On Thu, 4 May 2006 22:30:09 +0300 "W?rm" <no************ *@north.invalid > wrote:
|
| <ph************ **@ipal.net> kirjoitti
| viestiss?:e3*** ******@news3.ne wsguy.com...
|
| <snip>
|
|> So he's shifting off topic and trying to address the person instead of
|> the issue. That's not the first time he's done so.
|
| Not true. My point is that most of the time in _your examples_ you are NOT
| using semantically meaningful elements for the things you do. That's all. I
| don't see point of you trying to stick using table to define LAYOUT. Because
| that's what you keep doing. It might be hard to unlearn thinking in table
| way, but it's worth it.
I don't see _anyone_ doing any layout that gets what I want to have
who uses anything but tables. People have suggested things before and
it did not work (not same semantics ... stuff like rightmost column
falls down to left side, which is unacceptable).
| Even in latest drop shadow thing you keep using table to create layout
| structure.
And so far, it takes that to ensure it works.
|> But I think he needs to stay _on_ topic for 2 reasons.
|> One is that it can get confusing when the deviation is made. And two,
|> he hasn't really addressed the TABLE/TR/TD issue adequately.
|
| I am saying you use table to position things, like your columns.
|
|
http://www.kolumbus.fi/ace/ng/boxes.html is quick mock up without tables. I
| have no idea where it works because I didn't really test it that much
| though...
Some issues exist:
1. Text falls outside of these boxes, but does not with tables.
Maybe that's another property that table/tr/td defaults to
that you could add.
2. The content producer (that does not produce the CSS) decides how
many columns of data there are (it's the content the user selects).
3. There's no savings here. That's been touted as _one_ reason to
use CSS. But I don't see it. You have as many elements as I would
just named different, and with classes.
I've been doing styles now with selectors like:
..foo
..foo>*
..foo>*>*
..foo>*>*>*
to handle each level of element to select. I suppose that could work
whether the elements involved are TABLE/TR/TD or DIV/DIV/DIV and only
need a class on the outmost one. Seems to work.
|> Merely
|> saying that I'm not using the semantics means he expects me to use some
|> other means, but only makes vague references to what those are, without
|> being specific. I think he needs to be specific because that's the only
|> way I can pin point _his_ misunderstandin g of what _I_ am trying to do.
|
| How does your ROWS and colums relate in tables, what relation that data in
| there has?
That depends one which things I'm doing. Where there are multiple rows,
each item (cell) needs to be under the others of the same column. Where
there are not, it's basically just one row of N columns to stop flow of
blocks onto the row below.
| For example first thing in your page, you are using TABLE to position
| elements. Meaning you use TABLE to position a heading of your page and
| google ads (that I have turned off, only saw those when looked in IE).
|
| On main part of page you use again TABLE to create three columns. Again to
| make a LAYOUT. And when you look inside those three tables cells, well,
| what you know. More tables.. etc. You are not using elements that have
| semantical purpose for things. Like lists (of those links) are inside tables
| and just text you use <BR> to split in lines. Etc.
Don't count the tables used to structure the drop shadow. That I know is
not what tables is for. Semantically, the drop shadows are not content,
just style, so ideally I should be able to do that in CSS. Unfortunately,
even this can't be done just in CSS. CSS needs more element laters to be
in the content to accomplish it.
| And yes, I know you have said this page is not new, so, as I look things,
| now is yout chance to "fix" things like not anymore using tables for
| position things or create layout structures.
Which is what I am working on. The drop shadows I'm going to do in CSS as
much as I can (but I still have to put 2 extra layers of DIVs in to do
stationary drop shadows, and 4 extra layers to do saluting drop shadoows
where the page rises up ... one of those layers to prevent a situation
where the salute can oscillate when the point is positioned where the
movement pulls the object out from under the pointer, then it no longer
is hovering and it comes back, then it is hovering again, over and over.
But As I said earlier, I don't see the gain in using 3 different elements
for 3 elements I already use. But the real point here is, if you can do
exactly what TABLE/TR/TD does with DIV/DIV/DIV then you've also shown that
having TABLE/TR/TD in HTML is unnecessary (and I would expect to see you
urge that they be depricated from the standard).
|> |> An early version DID use UL/LI, but that never came out right. That
|> MAY
|> |> be tweakable today, but some things like the bullet size don't seem to
|> |> be adjustable.
|> |
|> | Not AFAIK (they tend to adjust with the font size but can't be resized
|> | independently), but you can certainly remove the bullets altogether and
|> | e.g. use an image instead.
|>
|> I don't want to use an image there. I want something very tiny. The dash
|> did the job just fine.
|
| then use that in either text or
|
| li:before
| {
| content: "-";
| }
|
| That don't work IE6 or earlier though. Though if you'd use TINY image on LI
| background positioned left, it would suit too.
|
|
|> |> So for now, they are just a list formed in lines with BR.
|> |
|> | Which isn't really a list at all.
|>
|> My "semantics of a list" does not require a bullet.
|
| then use list-style-type: none;
OK.
|> I would call such a
|> thing a "bulleted list". That's not so much of a departure from an
|> ordered
|> list that gets numbered. I see the choice of bullet, or numbers, or
|> nothing
|> at all, a presentation issue, anyway. But I can't see where CSS gives me
|> those choices just yet. Maybe in CSS3?
|
| li
| {
| list-style-type: none;
| }
I missed that one. But I'm still focusing my work on other aspect of the
design right now. This is generated HTML, so I've got to get all aspects
of the coding just right on the context of the coming variations in content.
--
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| Phil Howard KA9WGN |
http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net |
http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
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