Of course, every frame site I've ever seen has reduced usability and all.
We've been through this before.
But as frameset is still a part of HTML, there must be some legitimate use
for it, hmm? For most markup I know when it's useful and when it's not,
but regarding table markup I sure know when it isn't good, but can't
really come up with a way it would be good.
As you all are among the sharpest pencils in the bag, let me ask: Do you
know of a site which uses frames in an appropriate way? Where s it, and
why do you think it's acceptable?
Jul 23 '05
95  5783 
In message <93************ **************@ posting.google. com>, Alan Wood
<al*******@cont ext.co.uk> writes Neal <ne*****@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:<op****** ********@news.i ndividual.net>. ..
Do you know of a site which uses frames in an appropriate way?
Where s it, and why do you think it's acceptable?
I use frames for indexes on one of my sites, for example:
<http://www.alanwood.ne t/pesticides/index_cn_frame. html>
I have not yet seen a browseable index of this size that does not use
frames.
I don't use frames throughout the site, only for this type of index.
There is a link at the bottom of each data sheet that brings it out of
the frames to allow bookmarking. Each data sheet can also be reached
from unframed, classified lists, so search engines can easily reach
everywhere. The site uses lots of markup that is not normally seen by
sighted visitors, and is accessible to WAI-A standard.
That's certainly a good example of "when frames aren't evil". It's hard
to see how the information could be retrieved by any other means as
easily as you've demonstrated.
regards.
--
Jake
> In message <93************ **************@ posting.google. com>, Alan Wood <al*******@cont ext.co.uk> writes
I use frames for indexes on one of my sites, for example:
<http://www.alanwood.ne t/pesticides/index_cn_frame. html>
Nice site, and massive amount of information
(I looked at it just out of curiousity).
Most of the data sheets I looked at seem to word wrap
their text to the window width -- but the one for rotenone
doesn't seem to wrap ??? (At least for my browser: Mac
OS 9.2, Netscape 7.1)
Alan Wood wrote: I am not claiming that frames are perfect, but for this type of index
there does not seem to be any alternative to frames. I have done
everything I can to make the indexes user-friendly and accessible.
I'm saying that you should either find a way to create the layout you
want in a usable way or not have that layout at all. I would have one
page with the list of pesticides which links to pages for each
individual pesticide. Users know how to use a back button.
"Leif K-Brooks" <eu*****@ecritt ers.biz> wrote in message
news:2p******** ****@uni-berlin.de... Alan Wood wrote: I am not claiming that frames are perfect, but for this type of index
there does not seem to be any alternative to frames. I have done
everything I can to make the indexes user-friendly and accessible.
I'm saying that you should either find a way to create the layout you
want in a usable way or not have that layout at all. I would have one
page with the list of pesticides which links to pages for each
individual pesticide. Users know how to use a back button.
To expand on what Leif said:
The issue you're having, Alan, is not a layout issue. The issue is an
Information Architecture issue. Frames are not the solution.
-Karl
AES/newspost <si*****@stanfo rd.edu> wrote in message news:<si******* *************** *****@news.stan ford.edu>... In message <93************ **************@ posting.google. com>, Alan Wood
<al*******@cont ext.co.uk> writes
I use frames for indexes on one of my sites, for example:
<http://www.alanwood.ne t/pesticides/index_cn_frame. html>
Most of the data sheets I looked at seem to word wrap
their text to the window width -- but the one for rotenone
doesn't seem to wrap ??? (At least for my browser: Mac
OS 9.2, Netscape 7.1)
Rotenone has an unusually long name.
I.E., Opera and Safari wrap long strings at hyphens, but Netscape 4
and the Mozilla family (including Netscape 7.1) do not.
There was a thread on this topic a few days ago.
--
Alan Wood http://www.alanwood.net (Unicode, special characters, pesticide names)
"Karl Groves" <ka**@NOSPAMkar lcore.com> wrote in message news:<ch******* ***@ngspool-d02.news.aol.co m>... "Leif K-Brooks" <eu*****@ecritt ers.biz> wrote in message
news:2p******** ****@uni-berlin.de... Alan Wood wrote: I am not claiming that frames are perfect, but for this type of index
there does not seem to be any alternative to frames. I have done
everything I can to make the indexes user-friendly and accessible.
I'm saying that you should either find a way to create the layout you
want in a usable way or not have that layout at all. I would have one
page with the list of pesticides which links to pages for each
individual pesticide. Users know how to use a back button.
To expand on what Leif said:
The issue you're having, Alan, is not a layout issue. The issue is an
Information Architecture issue. Frames are not the solution.
-Karl
You are entitled to your opinion.
I am entitled to my opinion, that frames work for the indexes in the
Compendium. I have lots of happy users who agree with me. I have
received lots of compliments about the indexes, but no complaints.
--
Alan Wood http://www.alanwood.net (Unicode, special characters, pesticide names)
(Spartanicus in comp.infosystem s. www.authoring.html) Universally recognized mistakes are not carried forward.
Welcome to human civilisation!
ObHTML: <b>SCRN,</b>
Tilman
--
"Alan Wood" <al*******@cont ext.co.uk> wrote in message
news:93******** *************** **@posting.goog le.com... "Karl Groves" <ka**@NOSPAMkar lcore.com> wrote in message
news:<ch******* ***@ngspool-d02.news.aol.co m>...
The issue you're having, Alan, is not a layout issue. The issue is an
Information Architecture issue. Frames are not the solution.
-Karl
You are entitled to your opinion.
I am entitled to my opinion, that frames work for the indexes in the
Compendium. I have lots of happy users who agree with me. I have
received lots of compliments about the indexes, but no complaints.
Believe me, receiving no complaints != having no problems.
We just got done doing a usability test on a site that dwarves yours in
complexity and volume of information.
"We receive no complaints" was the word from upper management on a site that
had a few dozen Category 1 ("show stopper") errors.
-Karl
jake wrote: In message <93************ **************@ posting.google. com>, Alan Wood
<al*******@cont ext.co.uk> writes<http://www.alanwood.ne t/pesticides/index_cn_frame. html>
That's certainly a good example of "when frames aren't evil". It's hard
to see how the information could be retrieved by any other means as
easily as you've demonstrated.
Its a static A-Z index. No other indexing scheme visible (by Status, by
number of Carbon atoms).
One page with an index, linking to each common name is sufficient. If
anything, the framed combination performs worse than the non-framed Index
page because of the number of elements listed. A full page index at least
could take advantage of multiple columns or other smarter listing
techniques. This would allow a normal browser reader to jump to the right
page quicker than a narrow left hand page list. Even a screen reader user
would find it quicker, since it would involve less jumping around in new
windows.
This one is far superior:
<url:http://www.alanwood.ne t/pesticides/class_pesticide s.html>
breaking things down into more managable chunks.
--
Isofarro.
FAQ: http://www.html-faq.com/
Recommended Hosting: http://www.affordablehost.com/
isolani: http://www.isolani.co.uk/blog/
Andrew Fedoniouk wrote: Alan, I gave a real example: site http://www.rsdn.ru
It is a portal for Russian Software Developers Community.
It serves typical tasks: forum and portal. Target audience uses 56k modem
(median of distribution) to access it.
So the idea was to minimize traffic as much as possible. This is why
frames are there.
As Darin McGrew has pointed out multiple times in this thread, if frames are
saving you bandwidth, that suggests your "UI" markup requires
simplification. Anything "static/global" that uses more than 3Kb of HTML is
a sign of a flawed design.
--
Isofarro.
FAQ: http://www.html-faq.com/
Recommended Hosting: http://www.affordablehost.com/
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