for, but almost none of these business owners are willing
to pay for that database application, even when they know the
computer automation will save thousands
of man-hours per year. Well, some are willing to pay a high school
student
(who has no interest in computers or databases) to spend thousands
of hours
to build Access applications that don't work very well -- because
these students work for minimum wage, which is a whole lot cheaper
(at least in these business owners' minds) than spending hundreds
of dollars for an expert to build it correctly in a matter of a few
hours. You want to help these people, but you can't convince them that
they need a
competent Access developer because they firmly believe that they've
got a bargain database application, and it works just fine --
except for the long
list of things that don't, including the safeguarding of data
integrity. But it's "good enough" for them.

But I've seen worse. Some business owners think that they can't
afford to hire IT people, so they spend thousands of hours
foregoing business opportunities worth many tens of thousands of
dollars (or possibly hundreds
of thousands of dollars per year) while they learn to build their
own computer network with disparate, outdated equipment -- picked
it up "real cheap!" -- and build a mission-critical Access database
application that they intend to run their entire business with, but
it just doesn't work. You want to help these people, too, but you can't
afford to pay for
the minimum equipment required (they aren't willing to pay to
replace their bargain equipment that doesn't work together), and
you can't afford to spend
two weeks or more fixing their multiple computer, network, virus,
and spam problems before even starting on a database application,
and the $100 for your time doesn't even begin to cover the gasoline
bill for the daily trips
to their office for an entire month. ("Hey, it took me more than
2,000 hours and I still can't get it to work, but this is easy for
you experts. You can finish my application in a few days, because
it's more than 95% done! If you don't want the job, I can hire a
high school dropout for half
that price!") And they require you to come to their office daily
to do the
software development on your own laptop, even after you've fixed
their computer and network problems (at no charge, because the
owner isn't willing
to pay you to fix the problems he doesn't believe he created that
prevent Microsoft Office from being installed on each of his
computers and a database from being networked). This is because
even though they can't spare one of their own computers and desks
for you to work on, they refuse to pay you for all the hours you'd
be wasting in front of the T.V. or on the
phone talking to your kids instead of working on their application
if the manager wasn't there watching you like a hawk. And you try
to explain to the owner that this working arrangement means that,
for tax purposes, you are a temporary employee of his and he's
required by law to pay half the Social Security taxes on the money
you earn from him, but he refuses because
you're a "professional consultant," not one of his employees.

So it's rather difficult to make a steady income if you're a
consultant looking for customers, and you only work with Access. But
perhaps others have had more favorable business experiences
working with Access in their geographical locations.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and
tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for
contact info.
Hey that was great information.........

[quoted text clipped - 94 lines]
>>>> mdb
>>>> created on Access 2003 (default 2000)...


--
Message posted via http://www.accessmonster.com

May 25 '06 #16

P: n/a
Hi, Rick.
Well, I've had somewhat more luck making a living at it
I'm glad you've had opportunities to earn an income from Access, because it
appears to be mighty difficult these days.
Over and over again I see people who are not qualified at all to design a
data-based application being given the assignment to do so, simply because
Access makes SOME parts of doing that so easy that an office worker can.
I think a lot of it has to do with unrealistic expectations. For example,
here's a recent request:

"This project will be for:

"- Visual Basic Project for the carpet cleaning industry.

"You can checkout Mistral 2000 (download the free demo) for what I'm trying
to accomplish. I would like this project to be better though. One feature
that I would like that Mistral doesn't have is: if connected to the
internet you can get a map of the address (perhaps a Google map or
Mapquest).

"Visit Cyclone Solutions to download the evaluation of Mistral 2000.
http://www.cyclonesolutions.com/

"I'd like to pay less than $150 for this project."

And you think, "A custom database application that can automatically
retrieve and display a map of an address, among other things, is going to
cost a lot more than $150." One would expect that for such a low price as
this customer wants to pay, it will be just a few, simple forms for data
entry. However, when viewed at the Web site, you find that Mistral 2000 is
about 15 forms (and a few of these are with graphs), 25 customizable
reports, and some custom toolbars. And you wonder, "Where did he get his
target price? Doesn't he know what custom software costs to design, create,
test and implement -- correctly?!!"

And then you look at the prices that Cyclone Solutions is asking for their
application. $149 a month for one license, $249 a month for two licenses,
$90 an hour for tech support, and more for a networked application with more
workstations. In perpetuity. Even though there's no daily or monthly
"updates" provided by some service that the application requires in order to
continue to be useful. Even though there's no promised upgrades. Even
though there's no add-ons to increase profits, increase the customer base,
or improve what-have-you. It's just payment for the user's license to run
the application -- until he doesn't pay for the continued use thereof.

And you think, "Where do they get these ideas that they can sell a rather
simple application -- that probably took them a week to get it right, for
such a large sum of money? In perpetuity?!!" And then you take a closer
look and notice the mistakes in the design and think, "Took 'em a lot longer
than a week because they were still learning how to build a database
application. I suppose they want to be well-compensated for all the hours
they sweated over it."

And then the lightbulb comes on, and you think, "I could build that same
application in a day or so in Access, and if I could sell it to X number of
customers, I'd sell it at a one-time price of $XXX, not as an outrageous
monthly license, and still make a tidy profit."

Even though it's a far more reasonable price than what Cyclone Solutions is
asking, it's higher than the price this customer is willing to pay. So the
customer hires some other developer who believes he can write the
application for the customer's price, only he's a beginner, so he doesn't
know how to build it correctly or how long it will take to figure it out.
After a long time passes, the customer is stuck with an application that
doesn't work like Mistral 2000 does, but at least the switchboard isn't as
ugly.

But even if you haggle and come to an agreement on your one-time price,
you'll find that the customer wants you to throw in any needed tech support,
full written "help & install" manual documentation (color printed on glossy
paper!) and the source code for that same low price. And even if you
finally agree to give an hour or two of free tech support (or whatever it
takes to install the application on his one computer), write the
documentation and give him the source code (but not an exclusionary license,
since you plan to sell the application to others), the price paid won't
begin to cover your time to get the application installed and running on all
of the multiple, "non-networked-computers-but-gotta-be" at each of the
umpteen carpet cleaning businesses that he's already sold the application to
for a tidy profit.

So you expected to sell umpteen copies of the application to recoup your
development, testing, and installation time and costs, but instead you ended
up having sold only a single copy of the application and spent all that time
writing documentation and giving free tech support to the umpteen carpet
cleaning businesses that your one customer cleaned up on. So you'll have to
go way out of the local area to find other carpet cleaning businesses who
might want to automate their business with your application, but you find
that any businesses willing to buy a custom application like yours only want
to buy it from someone who's local, just in case they need tech support.

See what I mean about unrealistic expectations? ;-)

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.
"Rick Wannall" <cw******@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:BE*******************@newssvr29.news.prodigy. net... Well, I've had somewhat more luck making a living at it, but I must say
that the description of the situation is perfect.

Over and over again I see people who are not qualified at all to design a
data-based application being given the assignment to do so, simply because
Access makes SOME parts of doing that so easy that an office worker can.
They hit the wall almost immediately, of course, then the blame now falls
on Access rather than the manager who did not understand the task and
therefore assigned it to someone completely unsuited to it.

This accounts in large measure for the widespread opinion that Access is a
"toy" or a lightweight tool. And once that wall is hit, the manager will
not be willing to reassess and realize that the limit is not Access and
that he or she is just going to have to shell out the money for a
competent designer.

Ahh, well...

"Mell via AccessMonster.com" <u18304@uwe> wrote in message
news:60b1155dc1814@uwe...
Yea, you are not alone with your experience in this or perseption. I hear
the
same from others as well.
I find that some businesses will pay (not alot), but just want a basic
tracking system with some bells. The bigger companies, I would think they
would not want to just use Access with native jet unless BE on SQL, etc?
I must say that the real experts are the ones that originally created
this
software. Ms Access has so many things that it can do that it's hard to
know
it from head to toe. Nevertheless, I feel if an application has been
created
for the customers needs and it is functional, it has served it's purpose
and
A BIG THANK YOU to those SMART SOFTWARE ENGINEERS. I just love this
program,
I use this board for questions alot, I am no expert, but I don't give up
either, if I don't know, it's certainly not hard to ask or look up.

'69 Camaro wrote:
Hi, Mell.

Tell me, is the below link your site/business/individual?

Access.QBuilt.com is one of five commercial and non-commercial subdomains
for Q-Built Solutions, a small business which employs five consultants.
I'm
one of these consultants.

People tell me that most indivual owners/developers - Ms Access usually
own
there own business as a second job b/c not reliable enough for steady
income
(keep in mind) individual not big boys............... Is this true?

That's been my experience, too. The market is so flooded with people who
aren't yet competent in Access -- but pass themselves off as expert
Access
developers because they can use the built-in wizards to create forms and
reports to dazzle computer-challenged business owners and managers --
that
many of the ones who are competent Access developers work in other
technologies or industries for their main income. Businesses just aren't
willing to pay money for what's widely percieved as "so easy that any
monkey
can do it," and "tinker toy" applications that cause a wide range of
problems, when, in fact, it's the lack of competence of the Access
developers (hired 'em "real cheap!") and occasionally the network
administrators who have caused the vast majority of the problems being
blamed on Access.

The only money I've ever made from working with Access was several years
ago
when I was a corporate Access developer for a little more than a year.
I'm
an Oracle DBA consultant now for larger businesses, but I also do
computer
networking/administration and occasional database-driven Web sites
powered
by MySQL for small businesses (only because MySQL is free with their Web
hosting packages).

I've seen the tremendous need in small- and medium-sized businesses for
small, stable database applications that Access would be perfect for, but
almost none of these business owners are willing to pay for that database
application, even when they know the computer automation will save
thousands
of man-hours per year. Well, some are willing to pay a high school
student
(who has no interest in computers or databases) to spend thousands of
hours
to build Access applications that don't work very well -- because these
students work for minimum wage, which is a whole lot cheaper (at least in
these business owners' minds) than spending hundreds of dollars for an
expert to build it correctly in a matter of a few hours.

You want to help these people, but you can't convince them that they need
a
competent Access developer because they firmly believe that they've got a
bargain database application, and it works just fine -- except for the
long
list of things that don't, including the safeguarding of data integrity.
But it's "good enough" for them.

But I've seen worse. Some business owners think that they can't afford
to
hire IT people, so they spend thousands of hours foregoing business
opportunities worth many tens of thousands of dollars (or possibly
hundreds
of thousands of dollars per year) while they learn to build their own
computer network with disparate, outdated equipment -- picked it up "real
cheap!" -- and build a mission-critical Access database application that
they intend to run their entire business with, but it just doesn't work.

You want to help these people, too, but you can't afford to pay for the
minimum equipment required (they aren't willing to pay to replace their
bargain equipment that doesn't work together), and you can't afford to
spend
two weeks or more fixing their multiple computer, network, virus, and
spam
problems before even starting on a database application, and the $100 for
your time doesn't even begin to cover the gasoline bill for the daily
trips
to their office for an entire month. ("Hey, it took me more than 2,000
hours and I still can't get it to work, but this is easy for you experts.
You can finish my application in a few days, because it's more than 95%
done! If you don't want the job, I can hire a high school dropout for
half
that price!") And they require you to come to their office daily to do
the
software development on your own laptop, even after you've fixed their
computer and network problems (at no charge, because the owner isn't
willing
to pay you to fix the problems he doesn't believe he created that prevent
Microsoft Office from being installed on each of his computers and a
database from being networked). This is because even though they can't
spare one of their own computers and desks for you to work on, they
refuse
to pay you for all the hours you'd be wasting in front of the T.V. or on
the
phone talking to your kids instead of working on their application if the
manager wasn't there watching you like a hawk. And you try to explain to
the owner that this working arrangement means that, for tax purposes, you
are a temporary employee of his and he's required by law to pay half the
Social Security taxes on the money you earn from him, but he refuses
because
you're a "professional consultant," not one of his employees.

So it's rather difficult to make a steady income if you're a consultant
looking for customers, and you only work with Access. But perhaps others
have had more favorable business experiences working with Access in their
geographical locations.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.

Hey that was great information.........

[quoted text clipped - 94 lines]
>>>> mdb
>>>> created on Access 2003 (default 2000)...


--
Message posted via http://www.accessmonster.com


May 26 '06 #17

P: n/a
Hi.
Here I diverge with you. I ALWAYS - no matter what - split the database
off from the app and presentation layer.
Unfortunately, you seem to be in the minority. I worked for a very large
corporation after it had had multiple mergers of three very large
corporations that had locations mostly in the U.S., but around the world,
too, and when we did an assessment of what IT assets we had, what IT assets
could be merged, and what could be replaced with what was considered "best
practices," I got the opportunity to view tens and tens of thousands of
Access databases that had been built in Access 2.0 through 2002 over the
years by thousands of employees and contractors of the three corporations.
For the most part, these were unsplit database applications with no table
links, and no VBA code using either DSN's or DSN-less connections.

As for small- and medium-sized businesses, in all the years I've worked in
IT, I've only once been E-mailed an Access database "to look at" that was
zipped without my giving prior instructions on how to do so -- and some of
these files were more than 100 MB. Not one database was ever split or even
compacted, unless I gave the owner step-by-step instructions on how to
compact it first. Non-IT and non-Access people just don't know the proper
care and feeding of Access databases.
Well, it doesn't necessarily crash (too often for my taste), and when it
does IT usually doesn't get called in (if the original developer is
available).
My experience has been that the original developer hasn't worked for the
company in at least two or three years, and he was not an IT developer, so
knew nothing about database design, software design, or documentation. But
he built something that saved the department hours and hours of labor, so
they kept the application if not the employee. The department eventually
needs to upgrade the application to incorporate more functionality or,
sadly, needs IT to fix a corrupted database file that the department just
can't do without. This latter situation is the more common scenario, which
is one of the reasons IT has such a poor opinion of Access. They only hear
about the Access databases when disaster strikes, so they assume that this
is the state Access is always in.
True. Or meetings were held upfront, and IT declined to cooperate from
the beginning, and won't help now.
Or IT said, "We'll do it next year for $20,000 of your department's budget."
Way too late and way too much, so IT didn't get the job to build the
application.
From what I've seen, big companies rarely have competent developers of ANY
kind on staff. DBAs and business analysts and project managers, yes. But
a talented Java or VB or Access developer is usually going to be a
freelancer.
My experience has been just the opposite. I've always worked on hand-picked
teams, many of whom were corporate employees that were incredibly talented
IT experts and software developers. They all seem to have started out as
contractors or interns though, except for me, because the corporate IT
policy for all three of the corporations before and after the mergers was
that they would never hire someone unless he'd first worked for them as a
contractor or intern, had proven his abilities, and had been evaluated
favorably before bringing him into the corporate culture. To them, their
corporate culture is what sets them apart from other successful
corporations, so they won't hire someone with just talent, because he also
has to fit in well with the rest of the team and their "image." I was one
of the rare exceptions they hired directly as a full-time IT employee
because, at the time of my hiring, I had a number of other job offers in the
works, including a dream job, so offering me a "maybe" 90-day position as a
contractor with no benefits -- and who could be fired for no reason and
without notice -- wasn't going to interest me. (When I interviewed for this
corporate job and was asked if I'd accept a contractor position, I explained
exactly why I wouldn't accept it. I expected the manager interviewing me to
say, "That B.S. degree listed on your resume doesn't really stand for
Bachelor of Science, does it?" ;-) I'm sure she checked up on me and found
I wasn't making anything up.)
Some of the Access/SQL Server/Oracle apps I've created have been taken
"internal" and are now maintained by IT, but they're rarely improved, and
I've never seen one rewritten. (not that it doesn't happen, just not to
me)
Then you are the dream contractor that every department manager who hires IT
contractors hopes to find, but usually can't because he's too busy focusing
on the cheapest rates for software developers, only to find that "cheaper"
doesn't mean that it costs less, and doesn't mean it will be of the same
quality, and doesn't mean it will keep the same schedule for development,
testing, and implementation.
Access is incredibly customizable, and I have to admit that I use it
a lot to automate tasks that have nothing to do with data storage on
Windows computers.


Yes. What kinds of things did you build?


Mostly utilities to speed up my work and the work of our customers. I built
a utilty that scans all the Access files across the network, determines
which version each was created in and whether security has been implemented,
determines whether it's a candidate for conversion to Microsoft Access 2003,
and if so, to automatically convert it (even when security is implemented,
as the database owner's User ID, password, and database password can be
determined programmatically) and recompile the code with the Access 2003
libraries, and, if it's not a candidate for conversion, to create a report
listing the similar databases so that a human can determine which one is the
database file currently in use that needs to be converted to Access 2003.

I've also built a few Web crawlers, record updaters for online databases,
automated FTP utilities, a few data normalization utilities, an automated
Access application builder (the table schemas and relationships must already
be designed, but it builds data input/edit forms and subforms, common
buttons and other functionalities, and cleans up many of the default
settings to be more user-friendly), a few automated database security
utilities, an automated MDE to MDB file converter, data migration utilities
that automatically convert Oracle schemas and data storage from earlier
versions of Oracle to Oracle 9i on a Unix cluster with failover, data
warehouse ETL utilities, and probably a few more that I've long since
forgotten about.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.
"DFS" <nospam@dfs_.com> wrote in message
news:RO*************@bignews2.bellsouth.net... '69 Camaro wrote:
Hi, Mell.
The bigger companies, I would think they
would not want to just use Access with native jet unless BE on SQL,
etc?


One would think so, but that's generally not the case. The bigger
companies have IT departments that build the in-house software
applications, but their schedules are so backlogged that many
departments will use their own non-IT employees to build a database
application or use their department budget to hire a contractor to
build the application. Sometimes these applications use the
company's "official" database engine for the back end, but more often
than not, it's Jet.


Yep. That's EXACTLY the situation I've encountered, and have worked under
for many years. It's pretty much ideal, I think, 'cause the ball is in
your court. You often end up being the business analyst, data architect,
DBA, data analyst, interface designer, and report writer. What that can
mean is you end up being almost indispensable.

And it's not a split database, either.


Here I diverge with you. I ALWAYS - no matter what - split the database
off from the app and presentation layer.
Everyone in the department is using the application, then other
departments discover its usefulness, and they start sharing it, too,
since the Access file is in a shared directory on the network. The
application becomes mission-critical, it crashes, gets corrupted, and
IT is called in.


Well, it doesn't necessarily crash (too often for my taste), and when it
does IT usually doesn't get called in (if the original developer is
available).

IT starts screaming bloody murder, because they
were never consulted about building the mission-critical application,
so it wasn't built with any standard practices of software
development in mind.


True. Or meetings were held upfront, and IT declined to cooperate from
the beginning, and won't help now.

IT has to drop everything to fix the
mission-critical application, which usually means redesigning and
building it from scratch -- in IT's software development environment
of choice, which is rarely Access because they don't have any
competent Access developers.


From what I've seen, big companies rarely have competent developers of ANY
kind on staff. DBAs and business analysts and project managers, yes. But
a talented Java or VB or Access developer is usually going to be a
freelancer.

Some of the Access/SQL Server/Oracle apps I've created have been taken
"internal" and are now maintained by IT, but they're rarely improved, and
I've never seen one rewritten. (not that it doesn't happen, just not to
me)

A BIG THANK YOU to those SMART SOFTWARE ENGINEERS. I just love this
program


Access is incredibly customizable, and I have to admit that I use it
a lot to automate tasks that have nothing to do with data storage on
Windows computers.


Yes. What kinds of things did you build?

I built an Access front-end solely to automate an email process. The
users were sitting there and manually cutting and pasting email addresses
from a spreadsheet, manually adding an attachment, and manually sending
it. Hundreds of times a week! In a few hours I had a small system for
them, and they were clicking to import the entire email list, clicking to
choose the folder where the attachments were stored, and clicking to
auto-attach and auto-send the emails - with fewer errors and less effort.
That was a big ROI for the client - I should have charged by the
transaction:)

I also wrote a rudimentary web spider in Access, a simple ftp automation
program, and an ebay search tool.

Modules | New | Tools | Reference, and the world is yours.
And the ability to do "quickie" prototypes to
show a proof of concept is invaluable.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and
tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for
contact info.

"Mell via AccessMonster.com" <u18304@uwe> wrote in message
news:60b1155dc1814@uwe...
Yea, you are not alone with your experience in this or perseption. I
hear the
same from others as well.
I find that some businesses will pay (not alot), but just want a
basic tracking system with some bells. The bigger companies, I would
think they would not want to just use Access with native jet unless
BE on SQL, etc? I must say that the real experts are the ones that
originally created this software. Ms Access has so many things that
it can do that it's hard to know
it from head to toe. Nevertheless, I feel if an application has been
created
for the customers needs and it is functional, it has served it's
purpose and
A BIG THANK YOU to those SMART SOFTWARE ENGINEERS. I just love this
program,
I use this board for questions alot, I am no expert, but I don't
give up either, if I don't know, it's certainly not hard to ask or
look up. '69 Camaro wrote:
Hi, Mell.

> Tell me, is the below link your site/business/individual?

Access.QBuilt.com is one of five commercial and non-commercial
subdomains for Q-Built Solutions, a small business which employs
five consultants. I'm
one of these consultants.

> People tell me that most indivual owners/developers - Ms Access
> usually own
> there own business as a second job b/c not reliable enough for
> steady income
> (keep in mind) individual not big boys............... Is this true?

That's been my experience, too. The market is so flooded with
people who aren't yet competent in Access -- but pass themselves
off as expert Access developers because they can use the built-in
wizards to create forms and reports to dazzle computer-challenged
business owners and managers -- that many of the ones who are
competent Access developers work in other technologies or
industries for their main income. Businesses just aren't willing
to pay money for what's widely percieved as "so easy that any monkey
can do it," and "tinker toy" applications that cause a wide range of
problems, when, in fact, it's the lack of competence of the Access
developers (hired 'em "real cheap!") and occasionally the network
administrators who have caused the vast majority of the problems
being blamed on Access.

The only money I've ever made from working with Access was several
years ago
when I was a corporate Access developer for a little more than a
year. I'm
an Oracle DBA consultant now for larger businesses, but I also do
computer networking/administration and occasional database-driven
Web sites powered by MySQL for small businesses (only because MySQL
is free with their Web hosting packages).

I've seen the tremendous need in small- and medium-sized businesses
for small, stable database applications that Access would be
perfect for, but almost none of these business owners are willing
to pay for that database application, even when they know the
computer automation will save thousands
of man-hours per year. Well, some are willing to pay a high school
student
(who has no interest in computers or databases) to spend thousands
of hours
to build Access applications that don't work very well -- because
these students work for minimum wage, which is a whole lot cheaper
(at least in these business owners' minds) than spending hundreds
of dollars for an expert to build it correctly in a matter of a few
hours. You want to help these people, but you can't convince them that
they need a
competent Access developer because they firmly believe that they've
got a bargain database application, and it works just fine --
except for the long
list of things that don't, including the safeguarding of data
integrity. But it's "good enough" for them.

But I've seen worse. Some business owners think that they can't
afford to hire IT people, so they spend thousands of hours
foregoing business opportunities worth many tens of thousands of
dollars (or possibly hundreds
of thousands of dollars per year) while they learn to build their
own computer network with disparate, outdated equipment -- picked
it up "real cheap!" -- and build a mission-critical Access database
application that they intend to run their entire business with, but
it just doesn't work. You want to help these people, too, but you can't
afford to pay for
the minimum equipment required (they aren't willing to pay to
replace their bargain equipment that doesn't work together), and
you can't afford to spend
two weeks or more fixing their multiple computer, network, virus,
and spam problems before even starting on a database application,
and the $100 for your time doesn't even begin to cover the gasoline
bill for the daily trips
to their office for an entire month. ("Hey, it took me more than
2,000 hours and I still can't get it to work, but this is easy for
you experts. You can finish my application in a few days, because
it's more than 95% done! If you don't want the job, I can hire a
high school dropout for half
that price!") And they require you to come to their office daily
to do the
software development on your own laptop, even after you've fixed
their computer and network problems (at no charge, because the
owner isn't willing
to pay you to fix the problems he doesn't believe he created that
prevent Microsoft Office from being installed on each of his
computers and a database from being networked). This is because
even though they can't spare one of their own computers and desks
for you to work on, they refuse to pay you for all the hours you'd
be wasting in front of the T.V. or on the
phone talking to your kids instead of working on their application
if the manager wasn't there watching you like a hawk. And you try
to explain to the owner that this working arrangement means that,
for tax purposes, you are a temporary employee of his and he's
required by law to pay half the Social Security taxes on the money
you earn from him, but he refuses because
you're a "professional consultant," not one of his employees.

So it's rather difficult to make a steady income if you're a
consultant looking for customers, and you only work with Access. But
perhaps others have had more favorable business experiences
working with Access in their geographical locations.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and
tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for
contact info.
> Hey that was great information.........
>
[quoted text clipped - 94 lines]
>>>>> mdb
>>>>> created on Access 2003 (default 2000)...

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Message posted via http://www.accessmonster.com


May 26 '06 #18

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