Does JavaScript represent its controls internally as Microsoft Windows controls,
or does it build them from scratch like Java?
69  4074 
JRS: In article <QGHDg.3811$uW1.51@dukeread06>, dated Sun, 13 Aug 2006
10:37:22 remote, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Peter Olcott
<ol****@att.netposted :
>Does JavaScript represent its controls internally as Microsoft Windows controls,
or does it build them from scratch like Java?
No.
Javascript runs on various operating systems, most not being MS Windows.
Javascript does not have controls, but allows access to controls built
by other parts of the system.
--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Delphi 3 Turnpike 4 ©
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/TP/BP/Delphi/&c., FAQqy topics & links;
<URL:http://www.bancoems.com/CompLangPascalDelphiMisc-MiniFAQ.htmclpdmFAQ;
<URL:http://www.borland.com/newsgroups/guide.htmlnews:borland.* Guidelines
"Dr John Stockton" <jr*@merlyn.demon.co.ukwrote in message
news:Lt**************@merlyn.demon.co.uk...
JRS: In article <QGHDg.3811$uW1.51@dukeread06>, dated Sun, 13 Aug 2006
10:37:22 remote, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Peter Olcott
<ol****@att.netposted :
>>Does JavaScript represent its controls internally as Microsoft Windows
controls,
or does it build them from scratch like Java?
No.
Javascript runs on various operating systems, most not being MS Windows.
Javascript does not have controls, but allows access to controls built
by other parts of the system.
From what I remember, JavaScript can place a button on the screen. Is this
correct, and are you then saying that on the MS Windows platform, this would be
internally represented as an MS Windows Button?
--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Delphi 3 Turnpike 4 ©
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/TP/BP/Delphi/&c., FAQqy topics & links;
<URL:http://www.bancoems.com/CompLangPascalDelphiMisc-MiniFAQ.htmclpdmFAQ;
<URL:http://www.borland.com/newsgroups/guide.htmlnews:borland.* Guidelines
Peter Olcott wrote:
"Dr John Stockton" <jr*@merlyn.demon.co.ukwrote in message
news:Lt**************@merlyn.demon.co.uk...
JRS: In article <QGHDg.3811$uW1.51@dukeread06>, dated Sun, 13 Aug 2006
10:37:22 remote, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Peter Olcott
<ol****@att.netposted :
>Does JavaScript represent its controls internally as Microsoft Windows
controls,
or does it build them from scratch like Java?
No.
Javascript runs on various operating systems, most not being MS Windows.
Javascript does not have controls, but allows access to controls built
by other parts of the system.
From what I remember, JavaScript can place a button on the screen. Is this
The difference between the core ECMAScript (JavaScript) language, its
built-in objects and those provided by a host environment are explained
here:
<URL: http://www.jibbering.com/faq/#FAQ2_6 >
correct, and are you then saying that on the MS Windows platform, this would be
internally represented as an MS Windows Button?
"Internally"? The ECMAScript specification does not detail how things
should be implemented, it just descibes the language itself.
"[ECMAScript] is a programming language that is used to manipulate,
customise, and automate the facilities of an existing system."
ECMAScript Language Specification section 4.
The host environment provides objects that have properties and methods,
JavaScript can be used to manipulate those objects to the extent
allowed by the host.
Most browsers provide a scriptable document object model (DOM) that
allows a script to create DOM objects (buttons, text inputs,
paragraphs, etc.) that can be manipulated using standard W3C properties
and methods as well as proprietary ones provided by the particular
browser.
The "button" that a host environment makes available in a DOM may be
different to the one that it provides to it's own development
environment. If I am running Firefox on Windows and use JavaScript to
create a button in a page, in what sense is that a "Windows button"?
If I use OmniWeb on Mac OS X and run the same script, will I get a "Mac
OS X button"?
Why does it matter? JavaScript use is not limited to browsers, nor
must it be used with a UI. All it needs is a scriptable host
environment.
--
Rob
"Peter Olcott" <ol****@att.netschrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:QGHDg.3811$uW1.51@dukeread06...
Does JavaScript represent its controls internally as Microsoft
Windows controls, or does it build them from scratch like Java?
It depends on the browser and version you use. Some place a real Win32
window with button class on the page, others just place an image that
"looks" like the win32 button. Others just place a grey rectable with
text as a button.
You should not care, since in JS you can't access more than just "a
button" - no matter what the browser made of it.
"RobG" <rg***@iinet.net.auwrote in message
news:11**********************@75g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
Peter Olcott wrote:
>"Dr John Stockton" <jr*@merlyn.demon.co.ukwrote in message
news:Lt**************@merlyn.demon.co.uk...
JRS: In article <QGHDg.3811$uW1.51@dukeread06>, dated Sun, 13 Aug 2006
10:37:22 remote, seen in news:comp.lang.javascript, Peter Olcott
<ol****@att.netposted :
Does JavaScript represent its controls internally as Microsoft Windows
controls,
or does it build them from scratch like Java?
No.
Javascript runs on various operating systems, most not being MS Windows.
Javascript does not have controls, but allows access to controls built
by other parts of the system.
From what I remember, JavaScript can place a button on the screen. Is this
The difference between the core ECMAScript (JavaScript) language, its
built-in objects and those provided by a host environment are explained
here:
<URL: http://www.jibbering.com/faq/#FAQ2_6 >
>correct, and are you then saying that on the MS Windows platform, this would
be
internally represented as an MS Windows Button?
"Internally"? The ECMAScript specification does not detail how things
should be implemented, it just descibes the language itself.
"[ECMAScript] is a programming language that is used to manipulate,
customise, and automate the facilities of an existing system."
ECMAScript Language Specification section 4.
The host environment provides objects that have properties and methods,
JavaScript can be used to manipulate those objects to the extent
allowed by the host.
Most browsers provide a scriptable document object model (DOM) that
allows a script to create DOM objects (buttons, text inputs,
paragraphs, etc.) that can be manipulated using standard W3C properties
and methods as well as proprietary ones provided by the particular
browser.
The "button" that a host environment makes available in a DOM may be
different to the one that it provides to it's own development
environment. If I am running Firefox on Windows and use JavaScript to
create a button in a page, in what sense is that a "Windows button"?
If I use OmniWeb on Mac OS X and run the same script, will I get a "Mac
OS X button"?
Why does it matter? JavaScript use is not limited to browsers, nor
must it be used with a UI. All it needs is a scriptable host
environment.
It matters to my specific task at hand. I am estimating the possible ways that a
competitor could achieve the same functionality as my patented invention without
violating my patent. For this reason I need to know the extent to which
graphical user interface controls are actually implemented in ways other than
using native Win32 objects on the Win32 platform. Java Swing was one specific
example of this.
>
--
Rob
"Gernot Frisch" <Me@Privacy.netwrote in message
news:4k************@individual.net...
>
"Peter Olcott" <ol****@att.netschrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:QGHDg.3811$uW1.51@dukeread06...
>Does JavaScript represent its controls internally as Microsoft Windows
controls, or does it build them from scratch like Java?
It depends on the browser and version you use. Some place a real Win32 window
with button class on the page, others just place an image that "looks" like
the win32 button. Others just place a grey rectable with text as a button.
You should not care, since in JS you can't access more than just "a button" -
no matter what the browser made of it.
I care for reasons stated in my prior response. I need to know this.
Peter Olcott wrote:
>
It matters to my specific task at hand. I am estimating the possible ways that a
competitor could achieve the same functionality as my patented invention without
violating my patent. For this reason I need to know the extent to which
graphical user interface controls are actually implemented in ways other than
using native Win32 objects on the Win32 platform. Java Swing was one specific
example of this.
A patent (limited though they are anyway) applies to an *invention* and
not to an *implementation*. If you have invented something then the GUI
you use to do it is irrelevant. Frankly, you should remember that the
entire patent is mostly irrelevant anyway, since software cannot be
patented in most of the world and most countries will simply ignore your
patent anyway.
"The Magpie" <us****@mpreston.demon.co.ukwrote in message
news:eb*******************@news.demon.co.uk...
Peter Olcott wrote:
>>
It matters to my specific task at hand. I am estimating the possible ways
that a
competitor could achieve the same functionality as my patented invention
without
violating my patent. For this reason I need to know the extent to which
graphical user interface controls are actually implemented in ways other than
using native Win32 objects on the Win32 platform. Java Swing was one specific
example of this.
A patent (limited though they are anyway) applies to an *invention* and
not to an *implementation*. If you have invented something then the GUI
you use to do it is irrelevant. Frankly, you should remember that the
entire patent is mostly irrelevant anyway, since software cannot be
patented in most of the world and most countries will simply ignore your
patent anyway.
The United States represents about half of the world software market, so that
patent has good coverage, in half the world. The rest of the world must still
legally respect the copyright. My original question can not be rephrased. What I
really need to know is exactly how difficult it is for another program to
determine the exact location and current state of any graphical user interface
controls. Someone told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.
Peter Olcott wrote:
<snip>
... . My original question can not be rephrased.
That would be a pity as your original question did not make sense in
javascript terms (javascript has no 'controls', instead relying on a
host to provide that type of facility). But It has been answered
anyway: browser hosts use Windows native input elements, their own
internal input elements and even Java Swing input elements (in the case
of IceBrowser at least).
What I really need to know is exactly how difficult it is for another
program
What is 'another program'?
to determine the exact location
Javascript executing in browser environments can determine the exact
pixel position (screen/ within the window and on the HTML page) of
elements being displayed in an HTML document that it is scripting
whenever the browser eposes sufficient information for that
determination to be possible (which is often, but not universally, the
case).
and current state of any graphical user interface controls.
What do you consider the 'state' of a graphical user Interface control?
Brower hosts expose properties of controls/elements to scripting and
the values of those properties are normal candidates to be considered
the 'state' of the control/element.
Someone told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.
AJAX is completely irrelevant to the issue.
Richard.
"Richard Cornford" <Ri*****@litotes.demon.co.ukwrote in message
news:11*********************@p79g2000cwp.googlegro ups.com...
Peter Olcott wrote:
<snip>
>... . My original question can not be rephrased.
That would be a pity as your original question did not make sense in
javascript terms (javascript has no 'controls', instead relying on a
host to provide that type of facility). But It has been answered
anyway: browser hosts use Windows native input elements, their own
internal input elements and even Java Swing input elements (in the case
of IceBrowser at least).
>What I really need to know is exactly how difficult it is for another
program
What is 'another program'?
If we assume that there is a JavaScript program running in the web-browser, the
other program is any program besides this program. In other words I need a way
to determine the exact location and current state of any graphical user
interface controls that are displayed in the web-browser, and this way must be
able to provide this information to a different program beside the one running
in the web-browser.
>
>to determine the exact location
Javascript executing in browser environments can determine the exact
pixel position (screen/ within the window and on the HTML page) of
elements being displayed in an HTML document that it is scripting
whenever the browser eposes sufficient information for that
determination to be possible (which is often, but not universally, the
case).
>and current state of any graphical user interface controls.
What do you consider the 'state' of a graphical user Interface control?
Is the checkbox currently checked or unchecked ("Current state" is a generic
term of the art of computer science).
Brower hosts expose properties of controls/elements to scripting and
the values of those properties are normal candidates to be considered
the 'state' of the control/element.
Great exactly how do they expose this, an API call?
>
>Someone told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.
AJAX is completely irrelevant to the issue.
The way that it was explained is that Ajax is a hodge podge conglomeration of
JavaScript, XML and some other things, and that these exposed properties are
exposed in an XML format.
>
Richard.
Peter Olcott wrote:
My original question
can not be rephrased. What I really need to know is exactly how
difficult it is for another program to determine the exact location
and current state of any graphical user interface controls. Someone
told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.
The text above makes it obvious that you completely lack a basic level of
understanding required to even ask an intelligent question on the matter.
Equate it to: "I'm trying to figure out how easy it is to change the stapler
in my car using a tennis ball. I heard that it is easy using a cricket
ball." Your terms and words are so disconnected as to be meaningless.
Without a more detailed explaination of exactly what your patent is, what
kind of answer you are looking for, and how exactly it relates to
javascript, no one will be able to help you.
--
Matt Kruse http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com http://www.AjaxToolbox.com
Maybe the answer is, yes, most people on this forum could write a
program (either in javascript or a compiled language like c++) that
could analyse the state of a browser that contains your application and
be able to determine what controls are present, their state, their
content, their position etc.
rgds
Sym
"Matt Kruse" <ne********@mattkruse.comwrote in message
news:eb*********@news2.newsguy.com...
Peter Olcott wrote:
>My original question
can not be rephrased. What I really need to know is exactly how
difficult it is for another program to determine the exact location
and current state of any graphical user interface controls. Someone
told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.
The text above makes it obvious that you completely lack a basic level of
understanding required to even ask an intelligent question on the matter.
Equate it to: "I'm trying to figure out how easy it is to change the stapler
in my car using a tennis ball. I heard that it is easy using a cricket ball."
Your terms and words are so disconnected as to be meaningless.
Without a more detailed explaination of exactly what your patent is, what kind
of answer you are looking for, and how exactly it relates to javascript, no
one will be able to help you.
--
Matt Kruse
http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com
http://www.AjaxToolbox.com
I have almost no understanding of JavaScript. http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/7046848
This technology enables a truly universal GUI scripting language to be created.
I am attempting to estimate how difficult it would be to approximate the
functional benefits of my technology using alternative means.
Peter Olcott wrote:
Richard Cornford wrote:
>Peter Olcott wrote:
<snip>
>>What I really need to know is exactly how difficult it is for another
program
What is 'another program'?
If we assume that there is a JavaScript program running in the web-browser,
OK.
the other program is any program besides this program.
Narrow it down, why don't you?
In other words I need a way to determine the exact location and
current state of any graphical user interface controls that are
displayed in the web-browser, and this way must be able to provide
this information to a different program beside the one running
in the web-browser.
Where a browser (combined with the context ) makes the determination of
the location of elements possible the results of such calculations may
be sent to a web server (which qualifies as your 'other program') in
various ways.
>>to determine the exact location
Javascript executing in browser environments can determine the exact
pixel position (screen/ within the window and on the HTML page) of
elements being displayed in an HTML document that it is scripting
whenever the browser eposes sufficient information for that
determination to be possible (which is often, but not universally, the
case).
>>and current state of any graphical user interface controls.
What do you consider the 'state' of a graphical user Interface
control?
Is the checkbox currently checked or unchecked
The W3C HTML DOM defined - HTMLInputElement - interface has a boolean -
checked - proprety, that represents a formalization of a traditional
feature of representations of input elements exposed to scripting.
("Current state" is a generic
term of the art of computer science).
And yet when asked for clarification you are only actually interested
in one aspect of the element's state.
>Brower hosts expose properties of controls/elements to scripting and
the values of those properties are normal candidates to be considered
the 'state' of the control/element.
Great exactly how do they expose this, an API call?
As properties of the exposed representations of the elements.
Someone told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.
AJAX is completely irrelevant to the issue.
The way that it was explained is that Ajax is a hodge podge conglomeration
of JavaScript, XML and some other things, and that these exposed
properties are exposed in an XML format.
Yes, you can stop taking web development advice from whoever it was who
said that.
Richard.
"Richard Cornford" <Ri*****@litotes.demon.co.ukwrote in message
news:11*********************@74g2000cwt.googlegrou ps.com...
Peter Olcott wrote:
>Richard Cornford wrote:
>>Peter Olcott wrote:
<snip>
>>>What I really need to know is exactly how difficult it is for another
program
What is 'another program'?
If we assume that there is a JavaScript program running in the web-browser,
OK.
>the other program is any program besides this program.
Narrow it down, why don't you?
My goal is to find out the difficulties in deriving a truly universal scripting
language. In other words a scripting language capable of controlling literally
any program of any kind what-so-ever that will run on modern operating systems
such as MS Windows. If I narrow down the question, then I get an answer that
does not help. My purpose of coming to this forum is to determine the
difficulties and challenges in deriving a scripting language capable of
controlling any JavaScript program, yet even this purpose is only a tiny subset
of my primary goal.
>
>In other words I need a way to determine the exact location and
current state of any graphical user interface controls that are
displayed in the web-browser, and this way must be able to provide
this information to a different program beside the one running
in the web-browser.
Where a browser (combined with the context ) makes the determination of
the location of elements possible the results of such calculations may
be sent to a web server (which qualifies as your 'other program') in
various ways.
Yes, how would it do this, and what do you mean by context?
>
>>>to determine the exact location
Javascript executing in browser environments can determine the exact
pixel position (screen/ within the window and on the HTML page) of
elements being displayed in an HTML document that it is scripting
whenever the browser eposes sufficient information for that
determination to be possible (which is often, but not universally, the
case).
and current state of any graphical user interface controls.
What do you consider the 'state' of a graphical user Interface
control?
Is the checkbox currently checked or unchecked
The W3C HTML DOM defined - HTMLInputElement - interface has a boolean -
checked - proprety, that represents a formalization of a traditional
feature of representations of input elements exposed to scripting.
I don't know what W3C stands for, I assum that DOM stands for document object
model.
>
>("Current state" is a generic
term of the art of computer science).
And yet when asked for clarification you are only actually interested
in one aspect of the element's state.
The most salient aspect of a graphical user control element's current state
would be its GUI control state. Its color could be construed as a part of the
state of the element, yet generally an inessential part of this state. Whether
or not a checkbox is checked, whether or not an edit box has text, and the value
of this text if present, all those things that directly pertain to this items
role as a GUI control element, also needed are its exact location, and the exact
location of its constituent parts, if any.
>
>>Brower hosts expose properties of controls/elements to scripting and
the values of those properties are normal candidates to be considered
the 'state' of the control/element.
Great exactly how do they expose this, an API call?
As properties of the exposed representations of the elements.
What is the API call to get to these? (or where could I find out the name of
this API call?)
>
>
Someone told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.
AJAX is completely irrelevant to the issue.
The way that it was explained is that Ajax is a hodge podge conglomeration
of JavaScript, XML and some other things, and that these exposed
properties are exposed in an XML format.
Yes, you can stop taking web development advice from whoever it was who
said that.
Richard.
Peter Olcott wrote:
My goal is to find out the difficulties in deriving a truly universal
scripting language. In other words a scripting language capable of
controlling literally any program of any kind what-so-ever that will
run on modern operating systems such as MS Windows.
I suspect that your goal is completely unrealistic, and has nothing to do
with Javascript. You might get clarity by first really understanding what
you want to accomplish and expressing that in a well-worded summary. The
exercise of doing so might make you realize why your questions appear to be
completely irrelevant.
--
Matt Kruse http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com http://www.AjaxToolbox.com
"Matt Kruse" <ne********@mattkruse.comwrote in message
news:eb********@news2.newsguy.com...
Peter Olcott wrote:
>My goal is to find out the difficulties in deriving a truly universal
scripting language. In other words a scripting language capable of
controlling literally any program of any kind what-so-ever that will
run on modern operating systems such as MS Windows.
I suspect that your goal is completely unrealistic, and has nothing to do with
Javascript. You might get clarity by first really understanding what you want
to accomplish and expressing that in a well-worded summary. The exercise of
doing so might make you realize why your questions appear to be completely
irrelevant.
I have already accomplished this goal with my patented technology: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/7046848
My purpose here is to see how difficult it would be for others to achieve this
same functional benefit.
>
--
Matt Kruse
http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com
http://www.AjaxToolbox.com
"Peter Olcott" <ol****@att.netwrites:
My goal is to find out the difficulties in deriving a truly
universal scripting language. In other words a scripting language
capable of controlling literally any program of any kind
what-so-ever that will run on modern operating systems such as MS
Windows.
It seems you are concentrating on the ability to recognize and
manipulate graphical user interfaces. If you have that ability in a
library, the language, scripting or not, around it isn't as important.
If I narrow down the question, then I get an answer that does not
help. My purpose of coming to this forum is to determine the
difficulties and challenges in deriving a scripting language capable
of controlling any JavaScript program, yet even this purpose is only
a tiny subset of my primary goal.
The problem with the question is that there really aren't any
"JavaScript programs". JavaScript is itself a scripting language with
no graphical interface or even I/O features. It only really comes to
life when it's combined with a running environment that provides these
features, be it a page in a web browser, a server-side page on a web
server or running inside the windows scripting host.
So you can't say anything consistent about "JavaScript programs".
I don't know what W3C stands for, I assum that DOM stands for
document object model.
W3C: World Wide Web Consortium, the people who specifies, among other
things, the HTML and DOM standards.
DOM: Correct.
[DOM element properties]
What is the API call to get to these? (or where could I find out the name of
this API call?)
<URL:http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/>
/L
--
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen - lr*@hotpop.com
DHTML Death Colors: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rasterTriangleDOM.html>
'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'
"Lasse Reichstein Nielsen" <lr*@hotpop.comwrote in message
news:64**********@hotpop.com...
"Peter Olcott" <ol****@att.netwrites:
>My goal is to find out the difficulties in deriving a truly
universal scripting language. In other words a scripting language
capable of controlling literally any program of any kind
what-so-ever that will run on modern operating systems such as MS
Windows.
It seems you are concentrating on the ability to recognize and
manipulate graphical user interfaces. If you have that ability in a
library, the language, scripting or not, around it isn't as important.
According to members of the Java newsgroup Java Swing's light weight controls
are one example on GUI controls that are fundamentally different than native
controls. I want to see how many examples of this sort of thing I can find
across everything that runs on the Win32 platform. This is the sort of thing
that makes deriving the sort of library that you suggested difficult.
>If I narrow down the question, then I get an answer that does not
help. My purpose of coming to this forum is to determine the
difficulties and challenges in deriving a scripting language capable
of controlling any JavaScript program, yet even this purpose is only
a tiny subset of my primary goal.
The problem with the question is that there really aren't any
"JavaScript programs". JavaScript is itself a scripting language with
no graphical interface or even I/O features. It only really comes to
life when it's combined with a running environment that provides these
features, be it a page in a web browser, a server-side page on a web
server or running inside the windows scripting host.
So you can't say anything consistent about "JavaScript programs".
>I don't know what W3C stands for, I assum that DOM stands for
document object model.
W3C: World Wide Web Consortium, the people who specifies, among other
things, the HTML and DOM standards.
DOM: Correct.
[DOM element properties]
>What is the API call to get to these? (or where could I find out the name of
this API call?)
<URL:http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/>
/L
--
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen - lr*@hotpop.com
DHTML Death Colors: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rasterTriangleDOM.html>
'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'
Peter Olcott wrote:
"Matt Kruse" <ne********@mattkruse.comwrote in message
news:eb*********@news2.newsguy.com...
>Peter Olcott wrote:
>>My original question
can not be rephrased. What I really need to know is exactly how
difficult it is for another program to determine the exact location
and current state of any graphical user interface controls. Someone
told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.
The text above makes it obvious that you completely lack a basic
level of understanding required to even ask an intelligent question
on the matter.
<snipped/>
I have almost no understanding of JavaScript.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/7046848
This technology enables a truly universal GUI scripting language to
be created. I am attempting to estimate how difficult it would be to
approximate the functional benefits of my technology using
alternative means.
Peter...
As far as I understand it, you have written some kind of scripting
language coupled with a "screen scraping method" that can analyze
the visible "controls" of any other application ,from MS-DOS to native
windows applications, and expose those to your scripting language.
And now you're asking if this is possible to achieve in javascript
(And Java, in another NG)...?
JavaScript is not a stand-alone programming language. It always
runs in a "Host".
When it runs in the Windows Scripting Host, it can access
and manipulate the objects and properties exposed to it by the WSH.
There is no objects exposed by the WSH that enables javascript
to analyze the visual state other applications external to the WSH.
When running in a webbrowser, it can access the objects and properties
exposed to it by the webbrowser.
There is a *huge* object model exposed to JS by the webbrowser that
let JS analyze an manipulate the visual state of the document loaded in
the webbrowser hosting it. But not any applications external to the
browser.
So rest assured! JS will/can *never* be used to develop something
that can compete with what your patent claims to do.
--
Dag.
Dag Sunde wrote:
<snip>
When it runs in the Windows Scripting Host, it can access
and manipulate the objects and properties exposed to it by
the WSH. There is no objects exposed by the WSH that
enables javascript to analyze the visual state other
applications external to the WSH.
WSH allows Windows programs to be executed by scripts, so RUNDLL.exe,
and so any method from any DLL (at least in theory), with the
(significant) practical limitation that JScript does not have the data
types to provide appropriate arguments to many DLL calls. As a result
there is a chance that WSH does expose enough to allow JScirpt tot
analyze the visual state of other applications (particularly if
provided with a suitable custom DLL).
Richard.
Peter Olcott wrote:
>
The United States represents about half of the world software market,
so that patent has good coverage, in half the world.
Interestingly, I cannot find a survey of global software market value.
However, a number of websites do record global software sales numbers
but not value. From that, it appears that Europe is approximately 25% of
the software sales, China and the Far East about 45%, Japan around 12%
and the USA around 18%. These do fit in well with population
demographics so I tend to think they may be accurate, although one of
the websites did point out that it is thought up to 80% of the China and
Far East software may be pirated.
>
The rest of the world must still legally respect the copyright.
All signatories of the Berne Convention must respect a Berne Convention
copyright, of course, but that is nothing whatever to do with a patent.
As I did point out, a patent is to protect the *invention* but a
copyright is to protect the *expression* (or implementation) of a novel
idea in a specific form.
>
My original question can not be rephrased. What I really need to know is
exactly how difficult it is for another program to determine the
exact location and current state of any graphical user interface
controls. Someone told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.
What you are asking makes several assumptions about the computer system
on which the software is running. Without knowing those assumptions, it
is impossible to answer.
If you do not make *any* assumptions then the answer is simple - you
can't do it (for instance, my own BBC Micro / adapted PDP-8 system -
self-built, self-designed and self-installed with my own software will
simply not report to other programmes).
"The Magpie" <us****@mpreston.demon.co.ukwrote in message
news:eb*******************@news.demon.co.uk...
Peter Olcott wrote:
>>
The United States represents about half of the world software market,
so that patent has good coverage, in half the world.
Interestingly, I cannot find a survey of global software market value.
However, a number of websites do record global software sales numbers
but not value. From that, it appears that Europe is approximately 25% of
the software sales, China and the Far East about 45%, Japan around 12%
and the USA around 18%. These do fit in well with population
demographics so I tend to think they may be accurate, although one of
the websites did point out that it is thought up to 80% of the China and
Far East software may be pirated.
I derived my estimates from worldwide computer sales figures. The United States
have a much higher per capita computer usage than any other nation.
>>
The rest of the world must still legally respect the copyright.
All signatories of the Berne Convention must respect a Berne Convention
copyright, of course, but that is nothing whatever to do with a patent.
As I did point out, a patent is to protect the *invention* but a
copyright is to protect the *expression* (or implementation) of a novel
idea in a specific form.
It looks like the best way to protect my rights world wide is penetration
pricing, pricing too low for competition to take hold.
>>
My original question can not be rephrased. What I really need to know is
exactly how difficult it is for another program to determine the
exact location and current state of any graphical user interface
controls. Someone told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.
What you are asking makes several assumptions about the computer system
on which the software is running. Without knowing those assumptions, it
is impossible to answer.
When anyone asks the question "Is X possible?" this logically entails the
universal set of every possible assumption. How about this, under any possible
assumption to what extent is it possible to make a universal scripting language
that can control every program that will run under modern operating system
versions?
>
If you do not make *any* assumptions then the answer is simple - you
can't do it (for instance, my own BBC Micro / adapted PDP-8 system -
self-built, self-designed and self-installed with my own software will
simply not report to other programmes).
Dag Sunde wrote:
JavaScript is not a stand-alone programming language. It always
runs in a "Host".
When it runs in the Windows Scripting Host, it can access
and manipulate the objects and properties exposed to it by the WSH.
There is no objects exposed by the WSH that enables javascript
to analyze the visual state other applications external to the WSH.
Many Windows applications like Internet Explorer or Word or Excel can be
automated by script run with WSH. The Windows Shell itself can be
automated e.g. the following script grabs all open Internet Explorer
browser windows and outputs details about the document title and the
number of forms (document.forms.length):
var shell = new ActiveXObject('Shell.Application');
var windows = shell.Windows();
for (var i = 0, l = windows.Count; i < l; i++) {
try {
var document = windows(i).document;
WScript.Echo("document.title: \"" + document.title +
"\"; forms.length: " + document.forms.length);
}
catch (e) {}
}
Thus J(ava)Script (or VBScript) used with WSH can get details about the
visual state of Windows application that expose automation interfaces.
--
Martin Honnen http://JavaScript.FAQTs.com/
Peter Olcott wrote:
How about this, under
any possible assumption to what extent is it possible to make a
universal scripting language that can control every program that will
run under modern operating system versions?
Completely and totally impossible. IMO.
You would either need the API to every application available (impossible) or
you would need to write software that could act as a user and intelligently
locate controls and content within any application. This would require that
your application be able to visually recognize a GUI like a human does,
since not all GUI's will look the same or even use standard OS components.
Further, even if an app uses standard OS components, those can be styled
differently depending on users's skins or OS settings.
Your patent application is long, and I didn't read a single sentence of it.
But if what you describe above is your goal, then
a) It is not achievable (IMO)
b) It certainly has nothing to do with javascript
You may wish to pursue this in some microsoft newsgroups or general
application development groups.
--
Matt Kruse http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com http://www.AjaxToolbox.com
"Martin Honnen" <ma*******@yahoo.dewrote in message
news:44***********************@newsspool2.arcor-online.net...
>
Dag Sunde wrote:
>JavaScript is not a stand-alone programming language. It always
runs in a "Host".
When it runs in the Windows Scripting Host, it can access
and manipulate the objects and properties exposed to it by the WSH.
There is no objects exposed by the WSH that enables javascript
to analyze the visual state other applications external to the WSH.
Many Windows applications like Internet Explorer or Word or Excel can be
automated by script run with WSH. The Windows Shell itself can be automated
e.g. the following script grabs all open Internet Explorer browser windows and
outputs details about the document title and the number of forms
(document.forms.length):
var shell = new ActiveXObject('Shell.Application');
var windows = shell.Windows();
for (var i = 0, l = windows.Count; i < l; i++) {
try {
var document = windows(i).document;
WScript.Echo("document.title: \"" + document.title +
"\"; forms.length: " + document.forms.length);
}
catch (e) {}
}
Thus J(ava)Script (or VBScript) used with WSH can get details about the visual
state of Windows application that expose automation interfaces.
The last four words forming the most significant limitations.
>
--
Martin Honnen
http://JavaScript.FAQTs.com/
Ask Peter Olcott, he'll give you an entirely different answer, as he
claims he's made one.
Matt Kruse wrote:
Peter Olcott wrote:
How about this, under
any possible assumption to what extent is it possible to make a
universal scripting language that can control every program that will
run under modern operating system versions?
Completely and totally impossible. IMO.
You would either need the API to every application available (impossible) or
you would need to write software that could act as a user and intelligently
locate controls and content within any application. This would require that
your application be able to visually recognize a GUI like a human does,
since not all GUI's will look the same or even use standard OS components.
Further, even if an app uses standard OS components, those can be styled
differently depending on users's skins or OS settings.
Your patent application is long, and I didn't read a single sentence of it.
But if what you describe above is your goal, then
a) It is not achievable (IMO)
b) It certainly has nothing to do with javascript
You may wish to pursue this in some microsoft newsgroups or general
application development groups.
--
Matt Kruse
http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com
http://www.AjaxToolbox.com
"Matt Kruse" <ne********@mattkruse.comwrote in message
news:eb*********@news2.newsguy.com...
Peter Olcott wrote:
>How about this, under
any possible assumption to what extent is it possible to make a
universal scripting language that can control every program that will
run under modern operating system versions?
Completely and totally impossible. IMO.
You would either need the API to every application available (impossible) or
you would need to write software that could act as a user and intelligently
locate controls and content within any application. This would require that
your application be able to visually recognize a GUI like a human does, since
not all GUI's will look the same or even use standard OS components. Further,
even if an app uses standard OS components, those can be styled differently
depending on users's skins or OS settings.
Yet if a scripting language could see anything one the screen by matching the
pixel patterns, then the script programmer could easily adjust for all of these
different looks on a per script basis. As for the different user settings of the
GUI, the script host could adjust for these, and the script programmer would
simply refer to them by their conventional names, menu text, icon text, et
cetera.
Your patent application is long, and I didn't read a single sentence of it.
But if what you describe above is your goal, then
a) It is not achievable (IMO)
b) It certainly has nothing to do with javascript
You may wish to pursue this in some microsoft newsgroups or general
application development groups.
I am doing that concurrently.
>
--
Matt Kruse
http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com
http://www.AjaxToolbox.com
Martin Honnen wrote:
Dag Sunde wrote:
>JavaScript is not a stand-alone programming language. It always
runs in a "Host".
When it runs in the Windows Scripting Host, it can access
and manipulate the objects and properties exposed to it by the WSH.
There is no objects exposed by the WSH that enables javascript
to analyze the visual state other applications external to the WSH.
Many Windows applications like Internet Explorer or Word or Excel can
be automated by script run with WSH. The Windows Shell itself can be
automated e.g. the following script grabs all open Internet Explorer
browser windows and outputs details about the document title and the
number of forms (document.forms.length):
var shell = new ActiveXObject('Shell.Application');
var windows = shell.Windows();
for (var i = 0, l = windows.Count; i < l; i++) {
try {
var document = windows(i).document;
WScript.Echo("document.title: \"" + document.title +
"\"; forms.length: " + document.forms.length);
}
catch (e) {}
}
Thus J(ava)Script (or VBScript) used with WSH can get details about
the visual state of Windows application that expose automation
interfaces.
You can get the information the application choose to expose thru its
automation interface, nothing more.
The point of my previous post was to illustrate that while JS can,
in some cases give you limited information about some applications
it can *not* be used to take total control over all types of apps
possibly running on a pc.
(And that's what the OP claims his system can do).
The question here is: "Can Javascript be used to analyze the current
state of every visual control the user can interact with, in every
application, regardless og automation interface, and interact with it?
The answer is no!
--
Dag.
"Dag Sunde" <me@dagsunde.comwrote in message
news:44********@news.wineasy.se...
Martin Honnen wrote:
>Dag Sunde wrote:
>>JavaScript is not a stand-alone programming language. It always
runs in a "Host".
When it runs in the Windows Scripting Host, it can access
and manipulate the objects and properties exposed to it by the WSH.
There is no objects exposed by the WSH that enables javascript
to analyze the visual state other applications external to the WSH.
Many Windows applications like Internet Explorer or Word or Excel can
be automated by script run with WSH. The Windows Shell itself can be
automated e.g. the following script grabs all open Internet Explorer
browser windows and outputs details about the document title and the
number of forms (document.forms.length):
var shell = new ActiveXObject('Shell.Application');
var windows = shell.Windows();
for (var i = 0, l = windows.Count; i < l; i++) {
try {
var document = windows(i).document;
WScript.Echo("document.title: \"" + document.title +
"\"; forms.length: " + document.forms.length);
}
catch (e) {}
}
Thus J(ava)Script (or VBScript) used with WSH can get details about
the visual state of Windows application that expose automation
interfaces.
You can get the information the application choose to expose thru its
automation interface, nothing more.
The point of my previous post was to illustrate that while JS can,
in some cases give you limited information about some applications
it can *not* be used to take total control over all types of apps
possibly running on a pc.
(And that's what the OP claims his system can do).
The question here is: "Can Javascript be used to analyze the current
state of every visual control the user can interact with, in every
application, regardless og automation interface, and interact with it?
The answer is no!
--
Dag.
I came here for the purpose of the question turned around. Can any possible
program take complete control of every possible JavaScript application? That was
my reason for being here.
Peter Olcott said the following on 8/16/2006 4:19 PM:
"Matt Kruse" <ne********@mattkruse.comwrote in message
news:eb*********@news2.newsguy.com...
>Peter Olcott wrote:
>>How about this, under
any possible assumption to what extent is it possible to make a
universal scripting language that can control every program that will
run under modern operating system versions?
Completely and totally impossible. IMO.
You would either need the API to every application available (impossible) or
you would need to write software that could act as a user and intelligently
locate controls and content within any application. This would require that
your application be able to visually recognize a GUI like a human does, since
not all GUI's will look the same or even use standard OS components. Further,
even if an app uses standard OS components, those can be styled differently
depending on users's skins or OS settings.
Yet if a scripting language could see anything one the screen by matching the
pixel patterns, then the script programmer could easily adjust for all of these
different looks on a per script basis.
Matching pixel patterns won't work. You can't tell the difference
between a screen shot of an input button and an input button based on
pixel patterns.
--
Randy
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq & newsgroup weekly
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/
In message <eb********@news2.newsguy.com>, Matt Kruse
<ne********@mattkruse.comwrites
>Peter Olcott wrote:
>My goal is to find out the difficulties in deriving a truly universal
scripting language. In other words a scripting language capable of
controlling literally any program of any kind what-so-ever that will
run on modern operating systems such as MS Windows.
You said earlier on you have patented this idea. What is the patent
number. Then perhaps we can work out what you want to do from examining
the patent?
Since you have it patented, it is in your interests to disclose the
patent number and any relevant information.
Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
In message <hwmEg.317$Tl4.78@dukeread06>, Peter Olcott <ol****@att.net>
writes
>http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...=HITOFF&d=PALL
&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l= 50&s1=7046848.PN.&OS=PN
/7046848&RS=PN/7046848
This technology enables a truly universal GUI scripting language to be
created.
But because you have patented it, no one will use it. Take a good hard
look at all the languages in use today. They were created and provided
to use, no charge. Some implementations of some languages charge, but
the implementation creators are not charged by the creators of the
language.
Consider the Fractal Image Format - a lossy, highly compressed image
format created in the early 1990s. Royalties required for use. Where is
it now? Consigned to the "won't pay for that" dustbin because suitable
other alternatives existed for free (JPEG, PNG...).
If you think people are going to pay you to implement your universal
scripting language I am afraid you are in for a serious reality check.
Patent something that people need. Like a cheap, pollution free means of
energy creation.
Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
In message <x5LEg.849$Tl4.770@dukeread06>, Peter Olcott <ol****@att.net>
writes
>Yet if a scripting language could see anything one the screen by matching the
pixel patterns, then the script programmer could easily adjust for all
of these
different looks on a per script basis. As for the different user
settings of the
GUI, the script host could adjust for these, and the script programmer would
simply refer to them by their conventional names, menu text, icon text, et
cetera.
Peter,
Screen Readers and other assistive technology for vision impaired and
blind computer users have been doing this for years. Also, many
automated user-interaction test software suites (such as WinRunner), on
various computer operating systems have also been trying to do this
resolution-independent method.
None of them, I repeat, none of them have succeeded. They've been at it
longer than you and I guess know more about the problems associated with
these particular topics than you do. They all have solutions that work
some of the time, or most of the time, at a level acceptable by their
customer base. None of them are 100% accurate AND are resolution and GUI
independent.
You are wasting your time with this patent.
Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
In message <4k************@individual.net>, Gernot Frisch
<Me@Privacy.netwrites
>It depends on the browser and version you use. Some place a real Win32
window with button class on the page, others just place an image that
"looks" like the win32 button. Others just place a grey rectable with
text as a button.
Agreed. During 1996-1998 I wrote a web browser / multimedia authoring
suite. I chose to use a Windows button. Firefox renders its own buttons
- they are not Windows buttons. No idea what IE, Opera or Safari do.
Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
In message <ZMLEg.868$Tl4.385@dukeread06>, Peter Olcott <ol****@att.net>
writes
>I came here for the purpose of the question turned around. Can any possible
program take complete control of every possible JavaScript application?
That was
my reason for being here.
Define control. I can write you an application that can monitor a
JavaScript application running inside Firefox or Flock on Windows, but
not on Linux or MacOS and not in Safari, Internet Explorer, Opera, etc.
I know I can do the above, because I was part of a team that has done
the above. See softwareverify.com.
Even then, Define "Control". I can pause it, force garbage collections,
even gather various statistics and some of the time see variable values.
Make it do something else? No.
Find out what is on the screen? No.
Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
"Stephen Kellett" <sn***@objmedia.demon.co.ukwrote in message
news:5c**************@objmedia.demon.co.uk...
In message <eb********@news2.newsguy.com>, Matt Kruse
<ne********@mattkruse.comwrites
>>Peter Olcott wrote:
>>My goal is to find out the difficulties in deriving a truly universal
scripting language. In other words a scripting language capable of
controlling literally any program of any kind what-so-ever that will
run on modern operating systems such as MS Windows.
You said earlier on you have patented this idea. What is the patent number.
Then perhaps we can work out what you want to do from examining the patent?
Here is a link to the patent itself. http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/7046848
Since you have it patented, it is in your interests to disclose the patent
number and any relevant information.
Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
"Randy Webb" <Hi************@aol.comwrote in message
news:gb******************************@comcast.com. ..
Peter Olcott said the following on 8/16/2006 4:19 PM:
>"Matt Kruse" <ne********@mattkruse.comwrote in message
news:eb*********@news2.newsguy.com...
>>Peter Olcott wrote:
How about this, under
any possible assumption to what extent is it possible to make a
universal scripting language that can control every program that will
run under modern operating system versions?
Completely and totally impossible. IMO.
You would either need the API to every application available (impossible) or
you would need to write software that could act as a user and intelligently
locate controls and content within any application. This would require that
your application be able to visually recognize a GUI like a human does,
since not all GUI's will look the same or even use standard OS components.
Further, even if an app uses standard OS components, those can be styled
differently depending on users's skins or OS settings.
Yet if a scripting language could see anything one the screen by matching the
pixel patterns, then the script programmer could easily adjust for all of
these different looks on a per script basis.
Matching pixel patterns won't work. You can't tell the difference between a
screen shot of an input button and an input button based on pixel patterns.
But, when is this ever a problem is actual GUI scripting?
--
Randy
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq & newsgroup weekly
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/
"Stephen Kellett" <sn***@objmedia.demon.co.ukwrote in message
news:h8**************@objmedia.demon.co.uk...
In message <hwmEg.317$Tl4.78@dukeread06>, Peter Olcott <ol****@att.netwrites
>>http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...=HITOFF&d=PALL
&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l =50&s1=7046848.PN.&OS=PN
/7046848&RS=PN/7046848
This technology enables a truly universal GUI scripting language to be
created.
But because you have patented it, no one will use it. Take a good hard look at
all the languages in use today. They were created and provided to use, no
charge. Some implementations of some languages charge, but the implementation
creators are not charged by the creators of the language.
Consider the Fractal Image Format - a lossy, highly compressed image format
created in the early 1990s. Royalties required for use. Where is it now?
Consigned to the "won't pay for that" dustbin because suitable other
alternatives existed for free (JPEG, PNG...).
If you think people are going to pay you to implement your universal scripting
language I am afraid you are in for a serious reality check.
(1) There are three different products that can be implemented with this
technology.
A universal scripting language and a generic software component are two.
(2) I am going for market penetration pricing so the price of the software will
be really affordable.
(3) I am implementing the original Borland marketing model, top quality, and
very low prices.
Patent something that people need. Like a cheap, pollution free means of
energy creation.
Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
"Stephen Kellett" <sn***@objmedia.demon.co.ukwrote in message
news:DN**************@objmedia.demon.co.uk...
In message <x5LEg.849$Tl4.770@dukeread06>, Peter Olcott <ol****@att.net>
writes
>>Yet if a scripting language could see anything one the screen by matching the
pixel patterns, then the script programmer could easily adjust for all of
these
different looks on a per script basis. As for the different user settings of
the
GUI, the script host could adjust for these, and the script programmer would
simply refer to them by their conventional names, menu text, icon text, et
cetera.
Peter,
Screen Readers and other assistive technology for vision impaired and blind
computer users have been doing this for years. Also, many automated
user-interaction test software suites (such as WinRunner), on various computer
operating systems have also been trying to do this resolution-independent
method.
None of them, I repeat, none of them have succeeded. They've been at it longer
than you and I guess know more about the problems associated with these
particular topics than you do. They all have solutions that work some of the
time, or most of the time, at a level acceptable by their customer base. None
of them are 100% accurate AND are resolution and GUI independent.
My technology is operational and has 100% accuracy at real-time speeds.
>
You are wasting your time with this patent.
Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
"Stephen Kellett" <sn***@objmedia.demon.co.ukwrote in message
news:6P**************@objmedia.demon.co.uk...
In message <ZMLEg.868$Tl4.385@dukeread06>, Peter Olcott <ol****@att.net>
writes
>>I came here for the purpose of the question turned around. Can any possible
program take complete control of every possible JavaScript application? That
was
my reason for being here.
Define control.
Control is meant to mean the ability to simulate the effects of a human user.
I can write you an application that can monitor a JavaScript application
running inside Firefox or Flock on Windows, but not on Linux or MacOS and not
in Safari, Internet Explorer, Opera, etc.
I know I can do the above, because I was part of a team that has done the
above. See softwareverify.com.
Even then, Define "Control". I can pause it, force garbage collections, even
gather various statistics and some of the time see variable values.
Make it do something else? No.
Find out what is on the screen? No.
Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
In message <l_MEg.896$Tl4.91@dukeread06>, Peter Olcott <ol****@att.net>
writes
>(1) There are three different products that can be implemented with this
technology.
A universal scripting language and a generic software component are two.
(2) I am going for market penetration pricing so the price of the
software will
be really affordable.
(3) I am implementing the original Borland marketing model, top quality, and
very low prices.
Sounds just like the fractal image format. That was a good product, with
good results (the images looked OK, scaled well and compressed
exceedingly well). The royalty was low. Eventually the royalty was done
away with, with a fee for the software development kit instead (or
something like that). Fractal Image Format (*.fif) is an image format
that most people don't even know existed.
For universal scripting language I can think of 3 existing languages
that run standalone or embedded in another product. All three are
dynamic languages, very easy to use and very similar (although their
various proponents swear blind their language is best).
They are Python, Ruby and Lua. All three have the ultimate penetration
pricing fee - zero cost to get the source code, a prebuilt runtime and
all 3 have reasonably large, passionate, helpful user communities.
Generic software component? What is that? Its a pretty meaningless
phrase that means its a generic software component. See recursion.
Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
In message <P0NEg.897$Tl4.797@dukeread06>, Peter Olcott <ol****@att.net>
writes
>My technology is operational and has 100% accuracy at real-time speeds.
And is it resolution independent? I doubt you very much. If you were
serious you wouldn't be asking these questions about JavaScript as you'd
know already if you could identify the buttons/whatever on screen.
Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
In message <n5NEg.898$Tl4.67@dukeread06>, Peter Olcott <ol****@att.net>
writes
>Define control.
Control is meant to mean the ability to simulate the effects of a human user.
In which case the answer is No.
Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
In message <9WMEg.895$Tl4.547@dukeread06>, Peter Olcott <ol****@att.net>
writes
>Matching pixel patterns won't work. You can't tell the difference
between a
>screen shot of an input button and an input button based on pixel
patterns.
>>
But, when is this ever a problem is actual GUI scripting?
When you are trying to control the GUI components created by the GUI
scripting language of choice, as you have been clearly trying to do, as
evidenced by your questioning elsewhere in this thread. You need to be
able to locate these controls. This is particularly a problem when such
controls are not native controls but created by the host (Firefox just
draws them as it sees fit) or by a host runtime (the Java runtime just
draws them as it sees fit, and Swing under Java does it a different
way), etc.
If you can't locate them, you can't do what you are proposing. Hence my
comments in other replies.
Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
Peter Olcott wrote:
"Stephen Kellett" <sn***@objmedia.demon.co.ukwrote in message
news:6P**************@objmedia.demon.co.uk...
>>In message <ZMLEg.868$Tl4.385@dukeread06>, Peter Olcott <ol****@att.net>
writes
>>>I came here for the purpose of the question turned around. Can any possible
program take complete control of every possible JavaScript application? That
was
my reason for being here.
Define control.
Control is meant to mean the ability to simulate the effects of a human user.
Sounds like you are describing rational Robot, a software testing tool.
--
Ian Collins.
"Stephen Kellett" <sn***@objmedia.demon.co.ukwrote in message
news:us**************@objmedia.demon.co.uk...
In message <l_MEg.896$Tl4.91@dukeread06>, Peter Olcott <ol****@att.netwrites
>>(1) There are three different products that can be implemented with this
technology.
A universal scripting language and a generic software component are two.
(2) I am going for market penetration pricing so the price of the software
will
be really affordable.
(3) I am implementing the original Borland marketing model, top quality, and
very low prices.
Sounds just like the fractal image format. That was a good product, with good
results (the images looked OK, scaled well and compressed exceedingly well).
The royalty was low. Eventually the royalty was done away with, with a fee for
the software development kit instead (or something like that). Fractal Image
Format (*.fif) is an image format that most people don't even know existed.
For universal scripting language I can think of 3 existing languages that run
standalone or embedded in another product. All three are dynamic languages,
very easy to use and very similar (although their various proponents swear
blind their language is best).
They are Python, Ruby and Lua. All three have the ultimate penetration pricing
fee - zero cost to get the source code, a prebuilt runtime and all 3 have
reasonably large, passionate, helpful user communities.
Generic software component? What is that? Its a pretty meaningless phrase that
means its a generic software component. See recursion.
I stated that within the context of the abstract of my patent.
>
Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
"Stephen Kellett" <sn***@objmedia.demon.co.ukwrote in message
news:pc**************@objmedia.demon.co.uk...
In message <P0NEg.897$Tl4.797@dukeread06>, Peter Olcott <ol****@att.net>
writes
>>My technology is operational and has 100% accuracy at real-time speeds.
And is it resolution independent? I doubt you very much. If you were serious
you wouldn't be asking these questions about JavaScript as you'd know already
if you could identify the buttons/whatever on screen.
Here is what I know. I know that I can match thousands of pixel patterns from
millions of alternatives in a fraction of a second for the entire screen all at
once. Although GUI controls may vary quite a bit across differing technologies
and applications they rarely vary for the same program on the same platform.
Because of this my technology can be easily programmed to "see" most any of
these sort of things.
>
Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
Peter Olcott said the following on 8/16/2006 8:18 PM:
"Stephen Kellett" <sn***@objmedia.demon.co.ukwrote in message
news:pc**************@objmedia.demon.co.uk...
>In message <P0NEg.897$Tl4.797@dukeread06>, Peter Olcott <ol****@att.net>
writes
>>My technology is operational and has 100% accuracy at real-time speeds.
And is it resolution independent? I doubt you very much. If you were serious
you wouldn't be asking these questions about JavaScript as you'd know already
if you could identify the buttons/whatever on screen.
Here is what I know. I know that I can match thousands of pixel patterns from
millions of alternatives in a fraction of a second for the entire screen all at
once. Although GUI controls may vary quite a bit across differing technologies
and applications they rarely vary for the same program on the same platform.
Because of this my technology can be easily programmed to "see" most any of
these sort of things.
And my point, in my other reply, is that I don't believe that. Not for
one second, and for the reason I stated. It is not enough to "see"
something by visual recognition. Especially not by comparing pixels.
Create a test page and put a button on it:
<button>This is my button</button>
Then, take a screenshot of that button and place it on the page:
<img src="theButton.jpg">
And then please, oh please, tell me how you propose that you can tell
the difference between those two simply by comparing pixels. The answer
is simple - you can't.
Nor can your "program" know what clicking it is going to do so you can't
"control" it without clicking it first and by then it may be too late to
try to "control" it.
If your program is combining the code of the page (which it can't always
do) and the visual representation, then it still won't be enough (and
yes, I can prove that also).
--
Randy
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq & newsgroup weekly
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