Playing with Prothon today, I am fascinated by the idea of eliminating
classes in Python. I'm trying to figure out what fundamental benefit
there is to having classes. Is all this complexity unecessary?
Here is an example of a Python class with all three types of methods
(instance, static, and class methods).
# Example from Ch.23, p.381-2 of Learning Python, 2nd ed.
class Multi:
numInstances = 0
def __init__(self):
Multi.numInstan ces += 1
def printNumInstanc es():
print "Number of Instances:", Multi.numInstan ces
printNumInstanc es = staticmethod(pr intNumInstances )
def cmeth(cls, x):
print cls, x
cmeth = classmethod(cme th)
a = Multi(); b = Multi(); c = Multi()
Multi.printNumI nstances()
a.printNumInsta nces()
Multi.cmeth(5)
b.cmeth(6)
Here is the translation to Prothon.
Multi = Object()
with Multi:
.numInstances = 0
def .__init__(): # instance method
Multi.numInstan ces += 1
def .printNumInstan ces(): # static method
print "Number of Instances:", Multi.numInstan ces
def .cmeth(x): # class method
print Multi, x
a = Multi(); b = Multi(); c = Multi()
Multi.printNumI nstances()
a.printNumInsta nces()
Multi.cmeth(5)
b.cmeth(6)
Note the elimination of 'self' in these methods. This is not just a
syntactic shortcut (substiting '.' for 'self') By eliminating this
explicit passing of the self object, Prothon makes all method forms
the same and eliminates a lot of complexity. It's beginning to look
like the complexity of Python classes is unecessary.
My question for the Python experts is -- What user benefit are we
missing if we eliminate classes?
-- Dave
Jul 18 '05
145  6292 
Mutability is an interesting area. I just added an unmutable bit in the
Prothon internal object which makes the read_lock call a no-op and causes a
write_lock call to throw an exception. This makes the object
write-protected and makes the lock code run much faster.
I did this for internal performance reasons, but after doing it I realize
that extending it to the Ruby freeze() level would be really good. Tying
the freezing in somehow to the bang! methods is also in interesting area of
research.
Mark Hahn (Prothon Author)
P.S. If this belongs in the Prothon list instead of Python, let us know.
"David MacQuigg" <dm*@gain.com > wrote in message
news:bi******** *************** *********@4ax.c om... On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:15:34 -0500, "John Roth"
<ne********@jhr othjr.com> wrote:
"Paul Prescod" <pa**@prescod.n et> wrote in message
news:ma******* *************** *************** @python.org... John Roth wrote:
> It's certainly true that in a prototype based language all objects
> exist: there are no objects that the compiler deals with but does
> not put into the resulting program. And it's quite true that it does
> open up the floodgates for a lot of messiness.
Ummm. This is also true for Python. Python classes exist at runtime.
foo = 5
class foo: # oops. I've overwritten foo
def bar(self):
pass
print foo
print dir(foo)
print type(foo)
Paul Prescod
Sure. But misusing classes as instances is quite rare in
practice, and plugging members into instances is also
quite rare in practice. Python's highly dynamic nature
opens it up to a lot of difficulty in principle, but most
deveopers seem to be quite disciplined in their use of
dynamism.
The difficulty here is simply that there is no way of
isolating a base object that is supposed to be the platform
for other objects from objects that are supposed to be
updatable with new behavior.
The higher a tower you want to build, the firmer the
foundation. Conventions help, but if the conventions
are helped along by the language, that's even better.
In Ruby you can freeze() any object. But it seems like in this case,
just giving your base object a distinct name, like PrototypePolygo n
will remind you not to change its definition later as you create
triangles, rectangles, etc.
I also would have no objection to some syntactic lock, like any object
name ending in an underscore is an immutable object. We could also do
this the other way around. Objects, by default are immutable. That
would take care of most uses. If you want a mutable object, give it a
name ending in ! (bang).
-- Dave
"Mark Hahn" <ma**@prothon.o rg> wrote in message
news:AHF9c.4904 8$cx5.33872@fed 1read04... I didn't know I was going the opposite direction from Python. I guess I'll
have to change that.
I guess I didn't make it clear that no design decisions were frozen in the
language.
Mark Hahn (Prothon Author)
Thank you. That wasn't the impression I had picked up from
the third party discussion of the issue earlier.
John Roth
"John Roth" <ne********@jhr othjr.com> wrote in message
news:10******** *****@news.supe rnews.com...
"Mark Hahn" <ma**@prothon.o rg> wrote in message
news:v0r9c.3898 8$cx5.22021@fed 1read04... > although for reasons I've mentioned elsewhere, I won't use Prothon.
Can you please point me to those reasons?
Since I got into a minor flame war over them, including a
very snide and oh so superior response from one yahoo
who almost hit my killfile over it, I'll just mention that there
are ***very good***, that is ***extremely good***
reasons why the Python standard is to use spaces for
indentation, and why the option of using tabs will be
removed in 3.0.
There are enough interesting languages out there to
investigate that I simply won't bother with candidates
that don't play fair with ***all*** the tools I use,
or that people I communicate with use.
John Roth
"Mark Hahn" <ma**@prothon.o rg> wrote in message
news:ZNF9c.4910 8$cx5.10276@fed 1read04... Mutability is an interesting area. I just added an unmutable bit in the
Prothon internal object which makes the read_lock call a no-op and causes
a write_lock call to throw an exception. This makes the object
write-protected and makes the lock code run much faster.
I did this for internal performance reasons, but after doing it I realize
that extending it to the Ruby freeze() level would be really good. Tying
the freezing in somehow to the bang! methods is also in interesting area
of research.
Mark Hahn (Prothon Author)
I think that's a very rational way to go about it. I don't think that
lexical
labeling will work, though. It makes initialization too difficult.
John Roth
P.S. If this belongs in the Prothon list instead of Python, let us know.
"David MacQuigg" <dm*@gain.com > wrote in message
news:bi******** *************** *********@4ax.c om... On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:15:34 -0500, "John Roth"
<ne********@jhr othjr.com> wrote:
"Paul Prescod" <pa**@prescod.n et> wrote in message
news:ma******* *************** *************** @python.org...
> John Roth wrote:
>
> > It's certainly true that in a prototype based language all objects
> > exist: there are no objects that the compiler deals with but does
> > not put into the resulting program. And it's quite true that it
does> > open up the floodgates for a lot of messiness.
>
> Ummm. This is also true for Python. Python classes exist at runtime.
>
> foo = 5
>
> class foo: # oops. I've overwritten foo
> def bar(self):
> pass
>
> print foo
> print dir(foo)
> print type(foo)
>
> Paul Prescod
Sure. But misusing classes as instances is quite rare in
practice, and plugging members into instances is also
quite rare in practice. Python's highly dynamic nature
opens it up to a lot of difficulty in principle, but most
deveopers seem to be quite disciplined in their use of
dynamism.
The difficulty here is simply that there is no way of
isolating a base object that is supposed to be the platform
for other objects from objects that are supposed to be
updatable with new behavior.
The higher a tower you want to build, the firmer the
foundation. Conventions help, but if the conventions
are helped along by the language, that's even better.
In Ruby you can freeze() any object. But it seems like in this case,
just giving your base object a distinct name, like PrototypePolygo n
will remind you not to change its definition later as you create
triangles, rectangles, etc.
I also would have no objection to some syntactic lock, like any object
name ending in an underscore is an immutable object. We could also do
this the other way around. Objects, by default are immutable. That
would take care of most uses. If you want a mutable object, give it a
name ending in ! (bang).
-- Dave
I'm totally confused. There was a statement of fact about how compilers
work which I refuted. Now it's shifting to a question of programming style.
Let's recap:
John Roth wrote: "Paul Prescod" <pa**@prescod.n et> wrote in message
news:ma******** *************** **************@ python.org...
John Roth wrote:
It's certainly true that in a prototype based language all objects
exist: there are no objects that the compiler deals with but does
not put into the resulting program. And it's quite true that it does
open up the floodgates for a lot of messiness.
I responded:
Ummm. This is also true for Python. Python classes exist at runtime.
Given
class A:
pass
a = A()
Both "a" and "A" are put in the "resulting program" (bytecodes) just as
they would in a prototype-based language. A() is a completely
first-class object, just like a prototype in a prototype-based language.
Paul Prescod
Mark,
I see most discussion about Prothon is concerning prototypes.
Can you explain to me in easy words, why it is NOT possible to integrate
prototypes into Python to stand "side by side" with classes?
I never had a problem to "add an attribute" to an existing object; I really
can't see why it should be more than some small hacks to allow "adding a
function to an existing object".
Harald
They're planning to remove tab indention support in 3.0? I for one would
be pissed off at such a change. I don't mind people using spaces if they
like but I see no reason I shouldn't be able to use tabs if I like. I
can't see how it should make any difference to Python which you use so
why not allow for personal preference? I'll just mention that there
are ***very good***, that is ***extremely good***
reasons why the Python standard is to use spaces for
indentation, and why the option of using tabs will be
removed in 3.0.
"Harald Massa" <cp*********@sp amgourmet.com> wrote in message
news:Xn******** *************** **********@62.1 53.159.134... Mark,
I see most discussion about Prothon is concerning prototypes.
Can you explain to me in easy words, why it is NOT possible to integrate
prototypes into Python to stand "side by side" with classes?
I never had a problem to "add an attribute" to an existing object; I
really can't see why it should be more than some small hacks to allow "adding a
function to an existing object".
As you note, you can do that with a simple assignment,
and it will work. The two problems are:
1. The clone operation
2. Syntax sugar to make it all nice and palatable.
I suspect that a usable clone() operation is less
than 10 lines. The syntax sugar, on the other hand,
will IMNSHO, take forever to get agreement.
John Roth
Harald
They're planning to remove tab indention support in 3.0? I for one would
be pissed off at such a change. I don't mind people using spaces if they
like but I see no reason I shouldn't be able to use tabs if I like. I
can't see how it should make any difference to Python which you use so
why not allow for personal preference? I'll just mention that there
are ***very good***, that is ***extremely good***
reasons why the Python standard is to use spaces for
indentation, and why the option of using tabs will be
removed in 3.0.
Michael <mo*****@mlug.m issouri.edu> wrote: They're planning to remove tab indention support in 3.0? I for one
would be pissed off at such a change. I don't mind people using spaces
if they like but I see no reason I shouldn't be able to use tabs if I
like. I can't see how it should make any difference to Python which
you use so why not allow for personal preference?
I'll just mention that there are ***very good***, that is
***extremely good*** reasons why the Python standard is to use spaces
for indentation, and why the option of using tabs will be removed in
3.0.
This space-vs-tab war is just insane. I wish Prothon/Python would use
block terminator, if only to kill this silly trollings.
--
William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, <op**********@y ahoo.ca>
Linux solution for data processing and document management.
William Park wrote: Michael <mo*****@mlug.m issouri.edu> wrote: They're planning to remove tab indention support in 3.0? I for one
would be pissed off at such a change. I don't mind people using spaces
if they like but I see no reason I shouldn't be able to use tabs if I
like. I can't see how it should make any difference to Python which
you use so why not allow for personal preference?
>I'll just mention that there are ***very good***, that is
>***extremely good*** reasons why the Python standard is to use spaces
>for indentation, and why the option of using tabs will be removed in
>3.0.
This space-vs-tab war is just insane. I wish Prothon/Python would use
block terminator, if only to kill this silly trollings.
Right. Then we can have "does the brace go on the same line or the
next line" wars.
--
CARL BANKS http://www.aerojockey.com/software
"If you believe in yourself, drink your school, stay on drugs, and
don't do milk, you can get work."
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