Which web design program to use

[Helpful person]

I am presently using FrontPage. I need to change to a different
program because FrontPage is now obsolete. In addition, FrontPage
creates awful code.

Are there programs out there (Dreamweaver or Expressions) that do a
good job at web design, including producing compliant code?

www.richardfisher.com

[Adrienne Boswell]

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Helpful person <rr****@yahoo.c om>
writing in news:11******** **************@ u30g2000hsc.goo glegroups.com:

I am presently using FrontPage. I need to change to a different
program because FrontPage is now obsolete. In addition, FrontPage
creates awful code.

Are there programs out there (Dreamweaver or Expressions) that do a
good job at web design, including producing compliant code?

www.richardfisher.com

Seems we already answered this a few days ago... hmmm... [sounds of
rummaging] Ah yes! The subject was HTML 4.01 Books - and I said in
<http://tinyurl.com/yt2nen>:

Get a good plain text editor, and a good plain text CSS editor. I like
HTML-Kit and TopStyle.
--
Adrienne Boswell at Home
Arbpen Web Site Design Services
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share

[Helpful person]

On May 15, 11:54 pm, Adrienne Boswell <arb...@yahoo.c omwrote:

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Helpful person <rrl...@yahoo.c om>
writing innews:11****** *************** *@u30g2000hsc.g ooglegroups.com :

I am presently using FrontPage. I need to change to a different
program because FrontPage is now obsolete. In addition, FrontPage
creates awful code.

Are there programs out there (Dreamweaver or Expressions) that do a
good job at web design, including producing compliant code?

www.richardfisher.com

Seems we already answered this a few days ago... hmmm... [sounds of
rummaging] Ah yes! The subject was HTML 4.01 Books - and I said in
<http://tinyurl.com/yt2nen>:

Get a good plain text editor, and a good plain text CSS editor. I like
HTML-Kit and TopStyle.

--
Adrienne Boswell at Home
Arbpen Web Site Design Serviceshttp://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share

Yes, I want to learn HTML. However, as this will take a long time, in
the meantime I need a web design program.

www.richardfisher.com

[Andy Dingley]

On 16 May 2007 14:21:22 -0700, Helpful person <rr****@yahoo.c omwrote:

>Yes, I want to learn HTML. However, as this will take a long time,

Why?

in the meantime I need a web design program.

Again, why?
There are lots of people here who work with HTML all day, every day.
Some of them even teach courses in it, such as "Web design from scratch,
without expensive programs, for people who have no pre-existing
knowledge of it" (BTDT myself).

So I suggest you take the advice of those people who already know HTML,
and who have helped other people to learn it. You _don't_ need an
expensive "web design" program. Such programs don't even work at all
well. They also need almost as much skill to use properly as a simple
editor does. Don't let them fool you that they take the skill out of the
task -- at most they just automate some of the tedious stuff.

If you really have to get something, try Nvu. At least you'll like the
price.

OTOH, you could use a pointy stick and it would still be better than
Frontplague.

[David Stone]

In article <32************ *************** *****@4ax.com>,
Andy Dingley <di*****@codesm iths.comwrote:

On 16 May 2007 14:21:22 -0700, Helpful person <rr****@yahoo.c omwrote:

Yes, I want to learn HTML. However, as this will take a long time,

Why?

in the meantime I need a web design program.

Again, why?
There are lots of people here who work with HTML all day, every day.
Some of them even teach courses in it, such as "Web design from scratch,
without expensive programs, for people who have no pre-existing
knowledge of it" (BTDT myself).

I would tend to agree. It's much easier to learn html (or pretty
much anything else) if you have some actual use in mind for it.
Just start simple with the basic bits and pieces (html, head, body,
h1, p, and a will get you a functional page in very short order)
then build up slowly. Just keep in mind from the outset that the
html is for structuring the content into logical bits (semantic
markup) while css is for making things look pretty (layout and
design).

The biggest problem with web design programs (apart from whether
or not they produce reasonable markup) is that they tend to get
people focussed on the 'look and feel' rather than content and
ease of access to relevant information. There are, sadly, many
web sites out there that look terrific, but are a total waste
of space and time when it comes to actually trying to find any
useful information on them...

[Bruce Lewis]

Helpful person <rr****@yahoo.c omwrites:

On May 15, 11:54 pm, Adrienne Boswell <arb...@yahoo.c omwrote:

Get a good plain text editor, and a good plain text CSS editor. I like
HTML-Kit and TopStyle.

Yes, I want to learn HTML. However, as this will take a long time, in
the meantime I need a web design program.

It doesn't need to take a long time. Find a template you like at

http://www.oswd.org/
or
http://www.openwebdesign.org/

Then use the editor to put in the content you want.

[Helpful person]

On May 16, 7:01 pm, Andy Dingley <ding...@codesm iths.comwrote:

On 16 May 2007 14:21:22 -0700, Helpful person <rrl...@yahoo.c omwrote:

Yes, I want to learn HTML. However, as this will take a long time,

Why?

in the meantime I need a web design program.

Again, why?

There are lots of people here who work with HTML all day, every day.
Some of them even teach courses in it, such as "Web design from scratch,
without expensive programs, for people who have no pre-existing
knowledge of it" (BTDT myself).

So I suggest you take the advice of those people who already know HTML,
and who have helped other people to learn it. You _don't_ need an
expensive "web design" program. Such programs don't even work at all
well. They also need almost as much skill to use properly as a simple
editor does. Don't let them fool you that they take the skill out of the
task -- at most they just automate some of the tedious stuff.

If you really have to get something, try Nvu. At least you'll like the
price.

OTOH, you could use a pointy stick and it would still be better than
Frontplague.

I disagree that it requires as much skill (effort) to learn a design
program as HTML for the casual user. I could probably reasonably
rewrite my web site in HTML without too much effort. However, if one
does not use a language on a regular basis it is very difficult to
return at a later date to make additions and changes. This is why I
wish to use a web design program in addition to learning HTML.

However, I do agree that the correct pointed stick might be as good as
FrontPage.

www.richardfisher.com

[Sherm Pendley]

Helpful person <rr****@yahoo.c omwrites:

I disagree that it requires as much skill (effort) to learn a design
program as HTML for the casual user.

You're right - HTML is far easier to learn than a design app.

sherm--

--
Web Hosting by West Virginians, for West Virginians: http://wv-www.net
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net

[Scott Bryce]

Helpful person wrote:

I disagree that it requires as much skill (effort) to learn a design
program as HTML for the casual user.

The problem, in my experience, is that unless you know HTML well enough
not to need the program, you will not know how to use the program to
generate clean HTML. Then you will need to go back and clean it up by
hand. It would be easier to do it right in the first place.

If by "casual user" you mean someone who doesn't really care if the HTML
is clean, and therefore has a fighting chance of being viewed the way
you intend in a variety of browsers, then use whatever tool you want to use.

[Andy Dingley]

On 17 May, 14:46, Helpful person <rrl...@yahoo.c omwrote:

I disagree that it requires as much skill (effort) to learn a design
program as HTML for the casual user.

How could you possibly know that? As you say, you don't even know
HTML.

When a bunch of HTML experts (and the readership here _is_ expert) say
that hand-editing is easier, better and as easy to learn as an over-
complex WYSIWYG, then I'd suggest taking that advice over someone who
only has limited experience of one awful program.

The dissonance arises through two causes:

* You think HTML is harder than it really is.

* You don't realise how bad all WYSIWYG programs are, and how much
extra knowledge is required to extract a competent result from them.

DreamWeaver is a far better program than FrontPage, but both require
much the same additional knowledge to get good results. DW just
doesn't fight against you as hard to try and stop you.