Hi all, I just wanted to hear other peoples opinion with regards to
how/if outdated ASP.NET is.
ASP.NET (and ASP.net 2.0) is based on framework from 2000. It was a
great stride forward at that time, the other popular option at that time
was jsp/ejb. Since that time a major paradigm shift caught on,
specifically ajax and Ruby on rails. The most important I feel is the
positive effect open source now has on a framework.
Open source use to conjure memories of shotty shareware/freeware
programs on my first computer; a c64. Its completely different now,
instead of a few people at deciding what should be in the next version,
the community as a whole can effectively vote by choosing which modules
to use. I feel that this allows for some rapid evolution. If I dont like
what the asp.net framework is doing, or even try to understand why its
doing what its doing, I'm basically SOL; i just have to work around the
problem. Hell, I went through a lot of pain to figure out how to set up
my machine to debug through the framework in c#. Regardless, I cant just
change the framework as I see fit; and then post it to the community to
be told I'm a genius or stupid.
Sure ASP.NET AJAX now allows AJAX. Correct me if I'm wrong here but its
far more expensive than other frameworks. It seems like there is a lot
of complexity to get ajax to work in the asp.net framework. This
complexity doesn't exist in other frameworks. Not to mention there seems
to be some quirky issues with asp.net ajax (which might be my fault due
to improper use).
Thoughts?
18  4437 
I don't think so for a few reasons.
ASP.NET has some sophisticated underpinnings: it asks that you become a
marginally competant programmer, understand objects/OO, and appreciate
abstraction. Forget newbie ease-of-use as a selling point: that's not
ASP.NET's forte. The ease of use comes later in careers, when you appreciate
ASP.NET's modularity, encapsulation, and ability to parameterize controls in
sophisticated ways. I'm doing a major collection of redesigns right now and
the ability to break down the whole problem into a bunch of more-or-less
self.contained user controls is just so cool.
Ruby on Rails is one ORM-ish framework that works well for a lot of people.
Once you understand OO reasonably well, and sort-of master a tool like
VS.NET, bolting on your own ORM framework and toolset is easy enough. I used
an ORM framework called dOOdads for awhile, and now a successor called
EntitySpaces that builts hierarchical "mappings" against your data
structures. Both are awesome. Neither were designed as a part of ASP.NET,
but the point is that the extensibility and flexibilty of the framework and
the sophistication of tools like VS.NET made it possible for someone to add
on ORM stuff in a useful way.
Another data point: look at tools like Telerik, Inc's control set for
ASP.NET. I haven't seen anything quite like them on any other web
application framework: they're brilliant. The ongoing development of
toolsets like Telerik's keeps the platform current.
Another data point: they put out the 2.0 release last year, which makes the
whole five-year-old discussion sort of moot. 2.0 added a lot of new stuff,
especially in terms of roles and personalization.
ASP.NET doesn't cost anything, I don't know where you got the idea it did.
Some more play may be in order.
-KF
"Joe (MCAD)" <jo***************@yahoo.comwrote in message
news:bZ*******************@newssvr13.news.prodigy. net...
Sure ASP.NET AJAX now allows AJAX.
That's right.
Correct me if I'm wrong here but its far more expensive than other
frameworks.
Expensive in terms of what? Certainly not money, as the .NET Framework is
free. Similarly, if you don't need the "full" versions, Microsoft provides
"Express" versions of its development tools, also for free: http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/vwd/ http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/ex...l/default.aspx
Obviously you will need a copy of Windows, preferably XP Pro, on which to
install them, and a copy of Windows Server on which to deploy any
application you create with them...
It seems like there is a lot of complexity to get ajax to work in the
asp.net framework.
Not at all - a couple of additional lines of code are usually all that's
required. Have a look at something like this: http://anthemdotnet.com/
"ASP.NET (and ASP.net 2.0) is based on framework from 2000"
--No, ASP.NET 2.0 is based on current framework and version 3.0 is already
available, circa 2006.
"The most important I feel is the positive effect open source now has on a
framework"
-- A quick look at sourceforge.net, Codeplex or google code reveals that
there is huge open-source support for the .NET Framework. There is also
strong community support from developers and users about what goes into the
framework. Just because the "product" isn't open source doesn't mean that
Microsoft does not listen to users.
Re AJAX, Microsoft invented it in 1998 - its properly referred to as "Remote
Scripting". Its really platform independent and relies on XMLHTTP Request
object that is now built into all modern browsers.
As Mark pointed out, there are numerous simplified "AJAX" Frameworks for
..NET, nobody is holding a gun to your head about which to use.
Currently, about 46% of the Fortune 1000 companies use .NET for enterprise
level applications. You could dispute the statistics as being biased, but the
fact remains this is a very successful platform with broad support and
innovation.
Peter
--
Site: http://www.eggheadcafe.com
UnBlog: http://petesbloggerama.blogspot.com
Short urls & more: http://ittyurl.net
Mark Rae wrote:
"Joe (MCAD)" <jo***************@yahoo.comwrote in message
news:bZ*******************@newssvr13.news.prodigy. net...
>Sure ASP.NET AJAX now allows AJAX.
That's right.
>Correct me if I'm wrong here but its far more expensive than other
frameworks.
Expensive in terms of what? Certainly not money, as the .NET Framework is
free. Similarly, if you don't need the "full" versions, Microsoft provides
"Express" versions of its development tools, also for free:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/vwd/
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/ex...l/default.aspx
In terms of performance. Using the updatepanel... If we use the
viewstate (sometimes we dont have a choice) its sent on every ajax
request; big problem when your viewstate is 10k+ but the minimum
necessary is <1-2k. Makes sense having to always send the viewstate
since other server controls might have to fire off events. Thats the
next issue, the server has to process many other controls that
potentially have no interaction with the action that caused the request;
wasting processing time doing unnecessary rendering, and prerendering,
and databinding...
>It seems like there is a lot of complexity to get ajax to work in the
asp.net framework.
Not at all - a couple of additional lines of code are usually all that's
required. Have a look at something like this: http://anthemdotnet.com/
Right, using the updatepanel is pretty easy, just a few lines of code.
But those few lines of code are doing something far more complex behind
the scene, and that comes at a cost.
ASP.NET (and ASP.net 2.0) is based on framework from 2000. It was a great
stride forward at that time, the other popular option at that time was
jsp/ejb. Since that time a major paradigm shift caught on, specifically
ajax and Ruby on rails. The most important I feel is the positive effect
open source now has on a framework.
From a technical standpoint, I'm really not skilled enough to say.
But from a 'vibe' standpoint, yes, It seems that asp.net is outdated. But,
for that matter, I guess it seems that many of the systems are outdated by
that defnition.
If it's not open source, and not PHP or ROR, then it just doesn't have that
web 2.0 'vibe'.
Sure ASP.NET AJAX now allows AJAX. Correct me if I'm wrong here but its
far more expensive than other frameworks.
ATLAS is free. ASP.net is free.
IIS isn't, of course.
It seems like there is a lot of complexity to get ajax to work in the
asp.net framework. This complexity doesn't exist in other frameworks. Not
to mention there seems to be some quirky issues with asp.net ajax (which
might be my fault due to improper use).
I think the big thing (and this is my impression) is that MS's framework is
all about integration.
IIS integrated with MSSQAL integrated with ASP.net integrated with VS.net
integrated with reporting services integrated with Sharepoint, etc.
They've built this great, robust system, and targeted it at enteprise
application developers.
And for that, I have to say, it works great.
But it's not as ideal for the next web2.0-I-hope-we-get-bought-by-google web
site for a number of reasons:
- it's heavy. ATLAS is a beast. Not a big deal on an intranet. Perhaps a
big deal on the web at large
- it's not free. Startups like free (as in open source)
- the community is a bit lopsided (mostly fellow entrprise software
devlopors)
So, yea, I guess I feel the same way. I feel a little bit out of the loop
sticking with ASP.net
-Darrel
Expensive in terms of what? Certainly not money, as the .NET Framework is
free.
That's a bit of a marketing myth.
You can't just 'run' the .net framwork.
Yea, it's free, but you need IIS. IIS is free, provided you've purchased
Windows.
The dev tools are nice. And are now increasingly free. But you still need a
licensed copy of Windows to run them.
So, compared to something like ROR or PHP, where you truly don't have to
spend money on any softwarew on either end (dev or serving) ASP.net isn't
truly the same level of 'free'.
-Darrel
Currently, about 46% of the Fortune 1000 companies use .NET for enterprise
level applications. You could dispute the statistics as being biased, but
the
fact remains this is a very successful platform with broad support and
innovation.
I'm not arguing that there aren't innovative parts to ASP.net
However, I frown upon the 'market share = quality' line of reasoning so
often tossed about.
-Darrel
"darrel" <no*****@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:O9**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>Expensive in terms of what? Certainly not money, as the .NET Framework is
free.
That's a bit of a marketing myth.
You can't just 'run' the .net framwork.
Yea, it's free, but you need IIS. IIS is free, provided you've purchased
Windows.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourc...ASP%2eNET+Mono
The dev tools are nice. And are now increasingly free. But you still need
a licensed copy of Windows to run them.
That's true, though you may as well say that no software is *truly* free
because you still need a PC to run it on...
On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 01:39:19 GMT, Joe (MCAD) wrote:
Hi all, I just wanted to hear other peoples opinion with regards to
how/if outdated ASP.NET is.
It's not.
ASP.NET (and ASP.net 2.0) is based on framework from 2000. It was a
great stride forward at that time, the other popular option at that time
was jsp/ejb. Since that time a major paradigm shift caught on,
specifically ajax and Ruby on rails. The most important I feel is the
positive effect open source now has on a framework.
Ruby on Rails solves one specific problem pretty well, and that's the
situation where you really don't care about the data model. You just want
something to serialize your objects to and are willing to let the framework
do the work for you.
It's not quite so good (though certainly usable) for what 95% of the rest
of the web developers need (note web developers, not web designers) which
is the ability to map objects to a pre-defined and pre-architected data
model, often generations old. In effect, you lose all the 'neatness' of
RoR and are stuck with a framework that wasn't designed to meet your needs.
RoR has served it's purpose, though, and a number of third party Rails-like
projects have sprung up for various languages and platforms, including
ASP.NET. You can look at the Castle Project for a good example. It's also
shook Microsoft enough that they've developed their own ORM system in
Visual Studio Orcas (the next version), with a lot of ruby-like extensions
to C#. As more modern languages adopt RoR features, ruby will likely fall
into disuse, since it's a very special purpose language.
As for Open Source, there's plenty of third party open source .net projects
out there. The afore mentioned Castle project is one of them. And
understanding the framework is relatively easy when using any of the freely
available .net decompilers out there, like reflector.
Sure ASP.NET AJAX now allows AJAX. Correct me if I'm wrong here but its
far more expensive than other frameworks. It seems like there is a lot
of complexity to get ajax to work in the asp.net framework. This
complexity doesn't exist in other frameworks. Not to mention there seems
to be some quirky issues with asp.net ajax (which might be my fault due
to improper use).
ASP.NET AJAX isn't the only AJAX solution out there. It's really designed
more for intranets than for lean web usage. One thing to remember is that
ASP.NET can be as lean or as complex as you want to make it.
To say that ASP.Net is outdated is to say that an entire segment of the .Net
platform, and perhaps of the Internet is outdated. ASP.Net is much more than
a programming technology for creating dynamic web pages. It is a server-side
HTTP technology that supports a whole plethora of sub-technologies,
including Ajax and Web Services. They all have one thing in common: They
handle HTTP requests, and return HTTP responses to a client software.
As for Open Source, no doubt, it has its' place in the world. But it is
nothing new, and it will never replace Microsoft technogies, or any other
major non-Open Source vendor technologies. There is something to be said for
using products and technologies that easily interconnect, and that is what
Microsoft has been about for as long as I've known them.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Bit Player http://unclechutney.blogspot.com
A pea rants as candy be sieving.
"darrel" <no*****@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:u4**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>ASP.NET (and ASP.net 2.0) is based on framework from 2000. It was a great
stride forward at that time, the other popular option at that time was
jsp/ejb. Since that time a major paradigm shift caught on, specifically
ajax and Ruby on rails. The most important I feel is the positive effect
open source now has on a framework.
From a technical standpoint, I'm really not skilled enough to say.
But from a 'vibe' standpoint, yes, It seems that asp.net is outdated. But,
for that matter, I guess it seems that many of the systems are outdated by
that defnition.
If it's not open source, and not PHP or ROR, then it just doesn't have
that web 2.0 'vibe'.
>Sure ASP.NET AJAX now allows AJAX. Correct me if I'm wrong here but its
far more expensive than other frameworks.
ATLAS is free. ASP.net is free.
IIS isn't, of course.
>It seems like there is a lot of complexity to get ajax to work in the
asp.net framework. This complexity doesn't exist in other frameworks. Not
to mention there seems to be some quirky issues with asp.net ajax (which
might be my fault due to improper use).
I think the big thing (and this is my impression) is that MS's framework
is all about integration.
IIS integrated with MSSQAL integrated with ASP.net integrated with VS.net
integrated with reporting services integrated with Sharepoint, etc.
They've built this great, robust system, and targeted it at enteprise
application developers.
And for that, I have to say, it works great.
But it's not as ideal for the next web2.0-I-hope-we-get-bought-by-google
web site for a number of reasons:
- it's heavy. ATLAS is a beast. Not a big deal on an intranet. Perhaps a
big deal on the web at large
- it's not free. Startups like free (as in open source)
- the community is a bit lopsided (mostly fellow entrprise software
devlopors)
So, yea, I guess I feel the same way. I feel a little bit out of the loop
sticking with ASP.net
-Darrel
>Yea, it's free, but you need IIS. IIS is free, provided you've purchased
>Windows.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourc...ASP%2eNET+Mono
Mono is a nice idea, but again, not the same thing.
>The dev tools are nice. And are now increasingly free. But you still need
a licensed copy of Windows to run them.
That's true, though you may as well say that no software is *truly* free
because you still need a PC to run it on...
Yep. My only point is that you can not equate ASP.net with Open Source
options without pointing out the cost differences which are real for some.
-Darrel
As for Open Source, no doubt, it has its' place in the world. But it is
nothing new, and it will never replace Microsoft technogies
ASP.net is HUGE in internal corporate intranets. When it comes to the hot,
new web 2.0 stuff, though, it's WAY behind in terms of market
share/penetration.
It's not an outdated technology, but rather has an outdated public
relations. ;o)
major non-Open Source vendor technologies. There is something to be said
for using products and technologies that easily interconnect, and that is
what Microsoft has been about for as long as I've known them.
Yep. I completely agree. That's why they're huge in the corporate sector.
I think there are parts at MS that realize this. The ATLAS teams seems quite
aware of this, for starters, and is working on shaking that reputation a
bit.
-Darrel
Kevin Spencer wrote:
To say that ASP.Net is outdated is to say that an entire segment of the .Net
platform, and perhaps of the Internet is outdated. ASP.Net is much more than
a programming technology for creating dynamic web pages. It is a server-side
HTTP technology that supports a whole plethora of sub-technologies,
including Ajax and Web Services. They all have one thing in common: They
handle HTTP requests, and return HTTP responses to a client software.
Point taken. Therefore, my question was specific to the generation of
html/javascript which albeit incorrectly is often refered to as asp.net.
darrel wrote:
>As for Open Source, no doubt, it has its' place in the world. But it is
nothing new, and it will never replace Microsoft technogies
ASP.net is HUGE in internal corporate intranets. When it comes to the hot,
new web 2.0 stuff, though, it's WAY behind in terms of market
share/penetration.
It's not an outdated technology, but rather has an outdated public
relations. ;o)
I disagree that it will never/cant happen, it almost already happened
when MS wasn't paying attention to the Internet sector in the '90's.
Yes, asp.net is perfect for intranets, now ROR seems to be a pretty good
fit too. Intranets care more for a rich experience at low cost (asp.net)
than a low bandwidth cutting edge at high cost (custom/other). What I
see occurring is that the custom/other category is beginning to become
cheaper and easier to use, the interconnectivity advantage as others are
mentioning that has made MS sooooo much easier to use (and it is!) is
beginning to fade.
MS will come there too, because Web 2.0 is nothing but offering more
services through web basically making the distributed platform work through
internet and ASP.NET has all the items that we can create a web 2.0
application and Live Environement are the one you can take it as example. No
one has yet built a greate Web 2.0 Application apart from the Blogs and
Message Boards which are just a piece of techinical stuffs and nothing to do
with the platform.
I strongly beleive MS will be the one reliable source that developers can
rely on in future. Look for WinFx i.e .NET 3.0 we will have plenty of
stuffs.
Thanks
Dhanraj
"darrel" <no*****@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:uA**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>As for Open Source, no doubt, it has its' place in the world. But it is
nothing new, and it will never replace Microsoft technogies
ASP.net is HUGE in internal corporate intranets. When it comes to the hot,
new web 2.0 stuff, though, it's WAY behind in terms of market
share/penetration.
It's not an outdated technology, but rather has an outdated public
relations. ;o)
>major non-Open Source vendor technologies. There is something to be said
for using products and technologies that easily interconnect, and that is
what Microsoft has been about for as long as I've known them.
Yep. I completely agree. That's why they're huge in the corporate sector.
I think there are parts at MS that realize this. The ATLAS teams seems
quite aware of this, for starters, and is working on shaking that
reputation a bit.
-Darrel
ASP.NET is doomed. Its a sad work around that trys to simplify web
development - but by hiding the http workings it actually makes
development more complicated. Besides - do you really want to learn a
technology that changes as fast as you can learn it. How many times do
you want to "relearn" to do the same fucking things over and over
again? Stick with the open source stuff, its the only viable option.
George
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 01:39:19 GMT, Joe (MCAD) wrote:
Hi all, I just wanted to hear other peoples opinion with regards to
how/if outdated ASP.NET is.
It's not.
ASP.NET (and ASP.net 2.0) is based on framework from 2000. It was a
great stride forward at that time, the other popular option at that time
was jsp/ejb. Since that time a major paradigm shift caught on,
specifically ajax and Ruby on rails. The most important I feel is the
positive effect open source now has on a framework.
Ruby on Rails solves one specific problem pretty well, and that's the
situation where you really don't care about the data model. You just want
something to serialize your objects to and are willing to let the framework
do the work for you.
It's not quite so good (though certainly usable) for what 95% of the rest
of the web developers need (note web developers, not web designers) which
is the ability to map objects to a pre-defined and pre-architected data
model, often generations old. In effect, you lose all the 'neatness' of
RoR and are stuck with a framework that wasn't designed to meet your needs.
RoR has served it's purpose, though, and a number of third party Rails-like
projects have sprung up for various languages and platforms, including
ASP.NET. You can look at the Castle Project for a good example. It's also
shook Microsoft enough that they've developed their own ORM system in
Visual Studio Orcas (the next version), with a lot of ruby-like extensions
to C#. As more modern languages adopt RoR features, ruby will likely fall
into disuse, since it's a very special purpose language.
As for Open Source, there's plenty of third party open source .net projects
out there. The afore mentioned Castle project is one of them. And
understanding the framework is relatively easy when using any of the freely
available .net decompilers out there, like reflector.
Sure ASP.NET AJAX now allows AJAX. Correct me if I'm wrong here but its
far more expensive than other frameworks. It seems like there is a lot
of complexity to get ajax to work in the asp.net framework. This
complexity doesn't exist in other frameworks. Not to mention there seems
to be some quirky issues with asp.net ajax (which might be my fault due
to improper use).
ASP.NET AJAX isn't the only AJAX solution out there. It's really designed
more for intranets than for lean web usage. One thing to remember is that
ASP.NET can be as lean or as complex as you want to make it.
On 3 Jan 2007 23:56:19 -0800, ge************@yahoo.com.sg wrote:
ASP.NET is doomed. Its a sad work around that trys to simplify web
development - but by hiding the http workings it actually makes
development more complicated. Besides - do you really want to learn a
technology that changes as fast as you can learn it. How many times do
you want to "relearn" to do the same fucking things over and over
again? Stick with the open source stuff, its the only viable option.
Yes, because open source never re-invents the weel either, right? JSP,
Ruby on Rails, PHP, blah blah blah... Just when you learn one, another
technology becomes popular.
You're in the wrong industry if you're afraid of change.
Not afraid - bored of needless.
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
On 3 Jan 2007 23:56:19 -0800, ge************@yahoo.com.sg wrote:
ASP.NET is doomed. Its a sad work around that trys to simplify web
development - but by hiding the http workings it actually makes
development more complicated. Besides - do you really want to learn a
technology that changes as fast as you can learn it. How many times do
you want to "relearn" to do the same fucking things over and over
again? Stick with the open source stuff, its the only viable option.
Yes, because open source never re-invents the weel either, right? JSP,
Ruby on Rails, PHP, blah blah blah... Just when you learn one, another
technology becomes popular.
You're in the wrong industry if you're afraid of change.
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