Current State of Classic ASP and ASP.NET

[Henry Rolf]

I need some advice.

I was thinking about going with ASP.NET, but after reading this I don't
think it would be right for me.
http://www.powerasp.com/content/new/...-aspdotnet.asp

I have basic html skills and have never done any scripting.

Do you guys think ASP.NET is that difficult to pick up or should I stick
with classic ASP ?

[Aaron [SQL Server MVP]]

I love these questions.

I'm thinking of learning how to drive. I like the idea of being able to
drive a standard, but do you think I should just learn automatic?

In the amount of time you will spend waiting for someone else's
[questionably] valuable opinion, you could be off creating your own hello
world web pages using both technologies and compare what *you* learn using
*your* criteria for which would be best.

--
This is my signature. It is a general reminder.
Please post DDL, sample data and desired results.
See http://www.aspfaq.com/5006 for info.

"Henry Rolf" <hr*****@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Ob**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

I need some advice.

I was thinking about going with ASP.NET, but after reading this I don't
think it would be right for me.
http://www.powerasp.com/content/new/...-aspdotnet.asp

I have basic html skills and have never done any scripting.

Do you guys think ASP.NET is that difficult to pick up or should I stick
with classic ASP ?

[Jason Brown [MSFT]]

For ease of use, go with ASP. for future-proofing, go with ASP.NET. both are
currently supported and will remain so in new versions of Windows Server.
ASP.NET has a steeper learning curve, for sure.

ideally, learn both, if you have time....
--
Jason Brown
Microsoft GTSC, IIS

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
"Henry Rolf" <hr*****@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Ob**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

I need some advice.

I was thinking about going with ASP.NET, but after reading this I don't
think it would be right for me.
http://www.powerasp.com/content/new/...-aspdotnet.asp

I have basic html skills and have never done any scripting.

Do you guys think ASP.NET is that difficult to pick up or should I stick
with classic ASP ?

[Roland Hall]

"Henry Rolf" wrote in message news:Ob**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
:I need some advice.

The Dr. is in.

: I was thinking about going with ASP.NET, but after reading this I don't
: think it would be right for me.
: http://www.powerasp.com/content/new/...-aspdotnet.asp

Ok.

: I have basic html skills and have never done any scripting.
:
: Do you guys think ASP.NET is that difficult to pick up or should I stick
: with classic ASP ?

I think ASP.NET is about as clear as mud. Two months ago I loved it. Today
I'm ready to go on a 3 state killing spree. It may be a seasonal thang.

--
Roland Hall
/* This information is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but
without any warranty; without even the implied warranty of merchantability
or fitness for a particular purpose. */
Technet Script Center - http://www.microsoft.com/technet/scriptcenter/
WSH 5.6 Documentation - http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/list/webdev.asp
MSDN Library - http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp

[Adam Short]

I have been using Classic ASP since the dawn of time. I find it very eadsy
to use, support across the web is excellent and you can pretty much do
anything with it, including interfacing with ASP.NET applications, using web
services etc.

ASP.NET also has it positive attributes. Again support is very good, you'll
find you'll be using the same support sites as with classic ASP.

I have however found draw backs in both. Classic ASP isn't very stable, and
all sorts of problems can arise from using IIS6, even in IIS5 compatibility
mode. ASP.NET is complex to learn and has more restrictions than classic
ASP.

In my opinion (which really ain't worth the newsgroup it's posted in) If you
are willing to do a bit of ground work and create/gather together a library
of routines, and are happy to sort out various IIS6 issues, I would use
classic ASP purely because of it's portability and simple programming
language (VBScript/JScript, whichever your preference).

If you don't want to hassle of maintaining IIS6 go for ASP.NET, forget
everything you know about classical programming and start learning now,
you've got a whole new world waiting for you, and it's gonna be hard work.

Have Fun!

Adam

"Henry Rolf" <hr*****@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Ob**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

I need some advice.

I was thinking about going with ASP.NET, but after reading this I don't
think it would be right for me.
http://www.powerasp.com/content/new/...-aspdotnet.asp

I have basic html skills and have never done any scripting.

Do you guys think ASP.NET is that difficult to pick up or should I stick
with classic ASP ?

[Aaron [SQL Server MVP]]

> all sorts of problems can arise from using IIS6

The only "problems" I am aware of is that it is more secure by default (so
you actually have to go and click a checkbox in order to run ASP code), and
CDONTS no longer works (but code should have been migrated to CDO.Message
back in Windows 2000, when we were all told that CDONTS was deprecated).

[Tom Kaminski [MVP]]

"Aaron [SQL Server MVP]" <te*****@dnartreb.noraa> wrote in message
news:up**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

all sorts of problems can arise from using IIS6
The only "problems" I am aware of is that it is more secure by default (so
you actually have to go and click a checkbox in order to run ASP code),

and CDONTS no longer works (but code should have been migrated to CDO.Message
back in Windows 2000, when we were all told that CDONTS was deprecated).

Plus an Access/Jet issue, but hey, that's "mickey mouse" stuff anyway ...

[Aaron [SQL Server MVP]]

> Plus an Access/Jet issue, but hey, that's "mickey mouse" stuff anyway ...

Do you mean permissions involving using ODBC versus Jet? Same kind of
issue, I think, where code should already have been migrated away from the
deprecated ODBC connection method...

A

[Jeff Cochran]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:39:38 -0400, "Henry Rolf" <hr*****@hotmail.com>
wrote:

I need some advice.

I was thinking about going with ASP.NET, but after reading this I don't
think it would be right for me.
http://www.powerasp.com/content/new/...-aspdotnet.asp

I have basic html skills and have never done any scripting.

Do you guys think ASP.NET is that difficult to pick up or should I stick
with classic ASP ?

How can you "stick with classic ASP" when you've never done any
scripting?

Programming technologies come and go, but the basic principles are
always there. Loops, branching, input/output, these never change.
Sort of like building a house is the same if you do it in English or
German, using concrete block or wood studs, the end object is still
something with walls and a roof. Once you know the roof goes on top
of the walls, the rest are just skills needed to get the job done.

That said, scripting is simple. Easy to change, easy to fix, easy to
test. No compiling, no special configs, what you see is what you get.
VBScript translates reasonably into ASP.NET coding, so you at least
understand the syntax.

Coding for .NET can be somewhat simple as well. You need a decent IDE
such as VS.NET and the basic skills of working within it, but much of
the simple structure can be drag and drop. Choosing between code
behind or inline, VBScript or C#, all are just learning techniques and
skills, not programming.

All programming can be daunting. There are darned few good
programming primers, since you kind of need to know (or learn) a
language to be able to learn programming techniques. Much of what
you'll eventually learn will come from dissecting sample code and
other programs.

So neither one is a good choice, and neither is a bad choice. Pick
one or the other, give it 8-10 hours a week for a few months and then
do the same with the other. You'll learn which fits your needs and
your desires, as well as have a basic grounding in Classic and .NET.

Then go learn Perl. :)

Jeff

[Jeff Cochran]

>I have however found draw backs in both. Classic ASP isn't very stable, and

all sorts of problems can arise from using IIS6, even in IIS5 compatibility
mode. ASP.NET is complex to learn and has more restrictions than classic
ASP.

I'd disagree on both accounts. All programming is as stable as the
code and its design. And IIS6 hasn't been the cause of any stability
issues I'm aware of.

ASP.NET doesn't have more "restrictions" in as much as it does more
and with doing more it has more requirements.

But your underlying point of needing a knowledge of the operating
system and web server functions is correct. If you're just going to
code, then use a host that can handle your needs. If the server is
yours, then learn and understand its operations as well.

Jeff

[Roland Hall]

"Jeff Cochran" wrote in message
news:42****************@msnews.microsoft.com...
: Once you know the roof goes on top
: of the walls, the rest are just skills needed to get the job done.

It goes on top? Now you tell me.

: That said, scripting is simple. Easy to change, easy to fix, easy to
: test. No compiling, no special configs, what you see is what you get.
: VBScript translates reasonably into ASP.NET coding, so you at least
: understand the syntax.
:
: Coding for .NET can be somewhat simple as well. You need a decent IDE
: such as VS.NET

VS.NET is decent?

: and the basic skills of working within it,

Oh. Maybe that's my problem.

: but much of
: the simple structure can be drag and drop.

....dragging me behind and dropping me on my head.

: Choosing between code
: behind or inline,

It usually chooses for me.

: VBScript or C#, all are just learning techniques and
: skills, not programming.

I thought it was just VB in .NET, not VBS?

: All programming can be daunting. There are darned few good
: programming primers, since you kind of need to know (or learn) a
: language to be able to learn programming techniques. Much of what
: you'll eventually learn will come from dissecting sample code and
: other programs.
:
: So neither one is a good choice, and neither is a bad choice. Pick
: one or the other, give it 8-10 hours a week for a few months and then
: do the same with the other. You'll learn which fits your needs and
: your desires, as well as have a basic grounding in Classic and .NET.
:
: Then go learn Perl. :)

Or cut off an arm and a leg. It has the same affect as working with Perl,
only faster.

--
Roland Hall
/* This information is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but
without any warranty; without even the implied warranty of merchantability
or fitness for a particular purpose. */
Technet Script Center - http://www.microsoft.com/technet/scriptcenter/
WSH 5.6 Documentation - http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/list/webdev.asp
MSDN Library - http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp

[Aaron [SQL Server MVP]]

> VS.NET is decent?

I think so, it's a better IDE than any other I've used. I use it for
authoring ASP pages, but I don't use any of the fancy authoring, server
explorer, publishing tools or other wizards. It's just a good text editor
with a very powerful find/replace tool and in-built hooks for intellisense
(HTML, VBScript, JavaScript, CSS).

A

[Jeff Cochran]

>: Coding for .NET can be somewhat simple as well. You need a decent IDE

: such as VS.NET

VS.NET is decent?

Decent as in .NET aware. You'll kill yourself coding .NET in Notepad.
PrimalCode by Sapien looks good, but I haven't used it. From the
PrimalScript experience I've had I wouldn't doubt it's a good IDE for
..NET as well.

Visual Web Developer is in Beta and may suit some users better. VS
Express as well. Can you develop with other tools? Sure. But not if
you don't know anything about .NET to start. You need an IDE that
makes dealing with classes and objects easier, they're tough enough
concepts for new programmers to get a grasp on as it is.

Jeff

[Adam Short]

Actually CDONTS does work, you just need to register the cdonts.dll file in
Component Services.

And actually IIS6 has various Session cookie problems when using ASP, and
that's just the start.

"Aaron [SQL Server MVP]" <te*****@dnartreb.noraa> wrote in message
news:up**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

all sorts of problems can arise from using IIS6

The only "problems" I am aware of is that it is more secure by default (so
you actually have to go and click a checkbox in order to run ASP code),
and CDONTS no longer works (but code should have been migrated to
CDO.Message back in Windows 2000, when we were all told that CDONTS was
deprecated).

[Adam Short]

I've found EditPlus an excellent text editor, better than Notepad!

Been using it for years...
"Aaron [SQL Server MVP]" <te*****@dnartreb.noraa> wrote in message
news:eq**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...

VS.NET is decent?

I think so, it's a better IDE than any other I've used. I use it for
authoring ASP pages, but I don't use any of the fancy authoring, server
explorer, publishing tools or other wizards. It's just a good text editor
with a very powerful find/replace tool and in-built hooks for intellisense
(HTML, VBScript, JavaScript, CSS).

A

[Jason Brown [MSFT]]

Can you describe the session cookie problem in some detail? I'm certainly
not aware of it

--
Jason Brown
Microsoft GTSC, IIS

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights.
"Adam Short" <ad**@phuture-uk.net> wrote in message
news:ui**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

Actually CDONTS does work, you just need to register the cdonts.dll file
in Component Services.

And actually IIS6 has various Session cookie problems when using ASP, and
that's just the start.

"Aaron [SQL Server MVP]" <te*****@dnartreb.noraa> wrote in message
news:up**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

all sorts of problems can arise from using IIS6

The only "problems" I am aware of is that it is more secure by default
(so you actually have to go and click a checkbox in order to run ASP
code), and CDONTS no longer works (but code should have been migrated to
CDO.Message back in Windows 2000, when we were all told that CDONTS was
deprecated).

[Adam Short]

As far as I can tell it's a recent problem, probably service packe related.
Anyway the sessions are being droppped randomly by the server.

I am currently tesing P3P Privacy settings, to see if that is where the
problem lies. If so it means a header needs to be added to the returned
script.

I think it's possibly only IE6 latest version that suffers.

The code I am trying is

Response.AddHeader "P3P", "CP=""CAO PSA OUR"""
regards

Adam
"Jason Brown [MSFT]" <i-******@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:eQ*************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

Can you describe the session cookie problem in some detail? I'm certainly
not aware of it

--
Jason Brown
Microsoft GTSC, IIS

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights.
"Adam Short" <ad**@phuture-uk.net> wrote in message
news:ui**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

Actually CDONTS does work, you just need to register the cdonts.dll file
in Component Services.

And actually IIS6 has various Session cookie problems when using ASP, and
that's just the start.

"Aaron [SQL Server MVP]" <te*****@dnartreb.noraa> wrote in message
news:up**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

all sorts of problems can arise from using IIS6

The only "problems" I am aware of is that it is more secure by default
(so you actually have to go and click a checkbox in order to run ASP
code), and CDONTS no longer works (but code should have been migrated to
CDO.Message back in Windows 2000, when we were all told that CDONTS was
deprecated).

[Aaron [SQL Server MVP]]

> I am currently tesing P3P Privacy settings, to see if that is where the

problem lies.

If it is, it has nothing to do with IIS 6, but rather with the security /
privacy settings of the browser.
http://www.aspfaq.com/2157

[Adam Short]

You're not quite seeing the whole picture!

If it is browser settings, and it has become a standard, and it affects
Session Cookies, then it is the developers problem, not the servers, not the
end visitor.

Anyway, a possible workaround, which I am still testing, is this;

Add the line

Response.AddHeader "P3P", "CP=""CAO PSA OUR"""

to the top of all classic ASP pages to set the privacy policy of the site.

I hope this clarifies the situation.

Regards

Adam
"Aaron [SQL Server MVP]" <te*****@dnartreb.noraa> wrote in message
news:u7**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...

I am currently tesing P3P Privacy settings, to see if that is where the
problem lies.

If it is, it has nothing to do with IIS 6, but rather with the security /
privacy settings of the browser.
http://www.aspfaq.com/2157

[Roland Hall]

"Aaron [SQL Server MVP]" wrote in message
news:eq**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
:> VS.NET is decent?
:
: I think so, it's a better IDE than any other I've used. I use it for
: authoring ASP pages, but I don't use any of the fancy authoring, server
: explorer, publishing tools or other wizards. It's just a good text editor
: with a very powerful find/replace tool and in-built hooks for intellisense
: (HTML, VBScript, JavaScript, CSS).

I actually like server explorer but this dog is slow compared to VS6.
Launching in a browser also displays in my IDE and not separate in my
browser as before. I also haven't figured out how to get back to the start
page if I close it.

--
Roland Hall
/* This information is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but
without any warranty; without even the implied warranty of merchantability
or fitness for a particular purpose. */
Technet Script Center - http://www.microsoft.com/technet/scriptcenter/
WSH 5.6 Documentation - http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/list/webdev.asp
MSDN Library - http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp

[Roland Hall]

"Jeff Cochran" <je*********@zina.com> wrote in message
news:42****************@msnews.microsoft.com...
:>: Coding for .NET can be somewhat simple as well. You need a decent IDE
: >: such as VS.NET
: >
: >VS.NET is decent?
:
: Decent as in .NET aware. You'll kill yourself coding .NET in Notepad.
: PrimalCode by Sapien looks good, but I haven't used it. From the
: PrimalScript experience I've had I wouldn't doubt it's a good IDE for
: .NET as well.

Don't think I mentioned coding in notepad as I only use that for WSH.
--
Roland Hall
/* This information is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but
without any warranty; without even the implied warranty of merchantability
or fitness for a particular purpose. */
Technet Script Center - http://www.microsoft.com/technet/scriptcenter/
WSH 5.6 Documentation - http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/list/webdev.asp
MSDN Library - http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp

[dm4714]

Hi -- can you explain the P3P Privacy settings and how it can be used for
ASP. I assume I have to somehow generate a hash P3P string or something?

What are the advantages of P3P over the Internet and the Intranet?


"Adam Short" <ad**@phuture-uk.net> wrote in message
news:uw**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

As far as I can tell it's a recent problem, probably service packe
related. Anyway the sessions are being droppped randomly by the server.

I am currently tesing P3P Privacy settings, to see if that is where the
problem lies. If so it means a header needs to be added to the returned
script.

I think it's possibly only IE6 latest version that suffers.

The code I am trying is

Response.AddHeader "P3P", "CP=""CAO PSA OUR"""
regards

Adam
"Jason Brown [MSFT]" <i-******@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:eQ*************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

Can you describe the session cookie problem in some detail? I'm certainly
not aware of it

--
Jason Brown
Microsoft GTSC, IIS

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights.
"Adam Short" <ad**@phuture-uk.net> wrote in message
news:ui**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

Actually CDONTS does work, you just need to register the cdonts.dll file
in Component Services.

And actually IIS6 has various Session cookie problems when using ASP,
and that's just the start.

"Aaron [SQL Server MVP]" <te*****@dnartreb.noraa> wrote in message
news:up**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> all sorts of problems can arise from using IIS6

The only "problems" I am aware of is that it is more secure by default
(so you actually have to go and click a checkbox in order to run ASP
code), and CDONTS no longer works (but code should have been migrated
to CDO.Message back in Windows 2000, when we were all told that CDONTS
was deprecated).

[Adam Short]

I don't fully understand all the specifics but there is information in the
net.

if you add the following line of code into the beginning of your asp source
it will send a header to the browser
<%
Response.AddHeader "P3P", "CP=""CAO PSA OUR"""
%>

The header essentially states that your site uses cookies, be them session
or otherwise, and that your site policy is not to divulge the information
collected.

The latest version of IE6 certainly uses this information to configure it's
privacy policy. As far as I know these settings are not affected within an
Intranet environment as all sites are trusted by default. This would be why
developers experience with Session Cookies on live servers and not on local
development servers.

Reference:
https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/ehowes/www...iv-ie6_rev.htm (Very useful)
http://www.microsoft.com/winme/01mit...es/default.htm
(Privacy Statement Creation)
http://use.perl.org/~gav/journal/20565 (Comment)
http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/users/ddahls...5/hw1-sol.html (Point 2)
http://support.microsoft.com/default...b;EN-US;293222 (Reference)
Hope this all helps

Regards

Adam Short
"dm4714" <sp**@spam.net> wrote in message
news:O5**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...

Hi -- can you explain the P3P Privacy settings and how it can be used for
ASP. I assume I have to somehow generate a hash P3P string or something?

What are the advantages of P3P over the Internet and the Intranet?


"Adam Short" <ad**@phuture-uk.net> wrote in message
news:uw**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

As far as I can tell it's a recent problem, probably service packe
related. Anyway the sessions are being droppped randomly by the server.

I am currently tesing P3P Privacy settings, to see if that is where the
problem lies. If so it means a header needs to be added to the returned
script.

I think it's possibly only IE6 latest version that suffers.

The code I am trying is

Response.AddHeader "P3P", "CP=""CAO PSA OUR"""
regards

Adam
"Jason Brown [MSFT]" <i-******@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:eQ*************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

Can you describe the session cookie problem in some detail? I'm
certainly not aware of it

--
Jason Brown
Microsoft GTSC, IIS

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights.
"Adam Short" <ad**@phuture-uk.net> wrote in message
news:ui**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Actually CDONTS does work, you just need to register the cdonts.dll
file in Component Services.

And actually IIS6 has various Session cookie problems when using ASP,
and that's just the start.

"Aaron [SQL Server MVP]" <te*****@dnartreb.noraa> wrote in message
news:up**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> all sorts of problems can arise from using IIS6
>
> The only "problems" I am aware of is that it is more secure by default
> (so you actually have to go and click a checkbox in order to run ASP
> code), and CDONTS no longer works (but code should have been migrated
> to CDO.Message back in Windows 2000, when we were all told that CDONTS
> was deprecated).
>