Hi,
We run an MS Access 2000 DB with about 15 users.
It is on a Win 2000 Server (SP4) machine and runs through Citrix
Metaframe Presentation Server 3.0.
--------------------------
The backend files size is usually about 30 meg or so and recelty it
has been bloating on random occasions to about 700-800 megs.
The DB developer is stumped as is the Server Tech.
I provide Client-side tech and light server support for them.
-------------------------
This is solved with a repair and compact when it occurs, but it is
happening about once per week now instead of once every 3 months or
so.
Does anyone have any ideas regarding the causes of this type of thing?
Thanks,
Jameso321
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First, in access 2000, a good number of serious bloating problems where
fixed, and thus you have to install the service packs for office 2000, and
also for JET.
Assuming that you installed the many bug fixes for office and jet via the
service packs, then the next thing to check is if any new code, or a change
in some type of import, or report is being run that uses temp data.
So, usually, bloat is result of some code, or routines that creates temp
data, or uses a temp table for processing. We all know that any temp table
used in code will cause the bloat.
You can do some further reading here: http://www.granite.ab.ca/access/bloatfe.htm
the above talks about the front end, but much also applies to the back
end...
--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada pl************* ****@msn.com http://www.members.shaw.ca/AlbertKallal
jameso321 <Us************ @dbForumz.com> wrote in
news:4_******** *************** *************** *@dbforumz.com: We run an MS Access 2000 DB with about 15 users.
It is on a Win 2000 Server (SP4) machine and runs through Citrix Metaframe Presentation Server 3.0.
--------------------------
The backend files size is usually about 30 meg or so and recelty it has been bloating on random occasions to about 700-800 megs.
The DB developer is stumped as is the Server Tech.
I provide Client-side tech and light server support for them.
-------------------------
This is solved with a repair and compact when it occurs, but it is happening about once per week now instead of once every 3 months or so.
Does anyone have any ideas regarding the causes of this type of thing?
As Albert suggested, make sure all users are updated to a decent
version of Access (this means applying Office SR1 or later; the
reason one might choose to not implement SP3 is that it includes the
Draconian Outlook "security" patch that disables nearly all useful
attachments), and each workstation must be patched to at least Jet 4
SP6 (the current version is 8; 7 was buggy and is not available; 6
is sufficient, though 8 patches some code execution
vulnerabilities ).
But the most likely reason for bloat is bad application design.
If the application is adding and deleting records from the back end,
this will cause lots of bloat. This is a common mistake by rookie
programmers, using a temp table in the back end, adding records to a
workset, then deleting them.
Any temp tables should probably be in a separate temp.mdb on the
individual workstation, rather than on the server.
--
David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton
dfenton at bway dot net http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
"Albert D.Kallal" wrote: First, in access 2000, a good number of serious bloating problems where fixed, and thus you have to install the service packs for office
2000,and also for JET.
Assuming that you installed the many bug fixes for office and jet via the service packs, then the next thing to check is if any new code, or a change in some type of import, or report is being run that uses temp data.
So, usually, bloat is result of some code, or routines that creates temp data, or uses a temp table for processing. We all know that any temp table used in code will cause the bloat.
You can do some further reading here: http://www.granite.ab.ca/access/bloatfe.htm
the above talks about the front end, but much also applies to the
back end...
Thanks for responding. Windows 2k Server and Office 2k on that server
are current with respect to service packs and normal updates.
I have passed this information to the DB developer, but he insists
that the problem is external to the DB.
Do you have anything to say regarding causes that are not DB related?
Keep in mind this is all run on Citrix Metaframe Presentation Server
3.0 and the whole shabang runs on the server itselfl; the front ends
and back end. Each user has their own front end.
Thanks
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"David W. Fenton" wrote: jameso321 <Us************ @dbForumz.com> wrote in news:4_******** *************** *************** *@dbforumz.com:
We run an MS Access 2000 DB with about 15 users.
It is on a Win 2000 Server (SP4) machine and runs through Citrix Metaframe Presentation Server 3.0.
--------------------------
The backend files size is usually about 30 meg or so and recelty it has been bloating on random occasions to about 700-800 megs. The DB developer is stumped as is the Server Tech.
I provide Client-side tech and light server support for
them. -------------------------
This is solved with a repair and compact when it occurs, but
it is happening about once per week now instead of once every 3 months or so.
Does anyone have any ideas regarding the causes of this type of thing?
As Albert suggested, make sure all users are updated to a decent version of Access (this means applying Office SR1 or later; the reason one might choose to not implement SP3 is that it includes the Draconian Outlook "security" patch that disables nearly all useful attachments), and each workstation must be patched to at least Jet 4 SP6 (the current version is 8; 7 was buggy and is not available; 6 is sufficient, though 8 patches some code execution vulnerabilities ).
But the most likely reason for bloat is bad application design.
If the application is adding and deleting records from the back end, this will cause lots of bloat. This is a common mistake by rookie programmers, using a temp table in the back end, adding records to a workset, then deleting them.
Any temp tables should probably be in a separate temp.mdb on the individual workstation, rather than on the server.
-- David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton dfenton at bway dot net http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
Thanks for replying.
Let’s talk about the magnitude of bloating. I keep an eye on the mdb
file pretty much all day now.
It will go from 30 megs to 600 megs in an instant, then up to 975
megs.
This is not gradual.
Thanks,
--
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"David W. Fenton" wrote: jameso321 <Us************ @dbForumz.com> wrote in news:4_******* *************** *************** **@dbforumz.com :
We run an MS Access 2000 DB with about 15 users.
It is on a Win 2000 Server (SP4) machine and runs through Citrix Metaframe Presentation Server 3.0.
--------------------------
The backend files size is usually about 30 meg or so and recelty it has been bloating on random occasions to about 700-800 megs.
The DB developer is stumped as is the Server Tech.
I provide Client-side tech and light server support for them.
-------------------------
This is solved with a repair and compact when it occurs, but it is happening about once per week now instead of once every 3 months or so.
Does anyone have any ideas regarding the causes of this type of thing?
As Albert suggested, make sure all users are updated to a decent version of Access (this means applying Office SR1 or later; the reason one might choose to not implement SP3 is that it includes the Draconian Outlook "security" patch that disables nearly all useful attachments) , and each workstation must be patched to at least Jet 4 SP6 (the current version is 8; 7 was buggy and is not available; 6 is sufficient, though 8 patches some code execution vulnerabilitie s).
But the most likely reason for bloat is bad application design.
If the application is adding and deleting records from the back end, this will cause lots of bloat. This is a common mistake by rookie programmers, using a temp table in the back end, adding records to a workset, then deleting them.
Any temp tables should probably be in a separate temp.mdb on the individual workstation, rather than on the server.
--------------------------------------
Thanks for replying,
The good news is patching and such is easy for me as we use an
application server (Citrix Metaframe Presentation Server 3.0s)
I only have to deal with one copy of Office, and that copy is fully
patched.
I am passing your comments to the DB Programmer.
Thanks again,
--
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> Keep in mind this is all run on Citrix Metaframe Presentation Server 3.0 and the whole shabang runs on the server itselfl; the front ends and back end. Each user has their own front end.
Yes, clear on the above....
The interesting issue here is that 'all of a sudden' seems to be the strange
part. That seems strange if no updates or anything was done, and the
behavior started to change. I have to think somthing happend here.....
--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada pl************* ****@msn.com http://www.members.shaw.ca/AlbertKallal
jameso321 <Us************ @dbForumz.com> wrote in
news:4_******** *************** *************** *@dbforumz.com: Let’s talk about the magnitude of bloating. I keep an eye on the mdb file pretty much all day now.
It will go from 30 megs to 600 megs in an instant, then up to 975 megs.
This is not gradual.
Well, if a user initiates an operation that appends thousands of
records to a temp table and then those get deleted, and shortly
thereafter another user does the same thing, you could easily see
this kind of bloat. It depends on the size of the recordsets
involved.
Also, since it's a Terminal Server setup, I wonder if it's a proper
split architecture, with data tables in a shared MDB and the
forms/reports, etc. in a separate MDB for each user using the
application? Either way, split or unsplit, if multiple users are
opening the same MDB file, you're going to see massive bloat in the
MDB that has the forms/reports, etc.
If your developer did not split the database or is not giving each
user their own copy of the front end MDB (the one with the
forms/reports), then you're not really dealing with a professional
Access developer.
See http://www.granite.ab.ca/access/splitapp/index.htm for an
explanation of why. There's also a solution there for distributing
the front end to end users transparently, http://www.granite.ab.ca/access/autofe.htm . This is something I've
been using in various projects for several years now, and it works
just great.
--
David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton
dfenton at bway dot net http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
"Albert D.Kallal" <Pl************ *******@msn.com > wrote in
news:Ow******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP10.phx.gbl: Keep in mind this is all run on Citrix Metaframe Presentation Server 3.0 and the whole shabang runs on the server itselfl; the front ends and back end. Each user has their own front end.
Yes, clear on the above....
The interesting issue here is that 'all of a sudden' seems to be the strange part. That seems strange if no updates or anything was done, and the behavior started to change. I have to think somthing happend here.....
It sounds like some kind of patch or hotfix was applied to the
server.
I've told this story a gazillion times, but it teaches a good
lesson, so I'll tell it again:
Back in winter of 1999 a client of mine was was using a nice app of
mine that had a replicated back end to support their two offices and
two off-site users. Everything regarding replication had been
working smoothly for about 9 months when suddenly one day at 2:30pm
the back end in the NYC office reported itself corrupted. When we
compacted a copy, it came up having lost replicability.
We did troubleshooting on this for quite some time, recovering
manually the data that had been entered since the last successful
synchronization (it was on a schedule for several times a day, so it
wasn't a huge number of updates; and all the data tables had time
stamps in them, so I know what had been updated when).
Eventually, we determined that a hotfix that had been applied to
Exchange Server (to fix the problem with Exchange not shutting down
when the server was shut down, and causing the server to shut down
dirty) about 15 minutes before the first corruption. Since the
machine should never have had Exchange Server running on it in the
first place, we backed out the hotfix.
The problems vanished and never returned.
Now, this was a case where two interesting things happened:
1. a patch to an unrelated piece of software caused corruption of an
Access database, and
2. the consultants involved were too stupid to ask if Exchange
Server was in use. Had they done so, they could have saved everybody
a lot of grief by simply shutting down Exchange Server instead of
applying a hotfix for a program that wasn't even in use.
So, I'd try to determine exactly when the problem first started
occurring, then go back to the event logs to see if there's anything
there. Hopefully they are configured to not overwrite too quickly
and you could find out what happened from them.
--
David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton
dfenton at bway dot net http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
"David W. Fenton" wrote: "Albert D.Kallal" <Pl************ *******@msn.com > wrote in news:Ow******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP10.phx.gbl:
>> Keep in mind this is all run on Citrix Metaframe Presentation >> Server 3.0 and the whole shabang runs on the server itselfl; the >> front ends and back end. Each user has their own front end. Yes, clear on the above....
The interesting issue here is that 'all of a sudden' seems
to be the strange part. That seems strange if no updates or anything was done, and the behavior started to change. I have to think somthing happend here.....
It sounds like some kind of patch or hotfix was applied to the server.
I've told this story a gazillion times, but it teaches a good lesson, so I'll tell it again:
Back in winter of 1999 a client of mine was was using a nice app of mine that had a replicated back end to support their two offices and two off-site users. Everything regarding replication had been working smoothly for about 9 months when suddenly one day at 2:30pm the back end in the NYC office reported itself corrupted. When we compacted a copy, it came up having lost replicability.
We did troubleshooting on this for quite some time, recovering manually the data that had been entered since the last successful synchronization (it was on a schedule for several times a day, so it wasn't a huge number of updates; and all the data tables had time stamps in them, so I know what had been updated when).
Eventually, we determined that a hotfix that had been applied to Exchange Server (to fix the problem with Exchange not shutting down when the server was shut down, and causing the server to shut down dirty) about 15 minutes before the first corruption. Since the machine should never have had Exchange Server running on it in the first place, we backed out the hotfix.
The problems vanished and never returned.
Now, this was a case where two interesting things happened:
1. a patch to an unrelated piece of software caused corruption of an Access database, and
2. the consultants involved were too stupid to ask if Exchange Server was in use. Had they done so, they could have saved everybody a lot of grief by simply shutting down Exchange Server instead of applying a hotfix for a program that wasn't even in use.
So, I'd try to determine exactly when the problem first started occurring, then go back to the event logs to see if there's anything there. Hopefully they are configured to not overwrite too quickly and you could find out what happened from them.
-- David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton dfenton at bway dot net http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
Each user has their own front.
The frequency of the problem in the last month or so is -
File Size - Date - Time
696,368 25 May 15:32
941,668 27 May 16:03
625,604 13 Jun 20:48
974,596 21 Jun 12:48
-----------------
Normal file size is 27,984 or so.
I had seen this occur at least two times in the last 12 months besides
this past 30 days.
-------------------
I know what you are saying about updates and hotfixes, its too bad
that the timeline doesnt match up with any server work.
Thanks everyone for your input,
Jameso321
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