unionists versus separatists

[E. Robert Tisdale]

C programmers appear to be divided into two camps:

1. unionists who want to draw C and C++ closer together and
2. separatist who want draw C farther away from C++.

Radical separatist write C codes that C++ compilers won't accept.
Radical unionists insist that C will eventually adopt
all of the semantics of C++.

Does C really have a future separate from C++?
Will all C programmers eventually abandon C for C++?
Or will the race of C programmers eventually die out?

[James Hu]

On 2004-01-27, E. Robert Tisdale <E.**************@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:

C programmers appear to be divided into two camps:

1. unionists who want to draw C and C++ closer together and
2. separatist who want draw C farther away from C++.

Radical separatist write C codes that C++ compilers won't accept.
Radical unionists insist that C will eventually adopt
all of the semantics of C++.

Does C really have a future separate from C++?
Will all C programmers eventually abandon C for C++?
Or will the race of C programmers eventually die out?

How about rephrasing your query with "assembly language" in place of C, and
with C in place of C++?

-- James

[Richard Heathfield]

E. Robert Tisdale wrote:

C programmers appear to be divided into two camps:

1. unionists who want to draw C and C++ closer together and
2. separatist who want draw C farther away from C++.
Three camps, at least. You forgot all about those who don't give a damn what
C++ does, because C and C++ are separate languages.
Radical separatist write C codes that C++ compilers won't accept.
Don't be silly. I write C code that COBOL compilers won't accept. Does that
make me a radical separatist with respect to COBOL and C? Of course not.
Radical unionists insist that C will eventually adopt
all of the semantics of C++.
If you want C++, you know where to find it.
Does C really have a future separate from C++?
Yes.
Will all C programmers eventually abandon C for C++?
No.
Or will the race of C programmers eventually die out?

Unlikely.
--
Richard Heathfield : bi****@eton.powernet.co.uk
"Usenet is a strange place." - Dennis M Ritchie, 29 July 1999.
C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
K&R answers, C books, etc: http://users.powernet.co.uk/eton

[Papadopoulos Giannis]

E. Robert Tisdale wrote:

C programmers appear to be divided into two camps:

1. unionists who want to draw C and C++ closer together and
2. separatist who want draw C farther away from C++.

Radical separatist write C codes that C++ compilers won't accept.
Radical unionists insist that C will eventually adopt
all of the semantics of C++.

Does C really have a future separate from C++?
Will all C programmers eventually abandon C for C++?
Or will the race of C programmers eventually die out?

I program in C, though I hate for the time being anything that has to do
with C++... I am not a separist, I simply don' t like C++.. I try to
perfect my C code as a C code, not as a C++ code...

PS For OOP, I like Java more ;) (don't start a flame war plzzz)...

[Richard Heathfield]

Papadopoulos Giannis wrote:

E. Robert Tisdale wrote:

Does C really have a future separate from C++?
Will all C programmers eventually abandon C for C++?
Or will the race of C programmers eventually die out?

I program in C, though I hate for the time being anything that has to do
with C++... I am not a separist, I simply don' t like C++.. I try to
perfect my C code as a C code, not as a C++ code...

PS For OOP, I like Java more ;) (don't start a flame war plzzz)...

What do you think he was trying to start - a cosy little chat?

Mr Tisdale is a known troll. Best avoided if possible. I don't know of any C
experts who consider Mr Tisdale's opinions on C to be worth much (except in
cases where those opinions accidentally collide with good practice, which
is rare)[1]. If you're new to the language, you'd be far better off reading
articles by genuine experts, such as Chris Torek, Dan Pop (although the
latter can be a bit acerbic at times), Dik Winter, Jeremy Yallop, Christian
Bau, Jack Klein, Ben Pfaff, etc.

[1] A notable exception is the malloc-casting issue where, for reasons of
his own, the well-respected Mr Plauger happens to share an unpopular
opinion with Mr Tisdale.

--
Richard Heathfield : bi****@eton.powernet.co.uk
"Usenet is a strange place." - Dennis M Ritchie, 29 July 1999.
C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
K&R answers, C books, etc: http://users.powernet.co.uk/eton

[Nils Petter Vaskinn]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 22:56:51 -0800, E. Robert Tisdale wrote:

C programmers appear to be divided into two camps:
1. unionists who want to draw C and C++ closer together and 2.
separatist who want draw C farther away from C++.
What makes you think this? I have seen people wanting specific C++
features in C, but I've never seen anyone argue that C should/will evolve
into C++. It won't happen because there is no need for C to become C++
since we've already got C++.
Radical separatist write C codes that C++ compilers won't accept. Because you compile C as C and not C++. That shouldn't prevent a C++
program from beeing linked against C code, so what is the purpose of
writing C for C++ compilers.
Radical unionists insist that C will eventually adopt all of the
semantics of C++. What is the point? If they think C should be C++ why don't they simply use
C++?

Does C really have a future separate from C++? Yes.
Will all C programmers eventually abandon C for C++? No. They might use both. You don't throw away your screwdriver because
you've got a brand new hammer.
Or will the race of C programmers eventually die out?

Not in our lifetime.

--
NPV

"the large print giveth, and the small print taketh away"
Tom Waits - Step right up

[Martin Dickopp]

Papadopoulos Giannis <ip******@inf.uth.gr> writes:

I program in C, though I hate for the time being anything that has ^^^^ to do with C++... I am not a separist, I simply don' t like C++..

Strange that people often have such strong emotions about programming
languages...

I use C, C++, and various other languages, and I don't choose which
language to use for a specific problem by liking, but by which language
I think is the best tool for the job.

Just my 0.02,
Martin

[Richard Bos]

"E. Robert Tisdale" <E.**************@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:

C programmers appear to be divided into two camps:

1. unionists who want to draw C and C++ closer together and
2. separatist who want draw C farther away from C++.
3. Realists who know that C++ already is a different language from C,
and don't much care whether they grow closer or further away.
Radical separatist write C codes that C++ compilers won't accept.
Radical unionists insist that C will eventually adopt
all of the semantics of C++.
Realists write proper C code, without regard _or_ disregard of what a
C++ compiler accepts. It's C, not C++.
Does C really have a future separate from C++?
Of course.
Will all C programmers eventually abandon C for C++?
Don't be daft.
Or will the race of C programmers eventually die out?

Sure. So will the race of human beings.

Richard

[gswork]

"E. Robert Tisdale" <E.**************@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote in message news:<40************@jpl.nasa.gov>...

C programmers appear to be divided into two camps:

1. unionists who want to draw C and C++ closer together and
2. separatist who want draw C farther away from C++.

Radical separatist write C codes that C++ compilers won't accept.
Radical unionists insist that C will eventually adopt
all of the semantics of C++.

Does C really have a future separate from C++?
Will all C programmers eventually abandon C for C++?
Or will the race of C programmers eventually die out?

Oh, I thought you were going to talk about unions v structs (a union
of mutually exclusive data, or seperation into defined, unshared,
parts of a struct)

Well, I like structs! I don't think C and C++ are, or need be,
mutually exclusive.

I suspect what really matters is what the ISO people are advised and
consider.

[Kral Vendar]

> Mr Tisdale is a known troll. Best avoided if possible. I don't know of any
C

experts who consider Mr Tisdale's opinions on C to be worth much (except in cases where those opinions accidentally collide with good practice, which
is rare)[1]. If you're new to the language, you'd be far better off reading articles by genuine experts, such as Chris Torek, Dan Pop (although the
latter can be a bit acerbic at times), Dik Winter, Jeremy Yallop, Christian Bau, Jack Klein, Ben Pfaff, etc.

You should read a good article about net etiquete before posting on usenet.
Leave your personal opinions about other posters out of this place.

[pete]

Richard Heathfield wrote:

Mr Tisdale is a known troll. Best avoided if possible.
I don't know of any C experts who consider Mr Tisdale's
opinions on C to be worth much
(except in cases where those opinions accidentally
collide with good practice, which is rare)[1].

You can't guess wrong all the time.
You have to know everything, to be wrong all the time.

--
pete

[Mark A. Odell]

"E. Robert Tisdale" <E.**************@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote in
news:40************@jpl.nasa.gov:

Will all C programmers eventually abandon C for C++?

No. Implement a complete C run-time on an 8051, PIC, MSP420, AVR, or some
other 8-bit micro. Then try writing a C++ run-time - oops, out of CPU
resource, game over.

--
- Mark ->
--

[CBFalconer]

Kral Vendar wrote:

Mr Tisdale is a known troll. Best avoided if possible. I don't
know of any C experts who consider Mr Tisdale's opinions on C
to be worth much (except in cases where those opinions
accidentally collide with good practice, which is rare)[1]. If
you're new to the language, you'd be far better off reading
articles by genuine experts, such as Chris Torek, Dan Pop
(although the latter can be a bit acerbic at times), Dik
Winter, Jeremy Yallop, Christian Bau, Jack Klein, Ben Pfaff,
etc.

You should read a good article about net etiquete before posting
on usenet. Leave your personal opinions about other posters out
of this place.

You might search the archives for Tisdale (aka Trollsdale)
mouthings before criticizing such good advice. Then you might set
your reader to preserve attribution lines.

--
Chuck F (cb********@yahoo.com) (cb********@worldnet.att.net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address!

[Richard Heathfield]

Kral Vendar wrote:

Mr Tisdale is a known troll. Best avoided if possible. I don't know of
any

C

experts who consider Mr Tisdale's opinions on C to be worth much (except

in

cases where those opinions accidentally collide with good practice, which
is rare)[1]. If you're new to the language, you'd be far better off

reading

articles by genuine experts, such as Chris Torek, Dan Pop (although the
latter can be a bit acerbic at times), Dik Winter, Jeremy Yallop,

Christian

Bau, Jack Klein, Ben Pfaff, etc.

You should read a good article about net etiquete before posting on
usenet. Leave your personal opinions about other posters out of this
place.

Total number of articles posted to comp.lang.c by Kral Vendar: 1
Of those: number of articles discussing the C language: 0
number of articles hostilely addressing an individual: 1

When Mr Vendar has established a history of posting useful advice about C on
this newsgroup, maybe I'll pay more attention to his opinions. Of course,
by then, he'll have discovered for himself that Tisdale is a troll and,
when he says so, no doubt some newbie or other will attack /him/ for so
doing.

Round and round and round.

--
Richard Heathfield : bi****@eton.powernet.co.uk
"Usenet is a strange place." - Dennis M Ritchie, 29 July 1999.
C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
K&R answers, C books, etc: http://users.powernet.co.uk/eton

[John Bode]

"E. Robert Tisdale" <E.**************@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote in message news:<40************@jpl.nasa.gov>...

C programmers appear to be divided into two camps:

1. unionists who want to draw C and C++ closer together and
2. separatist who want draw C farther away from C++.

The hell? Why do I feel like I'm in Northern Ireland? Or Quebec?
Radical separatist write C codes that C++ compilers won't accept.
Given that C's and C++'s semantics differ in some key areas, sometimes
it's kind of hard to avoid writing C code that doesn't compile as C++.
Radical unionists insist that C will eventually adopt
all of the semantics of C++.
Radical unionists are morons and/or trolls. Why make C exactly like
C++? What is the point in having two separate languages that are
alike? Should C# also adopt all the semantics of C++? How about
Java? Maybe Visual Basic should also be exactly like C++?

Here's a thought: maybe these "radical unionists" should just use C++
and not worry about C at all. I think everyone would be happier.

Does C really have a future separate from C++?
In the long, ignominious history of stupid questions, this one stands
out.
Will all C programmers eventually abandon C for C++?
No.
Or will the race of C programmers eventually die out?

Well, duh. I doubt anyone's going to be programming in C a thousand
years from now.

[Alan Balmer]

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:44:56 -0000, "Kral Vendar" <kr**@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Mr Tisdale is a known troll. Best avoided if possible. I don't know of any

C

experts who consider Mr Tisdale's opinions on C to be worth much (except

in

cases where those opinions accidentally collide with good practice, which
is rare)[1]. If you're new to the language, you'd be far better off

reading

articles by genuine experts, such as Chris Torek, Dan Pop (although the
latter can be a bit acerbic at times), Dik Winter, Jeremy Yallop,

Christian

Bau, Jack Klein, Ben Pfaff, etc.

You should read a good article about net etiquete before posting on usenet.
Leave your personal opinions about other posters out of this place.

Those are not "personal" opinions about posters, they are professional
opinions about what those posters write, and are shared by many
(almost all) the professionals who frequent this newsgroup.

--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
re************************@att.net

[Martin Ambuhl]

Kral Vendar wrote:

You should read a good article about net etiquete before posting on usenet.
Leave your personal opinions about other posters out of this place.

This is surely a mistaken view. ERT is well-known for providing incorrect
"answers" and doing so with the strong position that anyone posting
actually correct answers is a fool. We owe it to unwary posters to warn
them that ERT's views must be *heavily* discounted and that his bluster is
empty wind to hide the fact that he knows nothing about the subject on
which he pretends to be expert.
--
Martin Ambuhl

[Default User]

Richard Heathfield wrote:

Mr Tisdale is a known troll. Best avoided if possible. I don't know of any C
experts who consider Mr Tisdale's opinions on C to be worth much (except in
cases where those opinions accidentally collide with good practice, which
is rare)[1].

In large part, knowlegable C++ people don't consider his opinions on
that language to be worthwhile either. He likes to troll, plain and
simple.

Brian Rodenborn

[E. Robert Tisdale]

Take a look at:

C and C++: Case Studies in Compatibility by Bjarne Stroustrup

http://www.cuj.com/documents/s=8009/cuj0209stroustr/

[Arthur J. O'Dwyer]

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004, Nils Petter Vaskinn wrote:

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 22:56:51 -0800, E. Robert Tisdale wrote:

Or will the race of C programmers eventually die out?

Not in our lifetime.

Brilliant! ;-)

-Arthur,
but please don't feed the trolls anyway

[Les Cargill]

John Bode wrote:

"E. Robert Tisdale" <E.**************@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote in message news:<40************@jpl.nasa.gov>...

C programmers appear to be divided into two camps:

1. unionists who want to draw C and C++ closer together and
2. separatist who want draw C farther away from C++.

The hell? Why do I feel like I'm in Northern Ireland? Or Quebec?

Radical separatist write C codes that C++ compilers won't accept.

Given that C's and C++'s semantics differ in some key areas, sometimes
it's kind of hard to avoid writing C code that doesn't compile as C++.

Radical unionists insist that C will eventually adopt
all of the semantics of C++.

Radical unionists are morons and/or trolls. Why make C exactly like
C++? What is the point in having two separate languages that are
alike? Should C# also adopt all the semantics of C++? How about
Java? Maybe Visual Basic should also be exactly like C++?

Here's a thought: maybe these "radical unionists" should just use C++
and not worry about C at all. I think everyone would be happier.

Does C really have a future separate from C++?

In the long, ignominious history of stupid questions, this one stands
out.

Will all C programmers eventually abandon C for C++?

No.

Or will the race of C programmers eventually die out?

Well, duh. I doubt anyone's going to be programming in C a thousand
years from now.

I bet they are. At least as a target language form some preprocessor.

--
Les Cargill

[August Derleth]

E. Robert Tisdale wrote:

Take a look at:

C and C++: Case Studies in Compatibility by Bjarne Stroustrup

http://www.cuj.com/documents/s=8009/cuj0209stroustr/

You're talking to yourself, Trollsdale. That's not a good sign.

--
My address is yvoregnevna gjragl-guerr gjb-gubhfnaq guerr ng lnubb qbg pbz
Note: Rot13 and convert spelled-out numbers to numerical equivalents.

[Jack Klein]

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:01:11 GMT, Nils Petter Vaskinn
<[e-mail]> wrote in comp.lang.c:

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 22:56:51 -0800, E. Robert Tisdale wrote:

C programmers appear to be divided into two camps:
1. unionists who want to draw C and C++ closer together and 2.
separatist who want draw C farther away from C++.

What makes you think this? I have seen people wanting specific C++
features in C, but I've never seen anyone argue that C should/will evolve
into C++. It won't happen because there is no need for C to become C++
since we've already got C++.

Radical separatist write C codes that C++ compilers won't accept.

Because you compile C as C and not C++. That shouldn't prevent a C++
program from beeing linked against C code, so what is the purpose of
writing C for C++ compilers.

Radical unionists insist that C will eventually adopt all of the
semantics of C++.

What is the point? If they think C should be C++ why don't they simply use
C++?

Does C really have a future separate from C++?

Yes.

Will all C programmers eventually abandon C for C++?

No. They might use both. You don't throw away your screwdriver because
you've got a brand new hammer.

Or will the race of C programmers eventually die out?

Not in our lifetime.

Thanks a lot! Now you've given E. Robert a motive to bump us all off,
to further his evil goals of world domination! :o

--
Jack Klein
Home: http://JK-Technology.Com
FAQs for
comp.lang.c http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
comp.lang.c++ http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/
alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++
http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~a...FAQ-acllc.html

[Dave Vandervies]

In article <bv**********@hercules.btinternet.com>,
Richard Heathfield <bi****@eton.powernet.co.uk> wrote:

[1] A notable exception is the malloc-casting issue where, for reasons of
his own, the well-respected Mr Plauger happens to share an unpopular
opinion with Mr Tisdale.

But note that Mr. Plauger is able to provide (and has provided)
several good reasons for his choice, most of which don't apply to most
C programmers.

Mr. Tisdale has given no indication of being able to do such a thing.
dave

--
Dave Vandervies dj******@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
A US president is more likely to be shot than
a Finnish president is likely to be female.
--pete in comp.lang.c

[Nils Petter Vaskinn]

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 03:47:15 +0000, Jack Klein wrote:

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:01:11 GMT, Nils Petter Vaskinn
<[e-mail]> wrote in comp.lang.c:

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 22:56:51 -0800, E. Robert Tisdale wrote:

> Or will the race of C programmers eventually die out?

Not in our lifetime.

Thanks a lot! Now you've given E. Robert a motive to bump us all off,
to further his evil goals of world domination! :o

He'd have to bump himself off too. ERT has programmed in C, that means ERT
is a C programmer (there seems to be debate over wether he's a good one).
Even if he stops programming in C he will still be a C programmer
(although an inactive one).

No matter what he does Mr Tisdale will not live to see C programmers die
out.

--
NPV

"the large print giveth, and the small print taketh away"
Tom Waits - Step right up

[Nils Petter Vaskinn]

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 17:01:15 -0500, Arthur J. O'Dwyer wrote:

but please don't feed the trolls anyway

For the troll post that a newcomer could mistake for a serious post
someone has to make a serious reply.

A bystander hears someone making an argument that he (the bystander) isn't
able to check the validity of. All the replies from the crowd are of the
"go away, that's stupid" kind. The bystander might walk away believing the
original argument was correct because noone did (or could he might think)
give a serious answer.

Last but not least:
People feed pigeons for entertainment, why are trolls different?
--
NPV

"the large print giveth, and the small print taketh away"
Tom Waits - Step right up

[CBFalconer]

Nils Petter Vaskinn wrote:

.... snip ...
Last but not least:
People feed pigeons for entertainment, why are trolls different?

Conceded, there are remarkable similarities. Both leave filthy
excrement behind, and can do excruciatingly funny things. However
pigeons perform a useful function, they feed the peregrine
falcons, while trolls are totally inedible. Pigeons tend to fight
among themselves, while trolls fight with humans.

--
Chuck F (cb********@yahoo.com) (cb********@worldnet.att.net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address!