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The "Ajax Frameworks" End

P: n/a
Well, everybody can now agree with the fact that the Ajax hype is over.
Still multiple Ajax Frameworks are flourishing, aren't they?
So, last night I questioned myself with the following: "When Ajax
Frameworks will be gone? What is required to get rid of them and start
using browsers?" (To be more precise, I should probably also mention
what kind of frameworks do i mean. These are: Dojo, BackBase, Qooxdoo
etc.)
I've got an answer that I would like to discuss with people here.

My statement is: once IE has got a proper implementation of DOM-Level-3
and XBL (of course, w3c should first advance their drafts to
recommendations of all modules of these technologies)

Would anyone like to express their opinions on the topic? Does anybody
see any other missing base technologies that these frameworks are now
trying to fullfill?

Sergey Ilinsky

Sep 14 '06 #1
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3 Replies


P: n/a
caston said the following on 9/14/2006 4:12 AM:
Well, everybody can now agree with the fact that the Ajax hype is over.
Still multiple Ajax Frameworks are flourishing, aren't they?
Depends on who you ask and where you look.
So, last night I questioned myself with the following: "When Ajax
Frameworks will be gone? What is required to get rid of them and start
using browsers?" (To be more precise, I should probably also mention
what kind of frameworks do i mean. These are: Dojo, BackBase, Qooxdoo
etc.)
"Get rid of them and start using browsers"?? You can't use AJAX without
a browser. But, start educating people on the better alternatives
(dynamically loading script files is a start) and you will see it start
to end.
I've got an answer that I would like to discuss with people here.
A better answer would be along the lines of:

As soon as people realize there is a better/easier way than the so
called "AJAX" then the AJAX Craze will die. Or, another buzzword comes
along to trump it.
My statement is: once IE has got a proper implementation of DOM-Level-3
and XBL (of course, w3c should first advance their drafts to
recommendations of all modules of these technologies)
MSIE doesn't support xHTML and you want to tie the AJAX craze to MS
doing something in line with what the W3C has to say? Think about it.
Would anyone like to express their opinions on the topic?
See above :)
Does anybody see any other missing base technologies that these
frameworks are now trying to fullfill?
"missing base technologies"? The answer to that question depends on what
it is your are referring to as missing base technologies. The Web
survived before AJAX and it will survive after AJAX. It will just come
to an end quicker when people stop using it solely to be able to say
"Yeah, we use AJAX on our site".
--
Randy
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq & newsgroup weekly
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/
Sep 14 '06 #2

P: n/a
Randy Webb wrote:
caston said the following on 9/14/2006 4:12 AM:
Well, everybody can now agree with the fact that the Ajax hype is over.
Still multiple Ajax Frameworks are flourishing, aren't they?

Depends on who you ask and where you look.
So, last night I questioned myself with the following: "When Ajax
Frameworks will be gone? What is required to get rid of them and start
using browsers?" (To be more precise, I should probably also mention
what kind of frameworks do i mean. These are: Dojo, BackBase, Qooxdoo
etc.)

"Get rid of them and start using browsers"?? You can't use AJAX without
a browser. But, start educating people on the better alternatives
(dynamically loading script files is a start) and you will see it start
to end.
I've got an answer that I would like to discuss with people here.

A better answer would be along the lines of:

As soon as people realize there is a better/easier way than the so
called "AJAX" then the AJAX Craze will die. Or, another buzzword comes
along to trump it.
My statement is: once IE has got a proper implementation of DOM-Level-3
and XBL (of course, w3c should first advance their drafts to
recommendations of all modules of these technologies)

MSIE doesn't support xHTML and you want to tie the AJAX craze to MS
doing something in line with what the W3C has to say? Think about it.
Would anyone like to express their opinions on the topic?

See above :)
Does anybody see any other missing base technologies that these
frameworks are now trying to fullfill?

"missing base technologies"? The answer to that question depends on what
it is your are referring to as missing base technologies. The Web
survived before AJAX and it will survive after AJAX. It will just come
to an end quicker when people stop using it solely to be able to say
"Yeah, we use AJAX on our site".
--
Randy
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq & newsgroup weekly
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/
Well, I might have been not clear with the topic. I considered "Ajax
Frameworks" as libraries that deliver:
- set of enhanced user interaction controls (to enable "better" user
experience)
Future: controls implemented on XBL with XHTML/SVG/CSS
- api for cross-browser manipulation on browser DOM (in order to make
application logic not dependable on browser but on api)
Future: DOM-Level-3 (Core, Events. XPath)
- set of effects/transitions
Future: SMIL
- wrapper around XMLHttpRequest object
Present: native XMLHttpRequest object

So, conclusion: once everything marked as "Future" is implemented in
major browsers, Ajax Frameworks/Toolkits are useless!

Or?

Sergey Ilinsky/

Sep 14 '06 #3

P: n/a
caston wrote:
<snip>
Well, I might have been not clear with the topic. I considered "Ajax
Frameworks" as libraries that deliver:
- set of enhanced user interaction controls (to enable "better" user
experience)
Future: controls implemented on XBL with XHTML/SVG/CSS
- api for cross-browser manipulation on browser DOM (in order to make
application logic not dependable on browser but on api)
Future: DOM-Level-3 (Core, Events. XPath)
- set of effects/transitions
Future: SMIL
- wrapper around XMLHttpRequest object
Present: native XMLHttpRequest object

So, conclusion: once everything marked as "Future" is implemented in
major browsers, Ajax Frameworks/Toolkits are useless!
Well, at one time ( almost a decade ago ) I might
have agreed with you more, however even when the *future* becomes
a *now*, the goal posts will just beat a hasty retreat
into the future once more.

We will always be faced with innovations and differing
implementations of same and various frameworks for
addressing the larger goals of applications and infrastructure
development.

Since the w3 and related specifications is what almost
all browsers claim to pursue, that is where I
look first for solutions and design ideas.

Over the years the w3 standards/recommendations have
continuously improved in their ability to provide
standards based options , but alas there is still *future*
evolution required to eliminate the need for frameworks
while of course we are still waiting for browsers to fully
support what we have even *now*.

Frameworks of one form or another are going to be with us
for many years more.

These days though , one does not need to have a giant
monolithic framework as the distances from day to day
development needs and an applicable w3 spec are getting
smaller all the time, thus the new breed of frameworks
starts as a really thin background transactions
managers for loading libraries and performing
transactions in a reliable DOM friendly way.

For example in the (LAMPjack) framework , one
loads a libraries via simple CSS entries like these
below. The libraries loaded then have a reliable
( with retries) method of making
queries to databases, WSDL,RSS,XML-RPC,REST etc
with the results being easily formatted with standards
based XSL files in memory and piped to the target div.

<div class="wPoint_login" />
A sign up / login with email verification, email password,
change password etc.

<div class="wPoint_search" />
In that instance the framework injects a tiny
little library that creates a WSDL based google
search and results display in the page.

<div class="wPoint_mysqlbrowse" />
select from foo where somefield='bar'
</div>
browses my database.

As I said , frameworks of one form or another
will be around for some time.
Sep 14 '06 #4

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