Frameworks for "Non-Content Oriented Web Apps"

[mirnazim]

Hi,

There are great Python Web Application Framework. But most of them are
meant for content oriented web apps.

Is there something that can ease the development of application that
are not content oriented(I call them "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB
APPLICATIONS" because I don't know what else to call them). I mean the
applications like, accounting, high volume data entry apps, where
normally GUI clients have ruled. I know very high quality ERP and
similar packages have been implemented in a web based environment. But
problem is that they have been developed with the tools that were
actually meant for content oriented apps like Zope, PHP, etc.

But is there some sort of framework or something that is actually meant
for such web apps,application that make heavy use of forms, have very
high amount of user interaction etc.

What I am asking here may sound off beat, but I think, in todays world
where web based solutions offers such a flexibility, we really need it.

I also know that I am to ambiguous, but as is the characteristic of
this wonderful community, talks that start as most abigous, transform
in crystal clear.

PS: I am a web developer, using PHP for living. I have been playing
with python for a while. I found python is really a cool language(do I
need to say that ;-)) with a really, really impressive collection of
modules and frameworks. While developing a school information system, I
felt the need of such a framework that makes developing of "Non-Content
Oriented Web-Apps" easy.

I know I posted a similar message earlier, but this time I a bit more
general.

[Tim Churches]

mi******@gmail.com wrote:

Hi,

There are great Python Web Application Framework. But most of them are
meant for content oriented web apps.

Is there something that can ease the development of application that
are not content oriented(I call them "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB
APPLICATIONS" because I don't know what else to call them). I mean the
applications like, accounting, high volume data entry apps, where
normally GUI clients have ruled. I know very high quality ERP and
similar packages have been implemented in a web based environment. But
problem is that they have been developed with the tools that were
actually meant for content oriented apps like Zope, PHP, etc.

Can you give some URL for publicly accessible examples of what you mean
by a "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB APPLICATIONS", so we can get a better
idea of what you mean?

Tim C

[Paul Rubin]

Tim Churches <tc***@optushome.com.au> writes:

Can you give some URL for publicly accessible examples of what you
mean by a "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB APPLICATIONS", so we can get a
better idea of what you mean?

I don't think there was anything unclear about it. A spreadsheet
might be a good example.

[Nick Coghlan]

mi******@gmail.com wrote:

But is there some sort of framework or something that is actually meant
for such web apps,application that make heavy use of forms, have very
high amount of user interaction etc.

Hmm, PJE's PEAK might be worth having a look at: http://peak.telecommunity.com/

However, I'm not sure if that will provide enough of the 'web' side of things.

Cheers,
Nick.

--
Nick Coghlan | nc******@email.com | Brisbane, Australia
---------------------------------------------------------------
http://boredomandlaziness.skystorm.net

[Ian Bicking]

mi******@gmail.com wrote:

There are great Python Web Application Framework. But most of them are
meant for content oriented web apps.

Is there something that can ease the development of application that
are not content oriented(I call them "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB
APPLICATIONS" because I don't know what else to call them).
Maybe you mean "interactive web applications", as opposed to
"document-centric" applications? But then, that's what most frameworks
are really designed for.
I mean the
applications like, accounting, high volume data entry apps, where
normally GUI clients have ruled. I know very high quality ERP and
similar packages have been implemented in a web based environment. But
problem is that they have been developed with the tools that were
actually meant for content oriented apps like Zope, PHP, etc.
Zope I'd say is content-oriented, though with a bit of imagination you
can phrase these applications in terms of "content". PHP and many other
Python frameworks are process-oriented, meaning that each request just
plain executes some code. Which is true of Zope too, but the basic
metaphors in Zope are that a request displays the view of some object,
which is a little more abstract way of looking at it.
But is there some sort of framework or something that is actually meant
for such web apps,application that make heavy use of forms, have very
high amount of user interaction etc.
Do you mean non-traditional web applications, ala gmail? Probably not,
I think you are talking about certain framework concerns that most
frameworks aspire to in some fashion, but actually achieve to differing
degrees. PEAK addresses some of these, but in a UI-neutral way, and
it's quite experimental (at least in the perspective of a whole
application; as robust as the individual pieces may be, there's no real
model for how to use it for a full application).

There's other form processing libraries, but they all are experimental
in a way. I developed FormEncode, which relates to some of this. Zope
3 has Schemas, which can be used for form generation and validation, and
Plone has Archetypes. I don't think there's anything that's a Whole
Package, but Zope 3 and Plone/Archetypes might be the closest (depending
on what your vision is).
What I am asking here may sound off beat, but I think, in todays world
where web based solutions offers such a flexibility, we really need it.

I also know that I am to ambiguous, but as is the characteristic of
this wonderful community, talks that start as most abigous, transform
in crystal clear.

PS: I am a web developer, using PHP for living. I have been playing
with python for a while. I found python is really a cool language(do I
need to say that ;-)) with a really, really impressive collection of
modules and frameworks. While developing a school information system, I
felt the need of such a framework that makes developing of "Non-Content
Oriented Web-Apps" easy.

Eh, it just needs some clear direction for *any* kind of web apps, IMHO.

But with what you are specifically asking for, I think it's just a Hard
Problem that Is Not Yet Solved, though there is work being done and
people are attacking it from different directions.

--
Ian Bicking / ia**@colorstudy.com / http://blog.ianbicking.org

[Stephen Thorne]

On 1 Jan 2005 20:51:06 -0800, mi******@gmail.com <mi******@gmail.com> wrote:

But is there some sort of framework or something that is actually meant
for such web apps,application that make heavy use of forms, have very
high amount of user interaction etc.
<etc>

Yeah, nevow, by those crazy twisted people, is great. The underlying
concept is 'object publishing', and has some very funky technology for
live-updating of a client-side web page via javascript (ala gmail).

Object publishing is along the lines of, instead of having a 'form',
you have an object which represents data. It knows how to handle form
submissions, validate data, etc. And you 'publish' that object. The
user can then interact with that object.

Anyway, I haven't mucked around with nevow for months, you're better
off checking out nevow.com and divmod.org yourself.

Stephen.

[Sridhar]

You need Twisted - http://twistedmatrix.com
---
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sridharinfinity

[Alan Gauld]

On 1 Jan 2005 20:51:06 -0800, mi******@gmail.com wrote:

Is there something that can ease the development of application that
are not content oriented(I call them "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB
APPLICATIONS" because I don't know what else to call them). I mean the
applications like, accounting, high volume data entry apps, where
normally GUI clients have ruled. I know very high quality ERP

I don;t know of any such frameworks.

The Siebel CRM system may be the kind of thing you mean I think,
but it uses standard technology. IT just puts up a form then uses
client side Javascript to detect changes and send the data
requests to/from the data server... No special frameworks as
such...

HTH,

Alan G.
Author of the Learn to Program website
http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld

[mirnazim]

I have started a topic that is really vauge. I knew that this topic is
very general and abstract but I think it turned out to be more general
that I had expected.

Let me make an attemp at defining "Non-Content Oriented Web
Applications".

A "Non-Content Oriented Web Application":
(1) will be accessed from web browser(obviously).

(2) will be developed using 'W3C' and other open standards(STRICTLY, to
ensure compatibility and portablity).

(3) will expose some kind of functionality to the user, not just some
document to read.

(4) functionality can be very simple to very complex.

I sat down to define what I actually mean by "Non-Content Oriented Web
Applications" with a fairly clear idea, But suddenly every thing
vanished from my mind, "OH MY GOD, I AM OUT OF WORDS". I think all of
you have been i such situation at least once. So please help me in
defining these "Non-Content Oriented Web Applications". To give a
example, I think GMAIL comes quite close to what I am talking aout.

[paolo_veronelli]

mi******@gmail.com wrote:

I have started a topic that is really vauge. I knew that this topic is
very general and abstract but I think it turned out to be more general
that I had expected.

Let me make an attemp at defining "Non-Content Oriented Web
Applications".

A "Non-Content Oriented Web Application":
(1) will be accessed from web browser(obviously).

(2) will be developed using 'W3C' and other open standards(STRICTLY, to
ensure compatibility and portablity).

(3) will expose some kind of functionality to the user, not just some
document to read.

(4) functionality can be very simple to very complex.

I sat down to define what I actually mean by "Non-Content Oriented Web
Applications" with a fairly clear idea, But suddenly every thing
vanished from my mind, "OH MY GOD, I AM OUT OF WORDS". I think all of
you have been i such situation at least once. So please help me in
defining these "Non-Content Oriented Web Applications". To give a
example, I think GMAIL comes quite close to what I am talking aout.

Well,this is what we are working on,about point 2) 1) ~3) ~4) ,but I
really don't think it has something strongly related with gmail.

We are using nevow and rdf,mainly.Nevow for rendering pages,and rdf to
build them on the fly.

Probably,what I find related to your questions in this project is the
open server ontology we are trying to build.

Eventually ontologies and semantics have nothing to do with python core(
:-(( ),but with a good scripting language it's easy to mix semantic net
querying with pages ,rendering technical, nevow code.

This way functionalities of the service are changed,and built during the
service run,just adding triples to the semantic net and changing the
contents sticked to its nodes.

We hope to have code in the contents of the semantic net soon.This will
allow to upload a piece of code ,some templates,together with the right
metadatas in the semantic net
and see the service implied running around in the pages which URI is
matched by the pattern coded in the metadata of the service.

It's not clear to me also,but this is how it works:using semantic
matching(which can be very complex) to decide the interface to
information pieces an URL renders.

Last but not least,all the informations ,their logic and the rendering
engine end functionalities(templates and their specific code),are
distribuited as definition as the reside in the semantic net service.My
poor english(and stoned mind).

I hope I got something of your lost words,have fun and have a look at
www.pytypus.org.

Yours

[remi]

Have a look a the new CherryPy (http://www.cherrypy.org).

It allows developers to build web applications in much the same way
they would build any other object-oriented Python program.
This might corespond to what you're looking for.

Remi.

[paolo_veronelli]

mi******@gmail.com wrote:

Hi,

There are great Python Web Application Framework. But most of them are
meant for content oriented web apps.

Is there something that can ease the development of application that
are not content oriented(I call them "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB
APPLICATIONS" because I don't know what else to call them). I mean the
applications like, accounting, high volume data entry apps, where
normally GUI clients have ruled. I know very high quality ERP and
similar packages have been implemented in a web based environment. But
problem is that they have been developed with the tools that were
actually meant for content oriented apps like Zope, PHP, etc.

But is there some sort of framework or something that is actually meant
for such web apps,application that make heavy use of forms, have very
high amount of user interaction etc.

What I am asking here may sound off beat, but I think, in todays world
where web based solutions offers such a flexibility, we really need it.

I also know that I am to ambiguous, but as is the characteristic of
this wonderful community, talks that start as most abigous, transform
in crystal clear.

PS: I am a web developer, using PHP for living. I have been playing
with python for a while. I found python is really a cool language(do I
need to say that ;-)) with a really, really impressive collection of
modules and frameworks. While developing a school information system, I
felt the need of such a framework that makes developing of "Non-Content
Oriented Web-Apps" easy.

I know I posted a similar message earlier, but this time I a bit more
general.

In pytypus everything is not content is metadata( a part from some of
the code ,which part is useful for accessing informations) ,so my
definition will simply be metadata oriented.

[michele.simionato]

Well, with your first post you managed to get a very unclear picture of
what you mean by "non-content oriented Web Application" ;-)

Judging from your following posts, you want an easy way to construct
Web interfaces, i.e. forms. This can be done with any Web framework,
but a typical Web framework provides a lots of content-related
functionality
you don't want. For instance you could use Plone for your task, but you
would waste 99% of its functionality and it would be absolutely
overkill.

If I had to write a Web application such as Webmin, for instance, i.e.
one that use a Web interface to manage other applications, I would
use Quixote as my Web framework of choice. Its key points are
simplicity and the fact that it provides *very little*. Just the form
library would be enough for you. Since the different part of Quixote
are well separated, the learning curve is really really small.

It also takes a little time to evaluate it. I suggest you to give a
look
at it.
Michele Simionato

[Alex Martelli]

<mi******@gmail.com> wrote:

Moreover, I recently saw Dabo(http://www.dabodev.com/about), a
framework for developing 3 tier apps with Python and wxPython(and other
supported GUI toolkits). I have not tried it but I think something
similar, but for web-apps, is a close definition of "A Framework for
Non-Content Oriented Web Apps".

Once you're on a multilayer track, whether the presentation is on the
web or on some other UI should just be an issue for the very last layer
(closest to the user). That's definitely how we did things at AB Strakt
(www.strakt.com). Of course, the web-based presentation layer will be
generally simpler/poorer than ones based on richer GUI toolkits -- as a
compensation, it may more easily be "skinnable" by using CSS and the
like, and it's way more easily _testable_ thanks to many good packages
for webpage-generators testing.
Alex

[mirnazim]

-----------------------
Well, I think a we can say that a framework for "Non Content Oriented
Web Apps" is something that can help in
(*) creating N tier data aware web applications
(*) creating data-aware controls (forms etc.).
(*) managing different data sources
transparently(ZODB,MySQL,PostGreSQL, etc).
(*) de-coupling UI, Business Logic and Data Sources from each other.
(*) provide transaction management facilities(am I asking too much).
-----------------------

I think there is something more to the above points than just a
construction of web interfaces like forms etc. I never said that it
should be something really big(like Zope). I have looked at Quixote and
is really cool. But I think we need something more than just a forms
processing libary.

Alext Martelli:

Once you're on a multilayer track, whether the presentation
is on the web or on some other UI should just be an
issue for the very last layer(closest to the user).

I agree in an multi-tier application UI is the last layer issue, but
the point here is that there should be some thing that can make
connection of web controls to various data sources easy. Of course this
is just UI issue of many others that are not UI issues.