This seems too simple by I can't find the answer.
Must <a name="foo"> be closed with </a> ?
Must it have content?
W3C says the content cannot be block so what if :
<a name="foo">
<h2>Foo Is Good</h2> ( a likely location )
Where does the closer </a> go?
<a name="foo"> </a> is ok but uses a line
<h2>Foo Is Good</h2>
Mason C 30  2778 
Previously in comp.infosystems. www.authoring.html, "Mason A. Clark"
<ma*************@ix.netcom.com> said: Must <a name="foo"> be closed with </a> ?
Yes, according to the DTD.
Must it have content?
Yes, as above.
<a name="foo">
<h2>Foo Is Good</h2> ( a likely location )
How about :
<h2 id="foo">Foo Is Good</h2>
--
Mark Parnell http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
On 7-7-2005 9:07, Mason A. Clark wrote: This seems too simple by I can't find the answer.
Must <a name="foo"> be closed with </a> ?
For HTML 4.01: Yes, "Start tag: required, End tag: required", see
<http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html#edef-A> Must it have content?
No, however "User agents should be able to find anchors created by empty
A elements, but some fail to do so."
W3C says the content cannot be block so what if :
<a name="foo">
</a> <h2>Foo Is Good</h2> ( a likely location )
Where does the closer </a> go?
<a name="foo"> </a> is ok but uses a line
<h2>Foo Is Good</h2>
How about
<h2><a name="foo">Foo Is Good</a></h2> Mason C
--
Regards,
Roland de Ruiter
` ___ ___
`/__/ w_/ /__/
/ \ /_/ / \
On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 09:25:03 +0200, Roland <ro****@phony.biz> wrote: On 7-7-2005 9:07, Mason A. Clark wrote: This seems too simple by I can't find the answer.
Must <a name="foo"> be closed with </a> ?
For HTML 4.01: Yes, "Start tag: required, End tag: required", see
<http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html#edef-A> Must it have content?
No, however "User agents should be able to find anchors created by empty
A elements, but some fail to do so."
That's exactly what got me into this: - failure to find empty <a...></a>
<H2 id="fooname" .. has been suggested.
But the W3C site says:
"However, browser support for ID link destinations is very poor, so A NAME will
be needed for quite awhile. "
At the moment I'm stuck with <a name="foo"> </a> and a line
used for the space.
Mason C
W3C says the content cannot be block so what if :
<a name="foo">
</a> <h2>Foo Is Good</h2> ( a likely location )
Where does the closer </a> go?
<a name="foo"> </a> is ok but uses a line
<h2>Foo Is Good</h2>
How about
<h2><a name="foo">Foo Is Good</a></h2> Mason C
On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:17:47 +1000, Mark Parnell
<we*******@clarkecomputers.com.au> wrote: Previously in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, "Mason A. Clark"
<ma*************@ix.netcom.com> said:
Must <a name="foo"> be closed with </a> ?
Yes, according to the DTD.
Must it have content?
Yes, as above.
<a name="foo">
<h2>Foo Is Good</h2> ( a likely location )
How about:
<h2 id="foo">Foo Is Good</h2>
see my comment in another post: W3C warns against this
Mason A. Clark wrote: On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 09:25:03 +0200, Roland <ro****@phony.biz> wrote:
On 7-7-2005 9:07, Mason A. Clark wrote: This seems too simple by I can't find the answer.
Must <a name="foo"> be closed with </a> ?
For HTML 4.01: Yes, "Start tag: required, End tag: required", see
<http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html#edef-A> Must it have content?
No, however "User agents should be able to find anchors created by empty
A elements, but some fail to do so."
That's exactly what got me into this: - failure to find empty <a...></a>
<H2 id="fooname" .. has been suggested.
But the W3C site says:
"However, browser support for ID link destinations is very poor, so A NAME will
be needed for quite awhile. "
At the moment I'm stuck with <a name="foo"> </a> and a line
used for the space.
Can't say I've found a user agent yet that fails to find <a id="foo"
name="foo"></a>. Anyone know which one would fail that?
--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -
Now playing: Squeeze - Can of Worms
On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Mason A. Clark wrote: This seems too simple by I can't find the answer.
Use a formal validator to verify the answers to most of your
questions.
Must <a name="foo"> be closed with </a> ?
yes.
Must it have content?
In theory "not necessarily", but some older browsers do require it or
they don't work. Whether you can be bothered to be compatible with
such older browsers is probably your choice now - some authors feel
that using the id= attribute on the appropriate element (in your case
the "h2") is now adequate and the use of "a name=" is a superfluous
compatibility feature, we can't tell you what your decision should be
on that, but let's assume that you still want to...
W3C says the content cannot be block
right, and so will a formal validator
so what if :
<a name="foo">
<h2>Foo Is Good</h2> ( a likely location )
Put <a name="foo" id="foo">...</a> inside the block element if you
want to cover all bases. One possibility would be:
<h2><a name="foo" id="foo">Foo Is Good</a></h2>
<a name="foo"> </a> is ok but uses a line
No need to invent fake content!
Watch your CSS styles - if you've specified a style for /all/ "a"
elements, then it's going to get applied to this "a" element too,
which might not be what you want. Use a:link etc. to make the styles
more selective.
hope this helps.
Mason A. Clark wrote: "However, browser support for ID link destinations is very poor, so A NAME
will be needed for quite awhile. "
When was that document written? The last browser I know which didn't support
id in that way was Netscape 4.x.
--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
Mason A. Clark wrote: On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 09:25:03 +0200, Roland <ro****@phony.biz> wrote:
On 7-7-2005 9:07, Mason A. Clark wrote:
[snip] At the moment I'm stuck with <a name="foo"> </a> and a line
used for the space.
Mason C
You must have missed Roland's suggestion below:
[snip]How about
<h2><a name="foo">Foo Is Good</a></h2>
On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:26:53 +1000, Mark Parnell
<we*******@clarkecomputers.com.au> wrote: Previously in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Mark Parnell
<we*******@clarkecomputers.com.au> said: Previously in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, "Mason A. Clark"
<ma*************@ix.netcom.com> said:
Must it have content?
Yes, as above.
My bad. No, it doesn't have to have content.
But content is necessary for Opera to find it.
In Opera <a name="foo"></a> does not work.
In IE6 <a href="top"> goes to the top of the page even if there
is no <a name="top"> of any kind.
IE6 recognizes "top" . Other <a href="goo"> do NOT go to the top.
Is it just me? Or am I the only one testing?
Mason C
Mason A. Clark <ma*************@ix.netcom.com> wrote: Must it have content?
Yes, as above.
My bad. No, it doesn't have to have content.
But content is necessary for Opera to find it.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/spartanicus/empty_link.htm
Works in Opera 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8.
--
Spartanicus
Mason A. Clark wrote: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:26:53 +1000, Mark Parnell
<we*******@clarkecomputers.com.au> wrote:
Previously in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Mark Parnell
<we*******@clarkecomputers.com.au> said: Previously in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, "Mason A. Clark"
<ma*************@ix.netcom.com> said:
Must it have content?
Yes, as above.
My bad. No, it doesn't have to have content.
But content is necessary for Opera to find it.
In Opera <a name="foo"></a> does not work.
Opera responds to id="foo".
<a name="foo" id="foo"></a> works for all browsers that I've ever
tried.
--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -
On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:30:50 +0200, Els <el*********@tiscali.nl> wrote: Mason A. Clark wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:26:53 +1000, Mark Parnell
<we*******@clarkecomputers.com.au> wrote:
Previously in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Mark Parnell
<we*******@clarkecomputers.com.au> said:
Previously in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, "Mason A. Clark"
<ma*************@ix.netcom.com> said:
> Must it have content?
Yes, as above.
My bad. No, it doesn't have to have content.
But content is necessary for Opera to find it.
In Opera <a name="foo"></a> does not work.
Opera responds to id="foo".
<a name="foo" id="foo"></a> works for all browsers that I've ever
tried.
Try this validated page on the world's best browser, Opera: http://masonc.home.netcom.com/1template-1.html
Look for the "Return to the top" link at the bottom of the page.
Look for your <a name="top" id="top"></a> below <body>
Opera needs content in <a...></a> IE6 and Firefox do not.
Mason C (now I have to go stuff content in all my 47 pages)
Mason A. Clark wrote:
(now I have to go stuff content in all my 47 pages)
"find and replace" - shouldn't take you longer than 5 seconds.
--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -
Now playing: Yes - Going For The One
Mason A. Clark wrote: But the W3C site says:
"However, browser support for ID link destinations is very poor, so A NAME will
be needed for quite awhile. "
Really? Where does the W3C say that?
"Mason A. Clark" wrote:
This seems too simple by I can't find the answer.
Must <a name="foo"> be closed with </a> ?
Must it have content?
W3C says the content cannot be block so what if :
<a name="foo">
<h2>Foo Is Good</h2> ( a likely location )
Where does the closer </a> go?
<a name="foo"> </a> is ok but uses a line
<h2>Foo Is Good</h2>
Mason C
Any <a> tag requires a closing </a>. This is because the anchor
(element using the <a> tag) may indeed have content; thus, a
closing tag is required to end the content whether or not the
anchor has any actual content.
When I use the NAME attribute, I use a blank content:
<a name="foo"> </a>
I put this just before the section of the page to which I want it
to apply. Thus:
<a name="foo"> </a>
<h2>Foo Is Good</h2>
I do it this way because selecting the link
<a href="#foo">Go To Foo</a>
with some browsers positions the window with the anchor at the very
top of the page. With the anchor before the applicable section,
the section is then positioned slightly below the top of the page.
I use the NAME attribute for the anchor instead of ID because NAME
is specifically the attribute for "the destination of another link"
(HTML 4.01 specification). The ID attribute is more general and
thus less mnemonic. Since I manually edit my HTML, mnemonic
markups are very important to me if I am to modify a page I haven't
touched in over a year.
--
David E. Ross
<URL:http://www.rossde.com/>
I use Mozilla as my Web browser because I want a browser that
complies with Web standards. See <URL:http://www.mozilla.org/>.
On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:49:20 +0200, Els <el*********@tiscali.nl> wrote: Mason A. Clark wrote:
(now I have to go stuff content in all my 47 pages)
"find and replace" - shouldn't take you longer than 5 seconds.
15 seconds actually, lock load and fire, for about 33 pages -- some long.
I use Search and Replace from http://www.funduc.com -- a superb program.
Note that "wild card" is needed to search/replace <a name=*></a> where
there may be other ></a> 's not <a name 's
Mason C
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:51:35 -0700, David Ross <no****@nowhere.not> wrote: "Mason A. Clark" wrote:
This seems too simple by I can't find the answer.
Must <a name="foo"> be closed with </a> ?
Must it have content?
W3C says the content cannot be block so what if :
<a name="foo">
<h2>Foo Is Good</h2> ( a likely location )
Where does the closer </a> go?
<a name="foo"> </a> is ok but uses a line
<h2>Foo Is Good</h2>
Mason C
Any <a> tag requires a closing </a>. This is because the anchor
(element using the <a> tag) may indeed have content; thus, a
closing tag is required to end the content whether or not the
anchor has any actual content.
When I use the NAME attribute, I use a blank content:
<a name="foo"> </a>
Opera does *not* recognize this. I tested it just now.
IE6 and Firefox do. Opera requires actual content which
a space is not.
Mason C
I put this just before the section of the page to which I want it
to apply. Thus:
<a name="foo"> </a>
<h2>Foo Is Good</h2>
I do it this way because selecting the link
<a href="#foo">Go To Foo</a>
with some browsers positions the window with the anchor at the very
top of the page. With the anchor before the applicable section,
the section is then positioned slightly below the top of the page.
I use the NAME attribute for the anchor instead of ID because NAME
is specifically the attribute for "the destination of another link"
(HTML 4.01 specification). The ID attribute is more general and
thus less mnemonic. Since I manually edit my HTML, mnemonic
markups are very important to me if I am to modify a page I haven't
touched in over a year.
I agree and I use "name". However, Opera, IE6, and Firefox do
recognize id *or* name. ( with content, e.g <a name="foo"> </a> )
David Ross <no****@nowhere.not> wrote: When I use the NAME attribute, I use a blank content:
<a name="foo"> </a>
Mason A. Clark <ma*******@THISix.netcom.comQQQ> wrote: Opera does *not* recognize this. I tested it just now.
After reading all this "discussion", I had to try it myself. Here's the
test setup I used.
In foo.html:
<!-- Several screenfuls of Lorem Ipsum -->
<a name="foo"> </a>
<h2>foo</h2>
<p><a href="bar.html#bar">go to bar</a>
<p><a href="foo.html#baz">go to baz</a>
<!-- Several screenfuls of Lorem Ipsum -->
<a name="baz"> </a>
<h2>baz</h2>
<p><a href="#foo">go to foo</a>
<!-- Several screenfuls of Lorem Ipsum -->
In bar.html:
<!-- Several screenfuls of Lorem Ipsum -->
<a name="bar"> </a>
<h2>bar</h2>
<p><a href="foo.html#foo">go to foo</a>
<!-- Several screenfuls of Lorem Ipsum -->
Opera 8.01 on MS Windows worked just fine with all 3 types of links:
href="#tag", href="thisdoc#tag", and href="otherdoc#tag", with local files
and with documents from an HTTP server, with no DOCTYPE and with HTML 4.01
Strict, with <a name=...></a> and with <a name=...> </a>.
In what situation did Opera not recognize this type of anchor? And what
version of Opera?
--
Darin McGrew, mc****@stanfordalumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, da***@htmlhelp.com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/
"Nice is different than good." - Sondheim (LRRH, "Into the Woods")
On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 20:34:50 +0000 (UTC), Darin McGrew
<mc****@stanfordalumni.org> wrote: David Ross <no****@nowhere.not> wrote: When I use the NAME attribute, I use a blank content:
<a name="foo"> </a>
Mason A. Clark <ma*******@THISix.netcom.comQQQ> wrote: Opera does *not* recognize this. I tested it just now.
After reading all this "discussion", I had to try it myself. Here's the
test setup I used.
In foo.html:
<!-- Several screenfuls of Lorem Ipsum -->
<a name="foo"> </a>
<h2>foo</h2>
<p><a href="bar.html#bar">go to bar</a>
<p><a href="foo.html#baz">go to baz</a>
<!-- Several screenfuls of Lorem Ipsum -->
<a name="baz"> </a>
<h2>baz</h2>
<p><a href="#foo">go to foo</a>
<!-- Several screenfuls of Lorem Ipsum -->
In bar.html:
<!-- Several screenfuls of Lorem Ipsum -->
<a name="bar"> </a>
<h2>bar</h2>
<p><a href="foo.html#foo">go to foo</a>
<!-- Several screenfuls of Lorem Ipsum -->
Opera 8.01 on MS Windows worked just fine with all 3 types of links:
href="#tag", href="thisdoc#tag", and href="otherdoc#tag", with local files
and with documents from an HTTP server, with no DOCTYPE and with HTML 4.01
Strict, with <a name=...></a> and with <a name=...> </a>.
In what situation did Opera not recognize this type of anchor? And what
version of Opera?
See Els post 7/8/2005 2:43 AM Els found a special situation
in my demo url and opined it was a bug in Opera.
The demo is sitting at: http://masonc.home.netcom.com/1template-1.html
It has <a name="top"></a> and <a href="#top"> and
does not work. Look for href near the bottom and
<a name right below <body
In view of this experience I would not depend on Opera 8.01 to
find an empty <a name="foo"> </a> (spaces don't count)
I'm using <a name="foo"> </a> until I find something better.
Mason C why does no one believe in me?
=========the end===fini====caput====
I wrote: Opera 8.01 on MS Windows worked just fine with all 3 types of links:
href="#tag", href="thisdoc#tag", and href="otherdoc#tag", with local files
and with documents from an HTTP server, with no DOCTYPE and with HTML 4.01
Strict, with <a name=...></a> and with <a name=...> </a>.
In what situation did Opera not recognize this type of anchor? And what
version of Opera?
Mason A. Clark <ma*******@THISix.netcom.comQQQ> wrote: The demo is sitting at:
http://masonc.home.netcom.com/1template-1.html
It's an interaction between the link to the named anchor and your use of
"POSITION: fixed" in your style sheet. The problem goes away when I comment
out that property.
Actually, even with that property, Opera tries to do something; the page
scrolls up a few pixels each time I click on the "Return to the top of this
page" link.
Of course, I find "Return to the top of this page" links amusingly
pointless anyway, but that's another discussion.
--
Darin McGrew, mc****@stanfordalumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, da***@htmlhelp.com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/
"Good teachers are costly. Bad teachers cost more." - Bob Talbert
On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:19:46 +0000 (UTC), Darin McGrew
<mc****@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:
Of course, I find "Return to the top of this page" links amusingly
pointless anyway, but that's another discussion.
I've been accused of trolling. Isn't this a troll?
If a page must be scrolled. Surely an easy flip to the top is a
convenience to the viewer.
Mason C but..... enough of this thread it's done !
Mason A. Clark <ma*************@ix.netcom.com> wrote: On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:19:46 +0000 (UTC), Darin McGrew
<mc****@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:
Of course, I find "Return to the top of this page" links amusingly
pointless anyway, but that's another discussion.
I've been accused of trolling. Isn't this a troll?
Depends on what "this" refers to.
If a page must be scrolled. Surely an easy flip to the top is a
convenience to the viewer.
Do you mean that you find it more comfortable to scroll down to a
"Return to the top of this page", carefully position the pointer over
it and click on it than to press the keyboard key "Home", for example?
Did you even print a page containing "Return to the top of this page"
links and think how manifestly foolish they look like on paper?
Mason C but..... enough of this thread it's done !
Who died and made you the czar of Usenet?
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
I wrote: Of course, I find "Return to the top of this page" links amusingly
pointless anyway, but that's another discussion.
Mason A. Clark <ma*******@THISix.netcom.comQQQ> wrote: If a page must be scrolled. Surely an easy flip to the top is a
convenience to the viewer.
Absolutely. And every browser I've used has had at least one built-in
mechanism for returning to the top of the current page quickly. There's no
need for such links on web pages.
Of course, browsers also have built-in mechanisms for navigating the
browser history (forward, back, etc.), printing pages, bookmarking pages,
opening links in new windows, closing windows, setting font sizes, etc.
--
Darin McGrew, mc****@stanfordalumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, da***@htmlhelp.com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/
"Good teachers are costly. Bad teachers cost more." - Bob Talbert
Mason A. Clark <ma*************@ix.netcom.com> wrote: On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:19:46 +0000 (UTC), Darin McGrew
<mc****@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:
Of course, I find "Return to the top of this page" links amusingly
pointless anyway, but that's another discussion.
I've been accused of trolling. Isn't this a troll?
If a page must be scrolled. Surely an easy flip to the top is a
convenience to the viewer.
Yes, that's why the user has the Home key on their keyboard. It
returns them to the top of the page on every single page. Compare with
links that may or may not have been included on particular pages and
which if they are included will be in different places and styled
differently on every page. So which is easier for the user?
Steve
--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
Els <el*********@tiscali.nl> wrote in
news:84****************************@40tude.net: Mason A. Clark wrote: <H2 id="fooname" .. has been suggested.
But the W3C site says:
"However, browser support for ID link destinations is very poor,
so A NAME will be needed for quite awhile. "
Can't say I've found a user agent yet that fails to find <a
id="foo" name="foo"></a>. Anyone know which one would fail that?
IIRC, Netscape 4. I didn't find the quoted page at W3C, but a similar
page at <http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/special/a.html> is
dated from 1998, when NS4's various incompetencies would have merited a
warning like this.
--
Thomas Dowling
Ohio Library and Information Network
On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 08:05:41 GMT, Mason A. Clark <ma*************@ix.netcom.com>
wrote: On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:19:46 +0000 (UTC), Darin McGrew
<mc****@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:
Of course, I find "Return to the top of this page" links amusingly
pointless anyway, but that's another discussion.
I've been accused of trolling. Isn't this a troll?
If a page must be scrolled. Surely an easy flip to the top is a
convenience to the viewer.
Mason C but..... enough of this thread it's done !
In the *real world* there are users who do not know their
keys will do something -- home for example.
And users like me whose lazy hand rests on the mouse.
btw, why would one have a css allowing printing of
useless stuff on paper?
Start your own thread. This is mine. End it.
Mason C usenet czar, pompous ass, stuffed shirt
Mason A. Clark wrote: On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 08:05:41 GMT, Mason A. Clark <ma*************@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
In the *real world* there are users who do not know their
keys will do something -- home for example.
Except in rather unusual circumstances, it's *their* responsibility to
learn how to use their chosen browser.
And users like me whose lazy hand rests on the mouse.
"Improving the experience" for the clueless or lazy at the expense of
degrading it for those who've achieved at least minimal competence is
almost always a bad idea.
Start your own thread. This is mine. End it.
Mason C usenet czar, pompous ass, stuffed shirt
Well, two out of three ain't bad...
Dave
I wrote: Of course, I find "Return to the top of this page" links amusingly
pointless anyway, but that's another discussion.
Mason A. Clark <ma*******@THISix.netcom.comQQQ> wrote: In the *real world* there are users who do not know their
keys will do something -- home for example.
And users like me whose lazy hand rests on the mouse.
The browsers I'm familiar with have mouse-based ways to get to the top of
the page quickly, too.
The built-in mechanisms of the browser work reliably on every page. Web
authors' attempts to replicate browser functionality are less reliable.
And users who don't know how to use basic functions of their browsers will
only be confused when various pages imitate those functions inconsistently.
Start your own thread. This is mine. End it.
What makes you think that the original poster owns the thread? What makes
you think that anyone owns a thread? If you're tired of it, then stop
reading it. Killfiles are your friend.
--
Darin McGrew, mc****@stanfordalumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, da***@htmlhelp.com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/
"Shin: a device for finding furniture in the dark." - Steven Wright
On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 17:46:43 -0400, Dave Anderson <da**@daveanderson.com> wrote: Mason A. Clark wrote: On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 08:05:41 GMT, Mason A. Clark <ma*************@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
In the *real world* there are users who do not know their
keys will do something -- home for example.
Except in rather unusual circumstances, it's *their* responsibility to
learn how to use their chosen browser.
And users like me whose lazy hand rests on the mouse.
"Improving the experience" for the clueless or lazy at the expense of
degrading it for those who've achieved at least minimal competence is
almost always a bad idea.
Are you trolling for a discussion of Social Security funding?
One never goes wrong by assuming the minimum of viewer skill.
I, for one, -- if without the trick of cancelling style sheets -- would
find the web very uncomfortable to view.
And if it weren't for css I couldn't do that -- a big benefit of css.
(and my eyes and monitor are good)
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