Killing VB softly with his song, Killing VB softly...with a song........... ..

[clintonG]

This is not about starting a fight but an observation that seems to be
proving itself on its own merit and is therefore simply a point of
conjecture.

I did not get serious about writing software until I learned ASP/VBS (if
that can be called writing software) as my focus was and remains for the
most part developing for the web. Even though I have had a programming class
in C which I somehow passed, JavaScript always gave me the heeby jeebies as
the syntax and grammar were foreign to me, different than ASP/VBS and those
curly braces and the semi-colon stuff seemed noisy and uneccessary.

When I decided to learn ASP.NET I began to do so using C# as I had an
epiphany. That is, both C# and JavaScript as well as Java all derive from
the legacy of C. So learning one language well meant I learned three for
the price of one. I came to understand I would never master web development
if I did not master JavaScript on the client. I also understood I would
never master web development if I did not master C# on the server. I kne
doing so meant I could read and understand Java. Perhaps some day to work on
a different platform. End of that discussion for me. Learn three for the
price of one became my mantra sung in the key og C# which by the way has
seven sharps or seven flats depending which direction you move on the scale.

That pursuit of efficiency was in fact my rationale for learning ASP/VBS as
I told myself I could simply learn one dialect and then reuse it to move up
the VB stack from VBS to VBA and eventually build solutions using VB itself.
The presence of ASP.NET changed that entire paradigm however. The epiphany
changed me and I began my pursuit to learn three for the price of one.

The point is, the future has a way of changing our grand plans. Microsoft
has done much recently to help VB developers migrate to .NET. Even if that
were argued one must ask where VB developers would or could go if they
decided to jump this ship? PHP? Hardy Har Har. Java? Get out the meds. C#.
Uh, not in this lifetime many have chimed. At least not until recent changes
of those grand plans which motivates me to write this note.

With the future of web development rapidly becoming ingrained with the
benefits of what we once called remote scripting which has been rebranded as
A(synchronous) JA(vascript) X(ml) it seems learning three for the price of
one is a song that has hit the charts with a bullet.

Most of what I have read when lured into the VB or C# discussions has been
comprised of two considerations for the most part;

1.) VB developers do not like the syntax and grammar of JavaScript (whoops,
I mean C#)
2.) The framework is the same for either.

So where do VB web developers go from here?

I contend again for the most part VB is a dialect that the nature of
progress considers an endangered species. Unless the web decides to go away
the predator (change) will continue to erode the value of VB which is in
effect already being killed off softly with a reminiscent analogy to the old
song by what's her name (Roberta Flack) which was later made to be FUBAR by
the Fugees.

Some VB developers have mastered JavaScript, this is understood and
admirable. Microsoft can only do so much to keep VB alive but it really
seems the present and most certainly the future depends on efficiency more
so than eve. VB developers as I see it will be increasingly compelled to
adopt the legacy of the C syntax and grammar. AJAX just about demands this
does it not? This is not to say the desktop is going away and Windows Forms
applications will continue to be developed of course but will employers or
any other context one must consider with regard to optimizing one's
knowledge and time not be of considerable importance?

In that regard I conted, the tune that must be sung is "learn three for the
price of one."
I can only wonder if in time, more VB developers will also choose to sing
this tune or will they wait until the market compels them to sing in a
different key whether they would like to or not? Time will tell. Either way,
we'll be waiting to see more of ya' all over at
news://microsoft.public.language.csharp :-)
<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee. com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[Scott M.]

Wow, so much to respond to and so little time...

FACT: VB has been around in one form or another for over 20 years. I doubt
it will be going extinct anytime soon.
FACT: There are millions and millions of VB developers...Se e fact #1

You seem to base your opinion on the premise that VB developers
don't/won't/can't learn or know C-like languages and that's just not true
for a large majority of them. I, myself do most of my development in VB
..NET (and VB 6.0 before that and VB 5.0 before that ..... and BASIC before
that), but I am also well-versed in JavaScript and C#. I just prefer VB
..NET for its lack of case-sensitivity and the fact that it is less
punctuation oriented - {}: [](). Some say that the use of this punctuation
clears the code of the verbose keywords that VB uses. That's there opinion
and they are entitled to it, but to say that VB is very clear about what is
happening because the keyword indicates the intention is just as valid of an
opinion.

Where does a VB developer go from here is your question? To the next
evolution of VB when it comes (and it will).


"clintonG" <cs*********@RE MOVETHISTEXTmet romilwaukee.com > wrote in message
news:en******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...

This is not about starting a fight but an observation that seems to be
proving itself on its own merit and is therefore simply a point of
conjecture.

I did not get serious about writing software until I learned ASP/VBS (if
that can be called writing software) as my focus was and remains for the
most part developing for the web. Even though I have had a programming
class in C which I somehow passed, JavaScript always gave me the heeby
jeebies as the syntax and grammar were foreign to me, different than
ASP/VBS and those curly braces and the semi-colon stuff seemed noisy and
uneccessary.

When I decided to learn ASP.NET I began to do so using C# as I had an
epiphany. That is, both C# and JavaScript as well as Java all derive from
the legacy of C. So learning one language well meant I learned three for
the price of one. I came to understand I would never master web
development if I did not master JavaScript on the client. I also
understood I would never master web development if I did not master C# on
the server. I kne doing so meant I could read and understand Java. Perhaps
some day to work on a different platform. End of that discussion for me.
Learn three for the price of one became my mantra sung in the key og C#
which by the way has seven sharps or seven flats depending which direction
you move on the scale.

That pursuit of efficiency was in fact my rationale for learning ASP/VBS
as I told myself I could simply learn one dialect and then reuse it to
move up the VB stack from VBS to VBA and eventually build solutions using
VB itself. The presence of ASP.NET changed that entire paradigm however.
The epiphany changed me and I began my pursuit to learn three for the
price of one.

The point is, the future has a way of changing our grand plans. Microsoft
has done much recently to help VB developers migrate to .NET. Even if that
were argued one must ask where VB developers would or could go if they
decided to jump this ship? PHP? Hardy Har Har. Java? Get out the meds. C#.
Uh, not in this lifetime many have chimed. At least not until recent
changes of those grand plans which motivates me to write this note.

With the future of web development rapidly becoming ingrained with the
benefits of what we once called remote scripting which has been rebranded
as A(synchronous) JA(vascript) X(ml) it seems learning three for the price
of one is a song that has hit the charts with a bullet.

Most of what I have read when lured into the VB or C# discussions has been
comprised of two considerations for the most part;

1.) VB developers do not like the syntax and grammar of JavaScript
(whoops, I mean C#)
2.) The framework is the same for either.

So where do VB web developers go from here?

I contend again for the most part VB is a dialect that the nature of
progress considers an endangered species. Unless the web decides to go
away the predator (change) will continue to erode the value of VB which is
in effect already being killed off softly with a reminiscent analogy to
the old song by what's her name (Roberta Flack) which was later made to be
FUBAR by the Fugees.

Some VB developers have mastered JavaScript, this is understood and
admirable. Microsoft can only do so much to keep VB alive but it really
seems the present and most certainly the future depends on efficiency more
so than eve. VB developers as I see it will be increasingly compelled to
adopt the legacy of the C syntax and grammar. AJAX just about demands this
does it not? This is not to say the desktop is going away and Windows
Forms applications will continue to be developed of course but will
employers or any other context one must consider with regard to optimizing
one's knowledge and time not be of considerable importance?

In that regard I conted, the tune that must be sung is "learn three for
the price of one."
I can only wonder if in time, more VB developers will also choose to sing
this tune or will they wait until the market compels them to sing in a
different key whether they would like to or not? Time will tell. Either
way, we'll be waiting to see more of ya' all over at
news://microsoft.public.language.csharp :-)
<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee. com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Hi,

I thought a lot of text not untrue who is writing this. And at the end I saw
it Clinton. I answer you with a metaphor.

Clinton, have one time a longer Holliday and go to Western Europe. I don't
know what you like, however when you tell that, than I can give you maybe a
nice advice.

Let say you start for this explanation at Paris, you go to the nice musea,
look to the expensive shops, go to the markets and have a visit at the Night
live. In Paris people is almost only speaking French.

Then you go to London as well a nice city and you try to taste the life of
London, it has something that I think you cannot describe, people are only
speaking English there.

Than you go to Rome (not the best route however for this text). Very nice
historic buildings and fine food and pleasant way of behaviour from people,
completely different from the other cities again, people are speaking
Italian and those have the habit trying to understand you when you try to
speak English because they are almost forever very friendly.

The last city (normally better to start with as American however it is for
this message) is Amsterdam. It has a nice historic city, very good musea and
good and exiting nightlife. The food you can not compare with Rome and Paris
or the Asian food from London (my own opinion). However *you* will not be
able to speak another language than English in Amsterdam, while the
inhabitants are speaking Dutch to each other.

Most Europeans understand each other because the languages in those
countries differ for you a lot, however not as much that people cannot
communicate with each other because the differences are not that much.
(People from some countries can this easier than from other countries)

This metaphor to show you that a lot of languages would not be a problem, as
long as they are not completely different where by instance"close" means in
the other language "open" because than you have big trouble.

To give such an examnple of this. Plat Duits means in Dutch "Bad German",
while in the German language it means "Flatland German", almost every
Dutchman is very angry when a German says, your language sounds the same as
"Plat" German.

Not one of the countries will give up its own language although some English
speaking people have sometimes that idea.

I hope that it answers a little bit your question.

Cor

[clintonG]

<snip />

You missed the point Cor but the use of analogy is often useful so I will
respond to that analogy.

If the rest of the world decided to use English all the time especially for
very important business processes the people who speak Dutch or German would
be compelled to learn English. Has this not happened? Yes, it has.

In time -- perhaps a very long time but it will happen anyway -- Dutch or
German would only be spoken in the home to talk to grandma and the kids.
Eventually, grandma passes away and the kids grow up and want to go out into
the real world which requires them to speak English to go to school, to do
business, whatever. Those that do not learn to read, write and speak English
well will always be at a disadvantage. In time, they will not even be able
to get any work at all. Maybe it will take a long time but this is how it
will happen because this is how it has already happened.

And this is what has just happened in web development because the use of
AJAX had made it clear that everybody must now learn to master JavaScript
more so than ever before or their websites will not be as useful or function
as well as others.

So my point is the big question, "Even though you know how to speak Dutch
and German and English very well what about the rest of the world? Why keep
talking in Dutch and German when learning one language such as English
allows you to talk to many many more people? That is what is going on in the
world today. Needing to master JavaScript in web development is like needing
to master English. Some are going to make it and some are not. Time will
tell how important it is but I believe it is going to give many VB
developers a difficult time.

<%= Clinton Gallagher

[clintonG]

<snip />

Time will tell of course but I do think that as time moves forward the need
to master JavaScript will become increasingly evident and more pressing to a
greater number of people doing web development. Perhaps we'll see push
button monkey code solutions evolve. Who knows? All I know is it made a lot
of sense to me to adopt my learn three for the price of one philosophy which
in itself is enough work as it is and I think client-side development is
going to erode the use of VB in this context and only in this context
because so many others -- yourself clearly excepted -- have expressed a
disdain for the syntax and grammar which derives from C. Its not like other
languages will go away but they most certainly become relagated to niche
status as we've seen. It also not like there will not be a need to learn new
languages as I now must also consider learning Ruby for some specific
applications I may be developing in the future.

So again, time will tell noting I appreciate the lack of nitpicking that
could have developed around a simple premise that being the increased usage
of JavaScript in due time will kill off the popularity of the VB syntax and
grammar. Perhaps more so in ASP/VBS than .NET. Again, time will tell and
we'll have to see where this AJAX trend leads but for me there seems to be
no question that the rich user interface is the goal that has brought
JavaScript roaring back to life and XML isn't going anywhere soon so I'm
glad I decided to learn C# as it has made it much easier to read,
understand, and use JavaScript for having done so.

<%= Clinton Gallagher

[m.posseth]

Ahum if i may step in the analogy ....
verry short

then VB is mandarine Chinese ( or Spanish if you like ) You speak
English ( C# ) however despite as what you might think there are a lot more
people speaking Spanish or Chinese in the world as there are English
speaking people in the world

P.S.

I program Basic since 13 years of age ( now 31 ) i just love the language ,
and i program a lot faster in VB.Net as in C# although i master C style
syntax
i just prefer VB ( and VB is here to stay ) , also VB is a true RAD tool
and C# can`t beat that .

Michel Posseth
"clintonG" <cs*********@RE MOVETHISTEXTmet romilwaukee.com > schreef in bericht
news:uu******** ******@tk2msftn gp13.phx.gbl...

<snip />

You missed the point Cor but the use of analogy is often useful so I will
respond to that analogy.

If the rest of the world decided to use English all the time especially
for very important business processes the people who speak Dutch or German
would be compelled to learn English. Has this not happened? Yes, it has.

In time -- perhaps a very long time but it will happen anyway -- Dutch or
German would only be spoken in the home to talk to grandma and the kids.
Eventually, grandma passes away and the kids grow up and want to go out
into the real world which requires them to speak English to go to school,
to do business, whatever. Those that do not learn to read, write and speak
English well will always be at a disadvantage. In time, they will not even
be able to get any work at all. Maybe it will take a long time but this is
how it will happen because this is how it has already happened.

And this is what has just happened in web development because the use of
AJAX had made it clear that everybody must now learn to master JavaScript
more so than ever before or their websites will not be as useful or
function as well as others.

So my point is the big question, "Even though you know how to speak Dutch
and German and English very well what about the rest of the world? Why
keep talking in Dutch and German when learning one language such as
English allows you to talk to many many more people? That is what is going
on in the world today. Needing to master JavaScript in web development is
like needing to master English. Some are going to make it and some are
not. Time will tell how important it is but I believe it is going to give
many VB developers a difficult time.

<%= Clinton Gallagher

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Clinton,

Going on in your message (at the middle I go over more to the exact
subject). That people is in this century is speaking often English as
communication language is something that started in the previous century.

It has always be French and there is forever thought that it would stay
French.. Why would the world learn English which is only spoken by 8% of the
world population.

While new financial powers can be in the future China and/or India, which
uses languages that are spoken by much more people in the world.

You over estimate the role of the English language in the world as a lot of
English people do. The same is often done by only French or Russian speaking
people.

Don't forget that English is really a bad language when it is compared with
much other languages. (Not Dutch that is even worse).

And than coming back to your subject. This is in my opinion the same with
program languages. Don't see it only from your focus, it will probably
change. I got a nice message from somebody in the newsgroup General who
showed me this.

http://www.levenez.com/lang/history.html#01

This looks to me as something from the begin of the evolution, one of the
interesting things in it is that VB (Basic) together with Cobol has the
longest straight line.

You talk about AJAX (An in Europe famous Amsterdam football club (for you
soccer)).

Ken has set this sample on our website, I thought that it has as much
JScript as VBNet code in it.

http://www.vb-tips.com/default.aspx?...d-73214b27750c

I don't believe that the current languages will be used in future, as well
do I not believe that there will be one language in the world, as that in
the Bible is written there was before the time of the of the tower of
Babylon..

Just my thought,

Cor

[ProfitMaxTrading.com]

Found this an interesting subject considering my current affair with
deciding on language skills to adopt (first).

In the very beginning (back in the early 70's), I started my programming
adventure learning machine language and proudly (later) Assembly Language
(yes, there is a difference!). It gave a good sense of what goes on inside
the computer and is very efficient. Oh but all those mnemonics to learn.
Forget to shift a bit here, a bit there, and you're toast!

By the end of the 70's I had accomplished programming in Fortran, Cobol, and
some other language long removed from my memory (started with an 'A' and is
not Asm.) By 1980 I learned BASIC and thought "what an easy but inefficient
language this is. So I dumped it in favor of learning 'C' that really gave
me the feeling of POWER programming while being easier to deal with over
Assy.

But then came C++ and I had to learn that. Never got good enough (nor
mastered inheritance, etc) by the time a buddy of mine around 1994 suggested
I try Visual Basic (think it was version 4). "What, Basic??? Yuk! Dude, I'm
a 'C' guy." Well, he showed me the nice visual interface and how easy to
create forms, etc. So I gave in and started learning VB. Upgraded to 5.
Upgraded to 6. And there is where I am at now.

What about 'C', 'C++', 'Cobol and Fortran', 'Assembly'? Amazingly, I have
FORGOTTEN how to program using these prior languages.

Today I'm here because I want to learn VB.NET. I have installed VB.NET 2002
(got this with my MSDN membership a couple years ago) although I know it is
an old version. Guess I'm waiting for my VB.NET 2005 Beta 2 disk to arrive
in the mail form MS to upgrade. But while I look to learn VB.NET, I have to
wonder whether I am missing something in the world of 'C' or 'C++' and even
Assembly Language if you can believe that.

I've been told that programming in 'C' or 'C++' ( should anyone even bother
with 'C' with the likes of C++ around?) creates more efficient running
programs that are also smaller in size. They run faster as well. I've been
told that because hard drives have more capacity we VB programmers are a lax
bunch making fatter and fatter programs rather than tighter ones (greater
speed and smaller size?) achieved with 'C' or similar (?).

Although size is a minor inconvenience in today's larger drive capacity for
less $$ (except if your clients have to download your programs from the net
as mine do), speed is something I cannot afford to give away. So I wonder
whether my time would be better served by going back to 'C' or 'C++'
(whichever is better...I dunno) and learning it all over again or hanging in
there with VB (thus VB.NET from VB6).

ClintonG voiced an opinion that I often consider. Being one who loves this
field but doesn't want to waste time, I often wonder as I walk down the
programming section of Barne's and Noble whether any of those books on a
language I do not know would teach me something that I not only would find
useful, but would open additional doors to learn others FASTER. Learning one
language and then being able to quickly pick up one or two more is something
I certainly would entertain. Again, I certainly do not want to waste my time
as I'm not getting any younger (time running out!) and there is so much I
want and need to do.

I know that what you decide to use all depends on what you want to do. Guess
to say I want to do it all would be a bit over the top. Okay, priority is
that I need to write programs that my clients can download in a respectable
amount of time, and that it runs as fast as possible on their computers.
Some of my programs do a lot of cycles and you have to wait sometimes a
minute (or more) for the results to pop up. Faster, faster! Is VB.NET still
the path I should take? Anyone know? Or perhaps should I consider something
else?

Just prior to reading this thread I have been looking into re-learning
Assembly Language. "What???" you may be thinking. Before you say anything,
have you done it first? I'd like to hear from those who know this language
as well as VB.NET and have a view to share. Why re-learn Assembly? I'm
thinking perhaps writing small snipets to handle the more time intensive
aspects of my VB programs (if I decide to stick with VB of course) to speed
them up a bit. But then, maybe someone here might re-direct my view and say
"why not do this with 'C' or 'C++' (please say which is better) instead of
Assy." I really don't know. Since VB4, I've been disconnected from all these
other languages that I have to wonder if I'm missing the big picture.

Is all this verbose painting a clear picture of what I'm trying to ask? Or
is it just proving I'm going nuts and should be locked up? ;-)

Q. If you wanted to produce tight programs (smaller size) that runs fast,
and you wanted to get the project done in a short period of time, which
direction might you go? Will VB.NET fit this bill?

Q. Will the answer from the first question also allow for a leg up in
learning other languages, such as getting 3 for 1 as Clinton states? This is
a secondary desire. My priority is with the first question.

Thanks for reading. I look forward to the insights of all your collective
experiences in respects to this subject.

Rick


"clintonG" <cs*********@RE MOVETHISTEXTmet romilwaukee.com > wrote in message
news:et******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...

<snip />

Time will tell of course but I do think that as time moves forward the
need to master JavaScript will become increasingly evident and more
pressing to a greater number of people doing web development. Perhaps
we'll see push button monkey code solutions evolve. Who knows? All I know
is it made a lot of sense to me to adopt my learn three for the price of
one philosophy which in itself is enough work as it is and I think
client-side development is going to erode the use of VB in this context
and only in this context because so many others -- yourself clearly
excepted -- have expressed a disdain for the syntax and grammar which
derives from C. Its not like other languages will go away but they most
certainly become relagated to niche status as we've seen. It also not like
there will not be a need to learn new languages as I now must also
consider learning Ruby for some specific applications I may be developing
in the future.

So again, time will tell noting I appreciate the lack of nitpicking that
could have developed around a simple premise that being the increased
usage of JavaScript in due time will kill off the popularity of the VB
syntax and grammar. Perhaps more so in ASP/VBS than .NET. Again, time will
tell and we'll have to see where this AJAX trend leads but for me there
seems to be no question that the rich user interface is the goal that has
brought JavaScript roaring back to life and XML isn't going anywhere soon
so I'm glad I decided to learn C# as it has made it much easier to read,
understand, and use JavaScript for having done so.

<%= Clinton Gallagher

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Rick,

I have done assembler as well, that was fun, doing everything by yourself.
Those times are gone, we cannot make all those nice screens as they are now
by hazling with all those bytes..

However your main question. VBNet has one advantage over all those languages
you mention. It has the best IDE (what you call the visual interface) and
than it creates the smallest exe's, however that is only a very small
difference.

The speed between all Net languages (when used option strict on in VBNet) is
exactly the same.

I think that there is nothing more to say.

Cor

[ProfitMaxTrading.com]

Thanks Cor.
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************ @planet.nl> wrote in message
news:%2******** **********@TK2M SFTNGP09.phx.gb l...

Rick,

I have done assembler as well, that was fun, doing everything by yourself.
Those times are gone, we cannot make all those nice screens as they are
now by hazling with all those bytes..

However your main question. VBNet has one advantage over all those
languages you mention. It has the best IDE (what you call the visual
interface) and than it creates the smallest exe's, however that is only a
very small difference.

The speed between all Net languages (when used option strict on in VBNet)
is exactly the same.

I think that there is nothing more to say.

Cor