Is MCAD.NET cert based on VS2003 still worth to take?

[andy lim]

hello all,

i developed several ASP.NET web application with VS2003.
i'm preparing myself to take an exam on the path to MCAD.NET.
then, the VS2005/.NET framework 2.0 (beta) came in to my hand. after i
played around for some time with it, i found that VS2005/.NET 2.0 includes
so many built-in functionalities that we need to built from scratch with
VS2003. for example: user authorization/authentication, datagrid
formatting/sorting/paging etc.
the bottom line is: developing with VS2005/.NET 2.0 can makes my development
life much easier than using VS2003/.NET 1.1

can someone tell me, is it still worth my effort and time to take that
expensive certification exam, if it would only 2 years or so to become
obsolete? or, should i better wait till Microsoft officially replaced all
MCAD.NET to conform with its new release (in VS2005/.NET 2.0)?

i really feels like i'm on a crossroad here, and need some insights from you
all...

thanks in advance,
andy

[Kevin Spencer]

I am a team leader and Senior Application Developer for my company. I
participate in the hiring process. I couldn't care less about the
certificates that prospective employees have. A certificate proves only that
one can cram for and pass an exam. As a programmer, I've never had to take
an exam in order to create an application. Therefore, the ability to take
exams is not a requirement for software developers. Writing solid code is.
So, if you want to work for me, you've got to show me the money (i.e. code).
On the other hand, if you want to work for a beaurocratic dinosaur, get as
many certificates as you can, and best of luck to you.

--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
..Net Developer
Microsoft MVP
I get paid good money to
solve puzzles for a living

"andy lim" <ad***@infoteknika.com> wrote in message
news:eK**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

hello all,

i developed several ASP.NET web application with VS2003.
i'm preparing myself to take an exam on the path to MCAD.NET.
then, the VS2005/.NET framework 2.0 (beta) came in to my hand. after i
played around for some time with it, i found that VS2005/.NET 2.0 includes
so many built-in functionalities that we need to built from scratch with
VS2003. for example: user authorization/authentication, datagrid
formatting/sorting/paging etc.
the bottom line is: developing with VS2005/.NET 2.0 can makes my development life much easier than using VS2003/.NET 1.1

can someone tell me, is it still worth my effort and time to take that
expensive certification exam, if it would only 2 years or so to become
obsolete? or, should i better wait till Microsoft officially replaced all
MCAD.NET to conform with its new release (in VS2005/.NET 2.0)?

i really feels like i'm on a crossroad here, and need some insights from you all...

thanks in advance,
andy

[Patrick.O.Ige]

I agree with you Kevin!
But it isn't a RULE!
"Kevin Spencer" wrote:

I am a team leader and Senior Application Developer for my company. I
participate in the hiring process. I couldn't care less about the
certificates that prospective employees have. A certificate proves only that
one can cram for and pass an exam. As a programmer, I've never had to take
an exam in order to create an application. Therefore, the ability to take
exams is not a requirement for software developers. Writing solid code is.
So, if you want to work for me, you've got to show me the money (i.e. code).
On the other hand, if you want to work for a beaurocratic dinosaur, get as
many certificates as you can, and best of luck to you.

--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
..Net Developer
Microsoft MVP
I get paid good money to
solve puzzles for a living

"andy lim" <ad***@infoteknika.com> wrote in message
news:eK**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

hello all,

i developed several ASP.NET web application with VS2003.
i'm preparing myself to take an exam on the path to MCAD.NET.
then, the VS2005/.NET framework 2.0 (beta) came in to my hand. after i
played around for some time with it, i found that VS2005/.NET 2.0 includes
so many built-in functionalities that we need to built from scratch with
VS2003. for example: user authorization/authentication, datagrid
formatting/sorting/paging etc.
the bottom line is: developing with VS2005/.NET 2.0 can makes my

development

life much easier than using VS2003/.NET 1.1

can someone tell me, is it still worth my effort and time to take that
expensive certification exam, if it would only 2 years or so to become
obsolete? or, should i better wait till Microsoft officially replaced all
MCAD.NET to conform with its new release (in VS2005/.NET 2.0)?

i really feels like i'm on a crossroad here, and need some insights from

you

all...

thanks in advance,
andy

[Shawn B.]

I'm a senior developer writing the accounting system for an insurance
software company, and have been a senior developer for other enterprises in
the past. I am quite intimate with .NET / ASP.NET / C++ and the VB6 COM
world, know how to design software very well that scales, performs, easy to
maintain, and maximizes code-reuse. I don't have a college degree nor do I
have any certifications but I do have 8 years of professional experience and
15 years total of programming experience. However, I am working on my MCSD
right now not so much for future employment (I'm currently employed and
happy) but as an educational tool, more or less. I am very familiar with
most of the content required by the MCSD and have the experience to back it
up, but some of the "finer" points I've picked up from studying for the exam
and the exam forces you to have to formalize your knowledge of the material
covered.

I can agree with the sentiment that certifications prove nothing and that
code speaks louder than words. I've had my share of cleaning up horrible
code from other people (and my own, I haven't always been perfect and still
am not) and having to teach people from India and Pakistan who have multiple
masters degrees in computer science math and physics that don't know how to
debug a C# application or a VB6 component, so we can argue that education
isn't everything either. I've worked with others who are "self-taught" who
make for headaches on the team and those who are excellent performers. You
just can't know until you meet the person and probe them in an interview for
thier abilities and their problem solving skills.

But to hold a bias AGAINST people who have a certification isn't a good
thing, it really cheats the a person who may be fully-qualified for the
position and the company. I would hate to think that because I took the
time to earn a certification in a field that I'm very well experienced and
competent in would actually deny me a position somewhere because of an
overly zealous bias, as well as I would hate to think that I got the job
only because of the certification. But I know how the world works and that
there is a hard sentiment against certification holders but personally, I
don't think they indicate one way or the next what the person is capable of,
and should be treated as such.

Some people get them for an easy oppurtunity, others like myself get them to
help reinforce what I already know from experience and extensive trial and
error. Why should I be denied employment because of it?
Thanks,
Shawn


"Kevin Spencer" <ks******@takempis.com> wrote in message
news:el**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

I am a team leader and Senior Application Developer for my company. I
participate in the hiring process. I couldn't care less about the
certificates that prospective employees have. A certificate proves only that one can cram for and pass an exam. As a programmer, I've never had to take
an exam in order to create an application. Therefore, the ability to take
exams is not a requirement for software developers. Writing solid code is.
So, if you want to work for me, you've got to show me the money (i.e. code). On the other hand, if you want to work for a beaurocratic dinosaur, get as
many certificates as you can, and best of luck to you.

--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
.Net Developer
Microsoft MVP
I get paid good money to
solve puzzles for a living

"andy lim" <ad***@infoteknika.com> wrote in message
news:eK**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

hello all,

i developed several ASP.NET web application with VS2003.
i'm preparing myself to take an exam on the path to MCAD.NET.
then, the VS2005/.NET framework 2.0 (beta) came in to my hand. after i
played around for some time with it, i found that VS2005/.NET 2.0 includes so many built-in functionalities that we need to built from scratch with
VS2003. for example: user authorization/authentication, datagrid
formatting/sorting/paging etc.
the bottom line is: developing with VS2005/.NET 2.0 can makes my

development

life much easier than using VS2003/.NET 1.1

can someone tell me, is it still worth my effort and time to take that
expensive certification exam, if it would only 2 years or so to become
obsolete? or, should i better wait till Microsoft officially replaced all MCAD.NET to conform with its new release (in VS2005/.NET 2.0)?

i really feels like i'm on a crossroad here, and need some insights from

you

all...

thanks in advance,
andy

[Kevin Spencer]

Hi Shawn,

I hope you didn't consider my post to indicate that I would count
certificates AGAINST anyone. I just don't count them at all. Microsoft
consultants, for example, are encouraged to get as many certificates as they
can, and for obvious reasons, as they work for all kinds of companies, some
of them quite large and beaurocratic. Having a certificate could not
logically be held against anyone; it certainly shows no lack of character.
However, neither is it an accurate indicator of the person's programming
ability. Their code certainly IS.

--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
..Net Developer
Microsoft MVP
I get paid good money to
solve puzzles for a living

"Shawn B." <le****@html.com> wrote in message
news:uW**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

I'm a senior developer writing the accounting system for an insurance
software company, and have been a senior developer for other enterprises in the past. I am quite intimate with .NET / ASP.NET / C++ and the VB6 COM
world, know how to design software very well that scales, performs, easy to maintain, and maximizes code-reuse. I don't have a college degree nor do I have any certifications but I do have 8 years of professional experience and 15 years total of programming experience. However, I am working on my MCSD right now not so much for future employment (I'm currently employed and
happy) but as an educational tool, more or less. I am very familiar with
most of the content required by the MCSD and have the experience to back it up, but some of the "finer" points I've picked up from studying for the exam and the exam forces you to have to formalize your knowledge of the material covered.

I can agree with the sentiment that certifications prove nothing and that
code speaks louder than words. I've had my share of cleaning up horrible
code from other people (and my own, I haven't always been perfect and still am not) and having to teach people from India and Pakistan who have multiple masters degrees in computer science math and physics that don't know how to debug a C# application or a VB6 component, so we can argue that education
isn't everything either. I've worked with others who are "self-taught" who make for headaches on the team and those who are excellent performers. You just can't know until you meet the person and probe them in an interview for thier abilities and their problem solving skills.

But to hold a bias AGAINST people who have a certification isn't a good
thing, it really cheats the a person who may be fully-qualified for the
position and the company. I would hate to think that because I took the
time to earn a certification in a field that I'm very well experienced and
competent in would actually deny me a position somewhere because of an
overly zealous bias, as well as I would hate to think that I got the job
only because of the certification. But I know how the world works and that there is a hard sentiment against certification holders but personally, I
don't think they indicate one way or the next what the person is capable of, and should be treated as such.

Some people get them for an easy oppurtunity, others like myself get them to help reinforce what I already know from experience and extensive trial and
error. Why should I be denied employment because of it?
Thanks,
Shawn


"Kevin Spencer" <ks******@takempis.com> wrote in message
news:el**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

I am a team leader and Senior Application Developer for my company. I
participate in the hiring process. I couldn't care less about the
certificates that prospective employees have. A certificate proves only

that

one can cram for and pass an exam. As a programmer, I've never had to take

an exam in order to create an application. Therefore, the ability to take exams is not a requirement for software developers. Writing solid code is. So, if you want to work for me, you've got to show me the money (i.e.

code).

On the other hand, if you want to work for a beaurocratic dinosaur, get as many certificates as you can, and best of luck to you.

--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
.Net Developer
Microsoft MVP
I get paid good money to
solve puzzles for a living

"andy lim" <ad***@infoteknika.com> wrote in message
news:eK**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

hello all,

i developed several ASP.NET web application with VS2003.
i'm preparing myself to take an exam on the path to MCAD.NET.
then, the VS2005/.NET framework 2.0 (beta) came in to my hand. after i
played around for some time with it, i found that VS2005/.NET 2.0 includes so many built-in functionalities that we need to built from scratch with VS2003. for example: user authorization/authentication, datagrid
formatting/sorting/paging etc.
the bottom line is: developing with VS2005/.NET 2.0 can makes my

development

life much easier than using VS2003/.NET 1.1

can someone tell me, is it still worth my effort and time to take that
expensive certification exam, if it would only 2 years or so to become
obsolete? or, should i better wait till Microsoft officially replaced all MCAD.NET to conform with its new release (in VS2005/.NET 2.0)?

i really feels like i'm on a crossroad here, and need some insights

from you

all...

thanks in advance,
andy

[Shawn B.]

Much agreed.
Thanks,
Shawn
"Kevin Spencer" <ks******@takempis.com> wrote in message
news:uz**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

Hi Shawn,

I hope you didn't consider my post to indicate that I would count
certificates AGAINST anyone. I just don't count them at all. Microsoft
consultants, for example, are encouraged to get as many certificates as they can, and for obvious reasons, as they work for all kinds of companies, some of them quite large and beaurocratic. Having a certificate could not
logically be held against anyone; it certainly shows no lack of character.
However, neither is it an accurate indicator of the person's programming
ability. Their code certainly IS.

--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
.Net Developer
Microsoft MVP
I get paid good money to
solve puzzles for a living

"Shawn B." <le****@html.com> wrote in message
news:uW**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

I'm a senior developer writing the accounting system for an insurance
software company, and have been a senior developer for other enterprises in

the past. I am quite intimate with .NET / ASP.NET / C++ and the VB6 COM
world, know how to design software very well that scales, performs, easy

to

maintain, and maximizes code-reuse. I don't have a college degree nor do I

have any certifications but I do have 8 years of professional experience and

15 years total of programming experience. However, I am working on my

MCSD

right now not so much for future employment (I'm currently employed and
happy) but as an educational tool, more or less. I am very familiar with most of the content required by the MCSD and have the experience to back

it

up, but some of the "finer" points I've picked up from studying for the

exam

and the exam forces you to have to formalize your knowledge of the

material

covered.

I can agree with the sentiment that certifications prove nothing and that code speaks louder than words. I've had my share of cleaning up horrible code from other people (and my own, I haven't always been perfect and

still

am not) and having to teach people from India and Pakistan who have

multiple

masters degrees in computer science math and physics that don't know how

to

debug a C# application or a VB6 component, so we can argue that education isn't everything either. I've worked with others who are "self-taught"

who

make for headaches on the team and those who are excellent performers.

You

just can't know until you meet the person and probe them in an interview

for

thier abilities and their problem solving skills.

But to hold a bias AGAINST people who have a certification isn't a good
thing, it really cheats the a person who may be fully-qualified for the
position and the company. I would hate to think that because I took the
time to earn a certification in a field that I'm very well experienced and competent in would actually deny me a position somewhere because of an
overly zealous bias, as well as I would hate to think that I got the job
only because of the certification. But I know how the world works and

that

there is a hard sentiment against certification holders but personally, I don't think they indicate one way or the next what the person is capable

of,

and should be treated as such.

Some people get them for an easy oppurtunity, others like myself get them to

help reinforce what I already know from experience and extensive trial

and error. Why should I be denied employment because of it?
Thanks,
Shawn


"Kevin Spencer" <ks******@takempis.com> wrote in message
news:el**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

I am a team leader and Senior Application Developer for my company. I
participate in the hiring process. I couldn't care less about the
certificates that prospective employees have. A certificate proves only

that

one can cram for and pass an exam. As a programmer, I've never had to take an exam in order to create an application. Therefore, the ability to take exams is not a requirement for software developers. Writing solid code is. So, if you want to work for me, you've got to show me the money (i.e.

code).

On the other hand, if you want to work for a beaurocratic dinosaur,

get as many certificates as you can, and best of luck to you.

--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
.Net Developer
Microsoft MVP
I get paid good money to
solve puzzles for a living

"andy lim" <ad***@infoteknika.com> wrote in message
news:eK**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> hello all,
>
> i developed several ASP.NET web application with VS2003.
> i'm preparing myself to take an exam on the path to MCAD.NET.
> then, the VS2005/.NET framework 2.0 (beta) came in to my hand. after

i > played around for some time with it, i found that VS2005/.NET 2.0

includes

> so many built-in functionalities that we need to built from scratch

with > VS2003. for example: user authorization/authentication, datagrid
> formatting/sorting/paging etc.
> the bottom line is: developing with VS2005/.NET 2.0 can makes my
development
> life much easier than using VS2003/.NET 1.1
>
> can someone tell me, is it still worth my effort and time to take that > expensive certification exam, if it would only 2 years or so to become > obsolete? or, should i better wait till Microsoft officially

replaced all

> MCAD.NET to conform with its new release (in VS2005/.NET 2.0)?
>
> i really feels like i'm on a crossroad here, and need some insights

from you
> all...
>
> thanks in advance,
> andy
>
>
>

[Mark Rae]

"Kevin Spencer" <ks******@takempis.com> wrote in message
news:el**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

I am a team leader and Senior Application Developer for my company. I
participate in the hiring process. I couldn't care less about the
certificates that prospective employees have. A certificate proves only
that
one can cram for and pass an exam. As a programmer, I've never had to take
an exam in order to create an application. Therefore, the ability to take
exams is not a requirement for software developers. Writing solid code is.
So, if you want to work for me, you've got to show me the money (i.e.
code).
On the other hand, if you want to work for a beaurocratic dinosaur, get as
many certificates as you can, and best of luck to you.

That is without doubt the best take on MCP certification I've heard in a
long time. I've always viewed such things like driving lessons - they don't
teach you how to be a good driver, they just teach you how to pass your
driving test.

[Andy Lim]

thanks guys,

yeah, i got your point. i agree with you, that as a developer we don't
really need any credentials just to proof our capabilities to a prospective
client. i agree that all it takes is how we solve the client's problem into
a sound, working solutions that can help them running their business.

indeed, all they (prospective clients) needs is just how our solution can
solve their problem, effectively and efficiently.
i have several friends that works for some 'beaurocratic dinosaurs' (what a
name...:) that conferred several high-profile graduate degree and yet can't
have any idea
how to build what might a simple IT solution for me.

anyway, thanks a lot for your opinion. i appreciate it.

regards,
andy

[txghia58]

But it sure is nice to have if you don't have much experience on your
resume'. It seems like a fact of life that you will need it to get past the
HR person that recieves hundreds of different applications.

"Shawn B." wrote:

Much agreed.
Thanks,
Shawn
"Kevin Spencer" <ks******@takempis.com> wrote in message
news:uz**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

Hi Shawn,

I hope you didn't consider my post to indicate that I would count
certificates AGAINST anyone. I just don't count them at all. Microsoft
consultants, for example, are encouraged to get as many certificates as

they

can, and for obvious reasons, as they work for all kinds of companies,

some

of them quite large and beaurocratic. Having a certificate could not
logically be held against anyone; it certainly shows no lack of character.
However, neither is it an accurate indicator of the person's programming
ability. Their code certainly IS.

--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
.Net Developer
Microsoft MVP
I get paid good money to
solve puzzles for a living

"Shawn B." <le****@html.com> wrote in message
news:uW**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

I'm a senior developer writing the accounting system for an insurance
software company, and have been a senior developer for other enterprises

in

the past. I am quite intimate with .NET / ASP.NET / C++ and the VB6 COM
world, know how to design software very well that scales, performs, easy

to

maintain, and maximizes code-reuse. I don't have a college degree nor do

I

have any certifications but I do have 8 years of professional experience

and

15 years total of programming experience. However, I am working on my

MCSD

right now not so much for future employment (I'm currently employed and
happy) but as an educational tool, more or less. I am very familiar

with most of the content required by the MCSD and have the experience to back

it

up, but some of the "finer" points I've picked up from studying for the

exam

and the exam forces you to have to formalize your knowledge of the

material

covered.

I can agree with the sentiment that certifications prove nothing and that code speaks louder than words. I've had my share of cleaning up horrible code from other people (and my own, I haven't always been perfect and

still

am not) and having to teach people from India and Pakistan who have

multiple

masters degrees in computer science math and physics that don't know how

to

debug a C# application or a VB6 component, so we can argue that education isn't everything either. I've worked with others who are "self-taught"

who

make for headaches on the team and those who are excellent performers.

You

just can't know until you meet the person and probe them in an interview

for

thier abilities and their problem solving skills.

But to hold a bias AGAINST people who have a certification isn't a good
thing, it really cheats the a person who may be fully-qualified for the
position and the company. I would hate to think that because I took the
time to earn a certification in a field that I'm very well experienced and competent in would actually deny me a position somewhere because of an
overly zealous bias, as well as I would hate to think that I got the job
only because of the certification. But I know how the world works and

that

there is a hard sentiment against certification holders but personally, I don't think they indicate one way or the next what the person is capable

of,

and should be treated as such.

Some people get them for an easy oppurtunity, others like myself get them

to

help reinforce what I already know from experience and extensive trial

and error. Why should I be denied employment because of it?
Thanks,
Shawn


"Kevin Spencer" <ks******@takempis.com> wrote in message
news:el**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> I am a team leader and Senior Application Developer for my company. I
> participate in the hiring process. I couldn't care less about the
> certificates that prospective employees have. A certificate proves only that
> one can cram for and pass an exam. As a programmer, I've never had to

take

> an exam in order to create an application. Therefore, the ability to

take

> exams is not a requirement for software developers. Writing solid code

is.

> So, if you want to work for me, you've got to show me the money (i.e.
code).
> On the other hand, if you want to work for a beaurocratic dinosaur, get

as

> many certificates as you can, and best of luck to you.
>
> --
> HTH,
> Kevin Spencer
> .Net Developer
> Microsoft MVP
> I get paid good money to
> solve puzzles for a living
>
> "andy lim" <ad***@infoteknika.com> wrote in message
> news:eK**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> > hello all,
> >
> > i developed several ASP.NET web application with VS2003.
> > i'm preparing myself to take an exam on the path to MCAD.NET.
> > then, the VS2005/.NET framework 2.0 (beta) came in to my hand. after

i > > played around for some time with it, i found that VS2005/.NET 2.0
includes
> > so many built-in functionalities that we need to built from scratch

with

> > VS2003. for example: user authorization/authentication, datagrid
> > formatting/sorting/paging etc.
> > the bottom line is: developing with VS2005/.NET 2.0 can makes my
> development
> > life much easier than using VS2003/.NET 1.1
> >
> > can someone tell me, is it still worth my effort and time to take that > > expensive certification exam, if it would only 2 years or so to become > > obsolete? or, should i better wait till Microsoft officially replaced all
> > MCAD.NET to conform with its new release (in VS2005/.NET 2.0)?
> >
> > i really feels like i'm on a crossroad here, and need some insights

from

> you
> > all...
> >
> > thanks in advance,
> > andy
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Lucas Tam]

"=?Utf-8?B?dHhnaGlhNTg=?=" <tx******@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
news:C7**********************************@microsof t.com:

But it sure is nice to have if you don't have much experience on your
resume'. It seems like a fact of life that you will need it to get
past the HR person that recieves hundreds of different applications.

Ya, I think that's all certificates are good for - to get past the HR
person. Most hiring managers may give the certificates *some* weight... but
overall not that much.

But once you have your interview, certificate or not, it all comes down to
knowledge and poise of the individual.

--
Lucas Tam (RE********@rogers.com)
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/