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Microsoft Patents Saving The Name Of A Game

--> From http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20040406/1349225.shtml

Microsoft Patents Saving The Name Of A Game
Contributed by Mike on Tuesday, April 6th, 2004 @ 01:49PM
from the yeah,-that's-non-obvious dept.

theodp writes "As if there weren't enough dodgy patents, here's an
excerpt from one granted to Microsoft Tuesday for a 'Method and
apparatus for displaying information regarding stored data in a gaming
system': 'When saving a game, the saved game data may include a
descriptive name of the saved game, a graphic representation of the
state of the game when the game was saved, a description of the game
state when the game was saved, and a date and time that the game was
saved.'" I'm trying to figure out if there's more to this patent, but
the more I read, the worse it seems. How is this possibly
"non-obvious"?

--> Link to Patent

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...mber=6,716,102

--> Link to Patent File History (Shows Two Earlier Rejections)

http://pair.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/final/...mber=6,716,102
Jul 20 '05
138 6615
Rahul Dhesi wrote:
The patent says that one game shouldn't be able to read the files of
another game. So if all the games ran setuid to 'games', it's not the
same as the method in the patent.
The idea of different applications having their own data files, that
other applications cannot read, is quite ancient. That's one reason why
the setuid bit was invented.


First, I don't think that this concept was novel with UNIX,
but rather with at a minimum with the early timesharing
mainframes. You had to segregate access to data by user
or groups. It was clearly present with my first timesharing
system in the late 1960's. Remember, UNIX was essentially
a port of MULTICS from a mainframe to a minicomputer.

But there is a subtle distinction here that may have some
relevance. In those systems (including UNIX), access control
is/was by user or group of users. As noted, this is essential
for effective multiuser or timesharing systems. But in the
MSFT system, access control can be by application. It was not
clear from the patent why that was that overly useful, but there
it was, logically somewhat orthogonal to the typical practice.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The preceding was not a legal opinion, and is not my employer's.
Original portions Copyright 2004 Bruce E. Hayden,all rights reserved
My work may be copied in whole or part, with proper attribution,
as long as the copying is not for commercial gain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce E. Hayden bh*****@ieee.or g
Dillon, Colorado bh*****@highdow n.com
Phoenix, Arizona bh*****@copatla w.com

Jul 20 '05 #61
In article <ba************ **************@ comcast.ash.gig anews.com>, Barry
Margolin wrote:
Although this may be possible, I think most current operating systems
would make it difficult to implement some of the claims. In particular,
this excerpt from claim 39: "preventing , other than with the application,
access to data in the first storage area or the second storage area."

I don't think Windows or Unix can easily implement a mechanism where a
normal user can create a file that can only be accessed when running a
specific game. I suppose on Unix you could do it by making each game
TOPS-10 could have done it, though, if I recall correctly. One of the cool
things you could specify in access list rules was the program that they
applied to.
setuid or setgid to an game-specific user/group, but there wouldn't be
anything preventing the administrator from assigning the same user/group
ID to multiple games.


You could do it with just one game user and/or group. When a game wants to
access a file, it would run a program that is setuid and/or setgid to the
game user and/or group, and then request access from that program. That
program could then open the file, and pass the file descriptor to the game,
after doing the necessary permission checks.

--
--Tim Smith
Jul 20 '05 #62
In article <ba************ **************@ comcast.ash.gig anews.com>, Barry
Margolin wrote:
Although this may be possible, I think most current operating systems
would make it difficult to implement some of the claims. In particular,
this excerpt from claim 39: "preventing , other than with the application,
access to data in the first storage area or the second storage area."

I don't think Windows or Unix can easily implement a mechanism where a
normal user can create a file that can only be accessed when running a
specific game. I suppose on Unix you could do it by making each game
TOPS-10 could have done it, though, if I recall correctly. One of the cool
things you could specify in access list rules was the program that they
applied to.
setuid or setgid to an game-specific user/group, but there wouldn't be
anything preventing the administrator from assigning the same user/group
ID to multiple games.


You could do it with just one game user and/or group. When a game wants to
access a file, it would run a program that is setuid and/or setgid to the
game user and/or group, and then request access from that program. That
program could then open the file, and pass the file descriptor to the game,
after doing the necessary permission checks.

--
--Tim Smith
Jul 20 '05 #63
In article <ba************ **************@ comcast.ash.gig anews.com>, Barry
Margolin wrote:
The patent says that one game shouldn't be able to read the files of
another game. So if all the games ran setuid to 'games', it's not the
same as the method in the patent.

I'm not sure why Microsoft considers this an important feature of the
invention. Even if one game can access the saved game files of another,
they're not likely to make sense to it. It hardly seems necessary to take
special steps to prevent the access. Maybe this narrowing of the patent's
scope was necessary for them to get the patent approved.


It could be an anti-cheating measure. Game consoles nowadays do support
network play, so it's somewhat more important to prevent cheating than it
was when the games were all non-networked.

--
--Tim Smith
Jul 20 '05 #64
In article <ba************ **************@ comcast.ash.gig anews.com>, Barry
Margolin wrote:
The patent says that one game shouldn't be able to read the files of
another game. So if all the games ran setuid to 'games', it's not the
same as the method in the patent.

I'm not sure why Microsoft considers this an important feature of the
invention. Even if one game can access the saved game files of another,
they're not likely to make sense to it. It hardly seems necessary to take
special steps to prevent the access. Maybe this narrowing of the patent's
scope was necessary for them to get the patent approved.


It could be an anti-cheating measure. Game consoles nowadays do support
network play, so it's somewhat more important to prevent cheating than it
was when the games were all non-networked.

--
--Tim Smith
Jul 20 '05 #65
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Barry Margolin wrote:
Why limit Claim 1 to covering only half the computer systems in
existence? Wouldn't it be better if Claim 1 covered all computer
systems?
Perhaps they weren't able to get the patent approved with such a broad
claim.


They have enough other broad claims, and still got it approved ...
Although it doesn't seem to have a precise enough definition to
satisfy the folks in this thread, maybe the patent examiner took the
phrase "game console" more literally, to refer to a dedicated
game-running device rather than a general-purpose computer.
That's a bad patent examiner, then. What, exactly, sets apart a
game-running device and a general-purpose computer? Something like that
needs to be *specifically* defined, and *not* up to interpretation, or
the patent could be misused.
If that's not the intent, what's the point of saying "A game console,
comprising..." rather than "A computer, comprising..."?


If they are vague enough, they might get the patent approved because the
examiner interprets game console in the way it's *probably* meant to be
used, but Microsoft could still attempt to apply the patent to all
computers. It wouldn't be beneath them to try such tricks.

At any rate, the patent should have never been approved, as it doesn't
cover anything really new or innovative. At least nothing non-trivial.

[Followup-To: comp.os.linux.a dvocacy]

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--
PeKaJe

Men use thought only to justify their wrong doings, and speech only to
conceal their thoughts. -- Voltaire
Jul 20 '05 #66
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Barry Margolin wrote:
Why limit Claim 1 to covering only half the computer systems in
existence? Wouldn't it be better if Claim 1 covered all computer
systems?
Perhaps they weren't able to get the patent approved with such a broad
claim.


They have enough other broad claims, and still got it approved ...
Although it doesn't seem to have a precise enough definition to
satisfy the folks in this thread, maybe the patent examiner took the
phrase "game console" more literally, to refer to a dedicated
game-running device rather than a general-purpose computer.
That's a bad patent examiner, then. What, exactly, sets apart a
game-running device and a general-purpose computer? Something like that
needs to be *specifically* defined, and *not* up to interpretation, or
the patent could be misused.
If that's not the intent, what's the point of saying "A game console,
comprising..." rather than "A computer, comprising..."?


If they are vague enough, they might get the patent approved because the
examiner interprets game console in the way it's *probably* meant to be
used, but Microsoft could still attempt to apply the patent to all
computers. It wouldn't be beneath them to try such tricks.

At any rate, the patent should have never been approved, as it doesn't
cover anything really new or innovative. At least nothing non-trivial.

[Followup-To: comp.os.linux.a dvocacy]

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Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFAdRp4d1Z ThqotgfgRAk85AK C64wlYfmb64mBBk Hf3Ug6WpoyiWQCe OckB
4DUzH4ICBrtT7cz 2bxv5cjU=
=t9lq
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--
PeKaJe

Men use thought only to justify their wrong doings, and speech only to
conceal their thoughts. -- Voltaire
Jul 20 '05 #67
In article <1g************ *************** ***@40tude.net> , Mike wrote:
So, you're looking at this patent the wrong way, and giving it far too
much scope in the process. The first claim is for a video game that
includes a game console, processor, two hard disks, and data. Other video
game consoles that do not include two hard disks or a console are _not_
covered. Taken in that light, it's not so overreaching after all.


Except it does not say anything about two disks in the first claim. It says
two subdirectories.

--
--Tim Smith
Jul 20 '05 #68
In article <1g************ *************** ***@40tude.net> , Mike wrote:
So, you're looking at this patent the wrong way, and giving it far too
much scope in the process. The first claim is for a video game that
includes a game console, processor, two hard disks, and data. Other video
game consoles that do not include two hard disks or a console are _not_
covered. Taken in that light, it's not so overreaching after all.


Except it does not say anything about two disks in the first claim. It says
two subdirectories.

--
--Tim Smith
Jul 20 '05 #69
Barry Margolin wrote:
Why limit Claim 1 to covering only half the computer systems in
existence? Wouldn't it be better if Claim 1 covered all computer
systems?

I really don't see from just the patent why it shouldn't.
Perhaps they weren't able to get the patent approved with such a broad
claim.

Although it doesn't seem to have a precise enough definition to satisfy
the folks in this thread, maybe the patent examiner took the phrase
"game console" more literally, to refer to a dedicated game-running
device rather than a general-purpose computer. If that's not the
intent, what's the point of saying "A game console, comprising..."
rather than "A computer, comprising..."?


I am trying to find something on which to hang my hat as far as
validating the broader claims, such as the notorious claim 1.
The problem is that in the patent, a game console is defined as
part of a game system, and a game system is defined as something
that could arguably include a general purpose computer. You
seem to be arguing for a definition based on the term itself,
or maybe on the few examples (PS2, XBox) given in the patent.

But there are two problems with that. First, a patent applicant
(or his attorney/agent) is his own lexographer. Here, one could
argue that the applicant defined game systems as being "capable of
playing game discs, music CDs, and movie DVDs from a disc drive",
game systems having a game console, controller(s), and a display,
and game consoles having a processor, memory, and a hard drive.

What was startling somewhat was the XBox description as
essentially a slightly stripped down PC, built with commodity
PC parts, repackaged, but, never the less, from a hardware
point of view, a PC.

Secondly, we don't know where technology is going to be in 2023
when this patent will potentially expire. Early game machiines
were truly custom built and provided minimumal functionality.
The difference between them and computers was fairly evident.
But when they essentially become repackaged PCs, the gap has
closed almost all the way, and I will suggest that it is likely
that the gap will close the rest of the way in the very near
future.

Where do you draw the line? I don't think that it is clear
from the patent. Is it when you can't do word processing
on the game console? Is it when you can't do spreadsheets?
Is it when the purpose of the item is primarily game playing?
But how do you characterize a living room appliance that
provides TiVo capabilities, allows surfing the Web using your
HDTV as a monitor, and, by the way, can play all of those XBox
games? After all, why do you think MSFT got into this business
in the first place? If they control both the office environment
and a good percentage of the gaming environment, they have a
good chance at controlling the room appliance business.

As to why not say a "computer", etc.? We have had any number
of examples where a computer comprises:
a processor; and
a non-removable hard disk drive coupled to the processor, the hard disk
drive including a first subdirectory configured to store data associated
with a first application, and the hard disk drive including a second
subdirectory configured to store data associated with a second application.

Most notably, MSFT's own NT Windows operating systems. In
particular, this Windows 2000 system stores the configuration
parameters for each different application in its own subdirectory.
Thus, Netscape/Mozilla uses here:
E:\Documents and Settings\BEHSYS D.BEHSYSD\Appli cation Data\Mozilla
While Phoenix uses:
E:\Documents and Settings\BEHSYS D.BEHSYSD\Appli cation Data\Phoenix
and Adobe Acrobat uses:
E:\Documents and Settings\BEHSYS D.BEHSYSD\Appli cation Data\Adobe\Acro bat

Clearly subdirectories associated with different applications.
Note BTW that if you don't turn your MSFT Windows sytem into a
multiuser system, it really won't be. My laptop, as shipped from HP,
had one user, "Owner". In older versions (Win98), turning a system
into a multiuser system required a major reconfiguration of files.
NT versions just start with the above setup. Most people leave
their Windows running as single user systems, and thus, there is
only one subdirectory in which to store, for example, your Netscape
application data, such as your mailbox, cache, etc., as opposed
to the one per user in a multiuser system.

Thus, you have "a first subdirectory configured to store data associated
with a first application", and "a second subdirectory configured to
store data associated with a second application", all typically
on the same disk drive.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The preceding was not a legal opinion, and is not my employer's.
Original portions Copyright 2004 Bruce E. Hayden,all rights reserved
My work may be copied in whole or part, with proper attribution,
as long as the copying is not for commercial gain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce E. Hayden bh*****@ieee.or g
Dillon, Colorado bh*****@highdow n.com
Phoenix, Arizona bh*****@copatla w.com

Jul 20 '05 #70

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