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MS Access: a true RDBMS

P: n/a
Is MS Access a true RDBMS?
Jan 1 '06 #1
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43 Replies


P: n/a
What's your definition of a "true RDBMS"? I don't believe any DBMS exists
that implements all of the rules.

--
Doug Steele, Microsoft Access MVP
http://I.Am/DougSteele
(no e-mails, please!)

"sinister" <si******@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:Mf********************@comcast.com...
Is MS Access a true RDBMS?

Jan 1 '06 #2

P: n/a
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Jan 1 '06 #3

P: n/a
"Lyle Fairfield" <ly***********@aim.com> wrote:

How come only your fingers and toes get wrinkly in the shower and
nothing else does?
In a really cold shower, something else does ...

If there was a crumb on the table and you cut it in half, would you
have two crumbs or two halves of a crumb?
Two crumbs, which are infiinitely divisible.

Do Jewish vampires avoid crosses or Stars of David?
Not possible. Eating people is not Kosher.

Can you make a candle out of your earwax?
I'll get back to you on this one in a week or so ...

Why is there that little space inside strawberries, as if it was meant
for a pit, and then the seeds are on the outside?


It's actually for the milk and sugar.
--
Darryl Kerkeslager
Jan 1 '06 #4

P: n/a
rkc
sinister wrote:
Is MS Access a true RDBMS?


Is it O.K. to use a checkbox for my answer?
Jan 1 '06 #5

P: n/a

"rkc" <rk*@rochester.yabba.dabba.do.rr.bomb> wrote in message
news:Dj*******************@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
sinister wrote:
Is MS Access a true RDBMS?


Is it O.K. to use a checkbox for my answer?

You mean so that you can indicate whether it is a male rdbms or a female
rdbms?

Jan 1 '06 #6

P: n/a

"Douglas J. Steele" <NOSPAM_djsteele@NOSPAM_canada.com> wrote in message
news:en**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
What's your definition of a "true RDBMS"? I don't believe any DBMS exists
that implements all of the rules.
Well, for one, is there a DB server that maintains the DB?
--
Doug Steele, Microsoft Access MVP
http://I.Am/DougSteele
(no e-mails, please!)

"sinister" <si******@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:Mf********************@comcast.com...
Is MS Access a true RDBMS?


Jan 1 '06 #7

P: n/a
"sinister" <si******@nospam.invalid> wrote in
news:7N********************@comcast.com:
"Douglas J. Steele" <NOSPAM_djsteele@NOSPAM_canada.com> wrote in
message news:en**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
What's your definition of a "true RDBMS"? I don't believe any
DBMS exists that implements all of the rules.


Well, for one, is there a DB server that maintains the DB?


That's not part of any definition of RDBMS, which is a mathematical
concept.

Implementation is irrelevant to status as a true RDBMS.

I suspect you're just a troll, since anyone with the capability to
frame the question in this regard knows the answer to the question
of whether there's a Jet server.

<PLONK>

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Jan 1 '06 #8

P: n/a
"Lyle Fairfield" <ly***********@aim.com> wrote in
news:11**********************@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:
Why is there a little countdown (like 8, 7, 6, 5, 4) near the
bottom of the copyright info page in the beginning of many books?


I can actually answer that one. It's so that they can indicate which
printing it is. It's easier to put all the numbers on the initial
films from which the plates for printing are created (or however it
works) and then to remove one number at a time for each printing
than it would be to add in a number that wasn't there originally.

So, the original printing had:

10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

The next one:

10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2

The next:

10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3

And so forth.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Jan 1 '06 #9

P: n/a
sinister wrote:
Is MS Access a true RDBMS?


Sounds like a homework assignment. 8) ;)

The answer lies in finding (the late) E.F.COdd's rules for a truly
relational database. Google these terms.

Jet doesn't meet some of Codd's rules, but then again, there are
database theorists who claim there is NOTHING out there that fully meets
Codd's definition, though Jet misses a number of them.

But so what? There's two things to consider - is a database system
truly relational _and_ is the designer using appropriate relational
database principles?

In my mind, the latter question is by far the most important.

I've seen *lots* of Oracle database systems which many database
theorists classify as a true RDBMS (and some also claim is not, because
of their interpretation of Codd's rules) that are absolutely pathetic
imitations of anything relational. Try the infamous "Banner" financial
system for size - among other things, the absolute worst GUI I have ever
seen - I'd much rather be using something banged out by a 12 year old on
a Tandy in the early 80s. But there are lots of other examples I've
seen local Oracle developers produce. ON the same token, I've seen lots
of Jet applications which are quite faithful to principles of relational
design.

So your homework question is moot. 8)

Please be honest and include my full name in your bibliography if you
decide to use any of the above in your assignment - I'll just pop in my
work sig followed by my usual newsgroup sig, thanks. ;)

Tim Marshall 709 737-2662
Manager, Work Control
Facilities Management, Memorial University
St John's, NL, Canada
--
Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/
^o<
/#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake
/^^ "What's UP, Dittoooooo?" - Ditto
Jan 1 '06 #10

P: n/a
"Lyle Fairfield" <ly***********@aim.com> wrote in
news:11**********************@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:
Are there pink lemons that make pink lemonade?


No. Pink lemonade has traditionally been colored with cochineal,
which makes pink lemonade non-vegetarian (since the dye is made from
the crushed bodies of insects):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochineal

However, I believe it's not widely used today in pink lemonade
mixes, which probably use normal red dyes.

So, you can probably drink most pink lemonade if you're a vegetarian
or Muslim or Jewish.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Jan 1 '06 #11

P: n/a
"Lyle Fairfield" <ly***********@aim.com> wrote in
news:11**********************@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:
Can you put a gay man in a straight jacket?


No, but you can put him in a straitjacked.

See:

http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/319/straight/

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Jan 1 '06 #12

P: n/a
"David W. Fenton" <XX*******@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xn**********************************@127.0.0. 1
"Lyle Fairfield" <ly***********@aim.com> wrote in
news:11**********************@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:
Can you put a gay man in a straight jacket?


No, but you can put him in a straitjacked.


Is that like being hijacked? or maybe high-jacked?

--
Dirk Goldgar, MS Access MVP
www.datagnostics.com

(please reply to the newsgroup)
Jan 1 '06 #13

P: n/a
"David W. Fenton" <XX*******@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xn**********************************@127.0.0. 1
"Lyle Fairfield" <ly***********@aim.com> wrote in
news:11**********************@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:
Why is there a little countdown (like 8, 7, 6, 5, 4) near the
bottom of the copyright info page in the beginning of many books?


I can actually answer that one. It's so that they can indicate which
printing it is. It's easier to put all the numbers on the initial
films from which the plates for printing are created (or however it
works) and then to remove one number at a time for each printing
than it would be to add in a number that wasn't there originally.


Thanks, David, for a new factoid to add to my collection!

--
Dirk Goldgar, MS Access MVP
www.datagnostics.com

(please reply to the newsgroup)
Jan 1 '06 #14

P: n/a

"David W. Fenton" <XX*******@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xn*********************************@127.0.0.1 ...
"sinister" <si******@nospam.invalid> wrote in
news:7N********************@comcast.com:
"Douglas J. Steele" <NOSPAM_djsteele@NOSPAM_canada.com> wrote in
message news:en**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
What's your definition of a "true RDBMS"? I don't believe any
DBMS exists that implements all of the rules.
Well, for one, is there a DB server that maintains the DB?


That's not part of any definition of RDBMS, which is a mathematical
concept.


Uh, no.

From _Fundamentals of Database Systems_, Elmasri & Navathe, 2nd edition, p.
2: "A database management system (DBMS) is a collection of programs that
enable users to create and maintain a database."

You're referring to the relational _data model_, which is indeed a
mathematical concept.
Implementation is irrelevant to status as a true RDBMS.

I suspect you're just a troll, since anyone with the capability to
frame the question in this regard knows the answer to the question
of whether there's a Jet server.

<PLONK>

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/

Jan 1 '06 #15

P: n/a

"Tim Marshall" <TI****@PurplePandaChasers.Moertherium> wrote in message
news:dp**********@coranto.ucs.mun.ca...
sinister wrote:
Is MS Access a true RDBMS?
Sounds like a homework assignment. 8) ;)

The answer lies in finding (the late) E.F.COdd's rules for a truly
relational database. Google these terms.


I'm more interested in the "system" aspect than the "relational" aspect,
which I'm already familiar with.

Is Access built around a client-server paradigm, or is every user who
accesses the DB using their own instance of the server?
Jet doesn't meet some of Codd's rules, but then again, there are database
theorists who claim there is NOTHING out there that fully meets Codd's
definition, though Jet misses a number of them.

But so what? There's two things to consider - is a database system truly
relational _and_ is the designer using appropriate relational database
principles?

In my mind, the latter question is by far the most important.

I've seen *lots* of Oracle database systems which many database theorists
classify as a true RDBMS (and some also claim is not, because of their
interpretation of Codd's rules) that are absolutely pathetic imitations of
anything relational. Try the infamous "Banner" financial system for
size - among other things, the absolute worst GUI I have ever seen - I'd
much rather be using something banged out by a 12 year old on a Tandy in
the early 80s. But there are lots of other examples I've seen local
Oracle developers produce. ON the same token, I've seen lots of Jet
applications which are quite faithful to principles of relational design.

So your homework question is moot. 8)

Please be honest and include my full name in your bibliography if you
decide to use any of the above in your assignment - I'll just pop in my
work sig followed by my usual newsgroup sig, thanks. ;)

Tim Marshall 709 737-2662
Manager, Work Control
Facilities Management, Memorial University
St John's, NL, Canada
--
Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/
^o<
/#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake
/^^ "What's UP, Dittoooooo?" - Ditto

Jan 1 '06 #16

P: n/a
If you're really looking for an answer to your question, go back to the very
first reply in the thread. Answer Doug Steele's question - define what you
consider a "true RDBMS". From your response to Tim, it sounds as though you
have something particular in mind. I strongly suspect, however, you are
more interested in starting an argument than getting an answer to your
question.

--
Randy Harris
tech at promail dot com
I'm pretty sure I know everything that I can remember.

Jan 1 '06 #17

P: n/a
sinister wrote:
I'm more interested in the "system" aspect than the "relational" aspect,
which I'm already familiar with.

Is Access built around a client-server paradigm, or is every user who
accesses the DB using their own instance of the server?


HI again,

The definition of "true RDBMS", which is what you asked, is as I
responded. No ifs, ands, or buts. 8)

As to your second question: it depends. I, and many others, write
Access apps against a client server database, in my case, an Oracle
server. Access comes _packaged_ with the MS Jet database engine, which
is not a client/server package; it's a file server system. There are
folks who can better answer that question (which, again, is not what you
originally asked) than I can.

If you don't get any satisfactory answers and it seems one or two people
have interpreted this thread as a troll, you can google
comp.databases.ms-access for "file server" and you're sure to get some
excellent posts on what that is all about.

Best of luck.
--
Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/
^o<
/#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake
/^^ "What's UP, Dittoooooo?" - Ditto
Jan 1 '06 #18

P: n/a
"sinister" <si******@nospam.invalid> wrote:
Is Access built around a client-server paradigm, or is every user who
accesses the DB using their own instance of the server?


Paradigm?!?! <shudder> A word I despise due to it's overuse in years
and decades past.

Clearly you've never used Access.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Jan 2 '06 #19

P: n/a
As others mentioned, not even Oracle qualifies as a relational database when
you narrow the definition down to a strict cod's rules.

Is Access built around a client-server paradigm, or is every user who
accesses the DB using their own instance of the server?


yes, if you create a access project, you are using a 100% native client to
server model.

(from the file menu...go file->Project using new data...

If you use the above..then you are creating access file that is a client -
server paradigm.

So, ms-access lets you connect to your database engine of choice. Remember,
it would be silly to call VB a database.

It is same for ms-access. ms-access is a software development tool like c++,
or VB. You design and write code. The type of database you use with
ms-access is your choice.

So, to answer you question...yes, ms-access can be a true client to server
system....

--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
pl*****************@msn.com
http://www.members.shaw.ca/AlbertKallal
Jan 2 '06 #20

P: n/a
Albert D.Kallal wrote:
As others mentioned, not even Oracle qualifies as a relational database when
you narrow the definition down to a strict cod's rules.


When it comes down to writing an application, I've never hemmed and
hawed and contemplated my navel while pondering whether or not Access is
a "true" relational database. I'll let the acadamics decide that in
their ivory towers and let them get bogged down in the mundane while
solving and adding nothing new.

Others have asked this question before. Sinister could simply do what
normal people do and google his question.
Jan 2 '06 #21

P: n/a
"Albert D.Kallal" <Pl*******************@msn.com> wrote in
news:e#**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl:
As others mentioned, not even Oracle qualifies as a relational
database when you narrow the definition down to a strict cod's
rules.
Is Access built around a client-server paradigm, or is every user
who accesses the DB using their own instance of the server?
yes, if you create a access project, you are using a 100% native
client to server model.


This is a ludicrous question. If you're using Access to connect to
SQL Server (or some other client/server db engine), then Access is
*not* being used as an RDBMS at all -- it's just an application
development platform.

The question of whether "Access is an RDBMS" makes sense *only* if
you're limiting the discussion to Jet.

And in that case, issues of client/server become completely
irrelevant because Jet cannot act as a server.

Nonetheless, this is completely irrelevant to any definition of
RDBMS that I've ever encountered. It is entirely an implementation
question, whereas the definition of an RDBMS is a logical
definition.
So, to answer you question...yes, ms-access can be a true client
to server system....


Your answer makes a complete hash of the distinction between Jet and
Access and of the basic issues at hand in this discussion.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Jan 2 '06 #22

P: n/a
> Why isn't chocolate considered a vegetable, if chocolate comes from
cocoa beans, and all beans are a vegetable?


Chocolate comes from the CACAO bean (pronounced ka-KOW), not a "cocoa" bean
(Yes, they butchered that technicality in the movie "Charlie and the
Chocolate Factory" but the book had it right). Otherwise, a good question.
Jan 3 '06 #23

P: n/a

"Tim Marshall" <TI****@PurplePandaChasers.Moertherium> wrote in message
news:dp**********@coranto.ucs.mun.ca...
sinister wrote:
I'm more interested in the "system" aspect than the "relational" aspect,
which I'm already familiar with.

Is Access built around a client-server paradigm, or is every user who
accesses the DB using their own instance of the server?
HI again,

The definition of "true RDBMS", which is what you asked, is as I
responded. No ifs, ands, or buts. 8)

As to your second question: it depends. I, and many others, write Access
apps against a client server database, in my case, an Oracle server.
Access comes _packaged_ with the MS Jet database engine, which is not a
client/server package; it's a file server system. There are folks who can
better answer that question (which, again, is not what you originally
asked) than I can.

If you don't get any satisfactory answers and it seems one or two people
have interpreted this thread as a troll, you can google
comp.databases.ms-access for "file server" and you're sure to get some
excellent posts on what that is all about.


Thanks; you pretty much answered my question.

And thanks for being one of the (very) few respondents who wasn't a total
**shole.

Cheers,

S

Best of luck.
--
Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/
^o<
/#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake
/^^ "What's UP, Dittoooooo?" - Ditto

Jan 3 '06 #24

P: n/a

"salad" <oi*@vinegar.com> wrote in message
news:IA***************@newsread1.news.pas.earthlin k.net...
Albert D.Kallal wrote:
As others mentioned, not even Oracle qualifies as a relational database
when you narrow the definition down to a strict cod's rules.


When it comes down to writing an application, I've never hemmed and hawed
and contemplated my navel while pondering whether or not Access is a
"true" relational database. I'll let the acadamics decide that in their
ivory towers and let them get bogged down in the mundane while solving and
adding nothing new.

Others have asked this question before. Sinister could simply do what
normal people do and google his question.


Did google. Didn't come up with that much on the first try or two.
Jan 3 '06 #25

P: n/a
That statement is total crap!

Results 1 - 10 of about 26,800 for true rdbms MS-Access. (0.06 seconds)

Results 1 - 10 of about 19,000 for true rdbms JET. (0.04 seconds)

Results 1 - 10 of about 50,200 for true Relational Database Management
System MS-Access. (0.19 seconds)

Results 1 - 10 of about 831,000 for true Relational Database Management
System JET. (0.17 seconds)

Jan 3 '06 #26

P: n/a
And thanks to you for posting such a stimulating and intellectually
demanding topic that has been hashed and rehashed in this and other
groups no more than a thousand times.
When you are happy with your understanding of it I trust you will move
right on to:
"How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"
Hope this helps!

Jan 3 '06 #27

P: n/a

"sinister" <si******@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:DK******************************@comcast.com. ..

"Tim Marshall" <TI****@PurplePandaChasers.Moertherium> wrote in message
news:dp**********@coranto.ucs.mun.ca...
sinister wrote:
I'm more interested in the "system" aspect than the "relational" aspect, which I'm already familiar with.

Is Access built around a client-server paradigm, or is every user who
accesses the DB using their own instance of the server?


And thanks for being one of the (very) few respondents who wasn't a total
**shole.

You show up in this newsgroup, calling yourself sinister, asking a question
for which you get several appropriate answers, then insist that wasn't the
question you wanted answered, you were already familiar with that, but
something entirely different. Based on that, everyone is a "total **shole".
Better look in the mirror pal.

--
Randy Harris
tech at promail dot com
I'm pretty sure I know everything that I can remember.

Jan 3 '06 #28

P: n/a
sinister wrote:
And thanks for being one of the (very) few respondents who wasn't a total


Well, the thing is, we occasionally get a cross post from one of the
theory groups that tend to trash Access. I don't know about other
specific groups, but on the oracle hierarchy, when someone asks a
question pertaining to Access connectivity to Oracle or something
related, almost inevitably one or more of the really experienced gurus
will say something to the effect of "step 1, change your development
platform". This is all crap, really. The difficulty with Access is
that it is widely available and as a result of its ease of use (with at
least beginner level stuff) you *do* get lots of people who know nothing
about the relational model making up absolute garbage and calling
themselves developers. This tends to slant the opinions of developers
of other platforms, very unfairly, in my opinion. Access is an
excellent development tool, regardless of what database engine is baing
used.

Anyway, a lot of the snubbing of Access often starts with opening
statements resembling your question. I think that's why you've gotten
some negative responses. 8)

--
Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/
^o<
/#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake
/^^ "What's UP, Dittoooooo?" - Ditto
Jan 3 '06 #29

P: n/a
Lyle Fairfield wrote:
That statement is total crap!

Results 1 - 10 of about 26,800 for true rdbms MS-Access. (0.06 seconds)

Results 1 - 10 of about 19,000 for true rdbms JET. (0.04 seconds)

Results 1 - 10 of about 50,200 for true Relational Database Management
System MS-Access. (0.19 seconds)

Results 1 - 10 of about 831,000 for true Relational Database Management
System JET. (0.17 seconds)

Sinister was looking under Google Images.
Jan 3 '06 #30

P: n/a
Yes, if you take out the word true, but then there isn't a true RDBMS system
out there.
--
Terry Kreft

"sinister" <si******@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:Mf********************@comcast.com...
Is MS Access a true RDBMS?

Jan 3 '06 #31

P: n/a
"sinister" <si******@nospam.invalid> wrote
Uh, no.

From _Fundamentals of Database Systems_, Elmasri & Navathe, 2nd edition, p. 2: "A database management system (DBMS) is a collection of programs that
enable users to create and maintain a database."


There's certainly nothing in the definition you quote that requires a
"server DB", only a "collection of programs".

The Jet database engine may, even without the Access front end, fulfill that
definition -- because with a number of different "tools" you can use Jet to
enable users to create and maintain a database. You can do so with most any
software that uses VBA, with the separate VB product (classic or .NET),
various versions of C, Delphi, and others. Certainly the combination of
Access (the user interface and development tool) and Jet (the database
engine) satisfies the definition.

Jet is a "file-server" database engine as opposed to what is normally
considered a "server" database engine (e.g., Microsoft SQL Server, Oracle,
Informix, etc.).

Larry Linson
Microsoft Access MVP
Jan 3 '06 #32

P: n/a
"sinister" <si******@nospam.invalid> wrote in
news:0c********************@comcast.com:
"David W. Fenton" <XX*******@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xn*********************************@127.0.0.1 ...
"sinister" <si******@nospam.invalid> wrote in
news:7N********************@comcast.com:
"Douglas J. Steele" <NOSPAM_djsteele@NOSPAM_canada.com> wrote in
message news:en**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
What's your definition of a "true RDBMS"? I don't believe any
DBMS exists that implements all of the rules.

Well, for one, is there a DB server that maintains the DB?


That's not part of any definition of RDBMS, which is a
mathematical concept.


Uh, no.

From _Fundamentals of Database Systems_, Elmasri & Navathe, 2nd
edition, p. 2: "A database management system (DBMS) is a
collection of programs that enable users to create and maintain a
database."

You're referring to the relational _data model_, which is indeed a
mathematical concept.


You asked a question about an RDBMS and supply a definition of a
DBMS to refute my statement.

Are you an idiot or a mere troll?

Secondly, even your definition does not require tha the "collection
of programs" be running on different machines, or that the data
handling be divided between different modules. Jet itself has
separate libraries for handling data (the Jet DLLs are programs
separate from Access for processing the data), they just can't be
run on a remote machine.

Your question is nonsense to begin with since you don't provide any
context for your definition of RDBMS. It's like asking "how long is
a piece of string?"

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Jan 3 '06 #33

P: n/a
Tim Marshall <TI****@PurplePandaChasers.Moertherium> wrote in
news:dp**********@coranto.ucs.mun.ca:
Anyway, a lot of the snubbing of Access often starts with opening
statements resembling your question. I think that's why you've
gotten some negative responses.


He got negative responses because it was a bloody stupid question,
precisely because he didn't provide any definitions to make it
possible to *answer* the stupid question.

Of course, if he *had* provided definitions, then there'd have been
no reason to *ask* the question.

Hence, my conclusion that he was a troll.

His tendency to call people assholes tends to confirm it for me.

And, of course, your answer was mistaken in the first place, since
you answered the server question by talking about Access as a
development platform, instead of as an RDBMS. You made a hash of the
answer by mixing up Access and Jet, which is precisely the problem
that you were criticizing in your citation of the Oracle yahoos.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Jan 3 '06 #34

P: n/a

"Tim Marshall" <TI****@PurplePandaChasers.Moertherium> wrote in message
news:dp**********@coranto.ucs.mun.ca...
sinister wrote:
And thanks for being one of the (very) few respondents who wasn't a total
Well, the thing is, we occasionally get a cross post from one of the
theory groups that tend to trash Access. I don't know about other
specific groups, but on the oracle hierarchy, when someone asks a question
pertaining to Access connectivity to Oracle or something related, almost
inevitably one or more of the really experienced gurus will say something
to the effect of "step 1, change your development platform". This is all
crap, really. The difficulty with Access is that it is widely available
and as a result of its ease of use (with at least beginner level stuff)
you *do* get lots of people who know nothing about the relational model
making up absolute garbage and calling themselves developers. This tends
to slant the opinions of developers of other platforms, very unfairly, in
my opinion. Access is an excellent development tool, regardless of what
database engine is baing used.

Anyway, a lot of the snubbing of Access often starts with opening
statements resembling your question. I think that's why you've gotten
some negative responses. 8)


Perhaps.

IMHO the amount of bandwidth spent by people in this group demonstrating
that they have extremely thin skins after *one* post on my part is pretty
remarkable.
--
Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/
^o<
/#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake
/^^ "What's UP, Dittoooooo?" - Ditto

Jan 3 '06 #35

P: n/a
rkc
sinister wrote:
IMHO the amount of bandwidth spent by people in this group demonstrating
that they have extremely thin skins after *one* post on my part is pretty
remarkable.


Is Access a true RDBMS system?
Jan 4 '06 #36

P: n/a
That is why all my replies have been suksinct. Bandwidht is so
important these days! I am getting these messages as bitts translated
into native drumb rithms. When a "beat" is "sent" a device hears that
and turns on a light bulb. The freakwency of the light bulb flashing is
recorded on an continuously fed infinte roll of light senstive toilet
papper as black smudge marks. This paper is fed through a modified data
card reader which interprets the smudges and displays the messages in
sefen aboriginal languages using a prehistoric picture symbol for each
sylable. Then we get Uncle Felix to come over and he tells us what they
say.
To send we have to reverse the whole prosess.
So it's important not to say anything beyond the bare minimum of what's
needed.
Sorry for any spelling errors here but Uncle Felix is pretty well
smashed tonight!

Jan 4 '06 #37

P: n/a

"sinister" <si******@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:95******************************@comcast.com. ..


IMHO the amount of bandwidth spent by people in this group demonstrating
that they have extremely thin skins after *one* post on my part is pretty
remarkable.


You are being entirely disingenuous. You received replies to your original
post that were entirely appropriate, including at least one that attempted
to help answer your question. You disputed that reply and incorrectly
suggested that DB server was somehow part of what constitutes a "true
RDBMS". To support your erroneous argument, you provided a book definition
of something other than what you had originally asked about. You then went
on to call people assholes. Now you suggest that people have "extremely
thin skins after *one* post on my part". It was certainly not one post that
caused people to take offense. If you had been honest in your questions in
the first place, you would have received meaningful answers.
--
Randy Harris
tech at promail dot com
I'm pretty sure I know everything that I can remember.

Jan 4 '06 #38

P: n/a
David W. Fenton wrote:
And, of course, your answer was mistaken in the first place, since
you answered the server question by talking about Access as a
development platform, instead of as an RDBMS. You made a hash of the
answer by mixing up Access and Jet, which is precisely the problem
that you were criticizing in your citation of the Oracle yahoos.


Well, OK, but I would appreciate it if you would tell me where and how I
was wrong.

Are you saying Access itself is a database? What is Jet then? I've
based my answers on comments and discussion I've read here over the
years. And that is that Access is a development platform that comes
bpackaged with the Jet database engine and that it uses Jet as a means
to manipulate records displayed, say in a datasheet or form. IE, when I
use a Passthrough query to bring Oracle data from the server to a client
screen and I use the excellent built in filters that I am using Jet to
manipulate data on the client.

Thanks in advance to you or anyone that can straighten me out on this.
Actually, given the tremendous amount of negativity on this thread,
perhaps if you can explain my "hash" and what would make it right, then
perhaps something positive can come of things, after all?

As far as the original poster goes, you may note I thought the question
was a homework question. Nevertheless, I prefer to treat new people by
assuming they are genuinely curious (or at VERY worst, frustrated) as
opposed to hostile. It's actually the way I try to live in all aspects
of life and I've done well from it. I'm a happy bird, at least. 8)

--
Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/
^o<
/#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake
/^^ "What's UP, Dittoooooo?" - Ditto
Jan 4 '06 #39

P: n/a
Lyle,
I have a FelixSefen translation algorithm you might be able to use, mind you
have to use a spearchucker on it afterwards as the Felix half of it is
always smashed <g>.

The only problem with it, apart from that, is slight contextual errors. You
know the one with the Ibis stood on one leg which can mean "you are a rare
brilliance in the dark" or "you have the brain and mannerisms of a baboon"
that's caused problems on occasion in e-mails to clients.
--
Terry Kreft

"Lyle Fairfield" <ly***********@aim.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@o13g2000cwo.googlegr oups.com...
That is why all my replies have been suksinct. Bandwidht is so
important these days! I am getting these messages as bitts translated
into native drumb rithms. When a "beat" is "sent" a device hears that
and turns on a light bulb. The freakwency of the light bulb flashing is
recorded on an continuously fed infinte roll of light senstive toilet
papper as black smudge marks. This paper is fed through a modified data
card reader which interprets the smudges and displays the messages in
sefen aboriginal languages using a prehistoric picture symbol for each
sylable. Then we get Uncle Felix to come over and he tells us what they
say.
To send we have to reverse the whole prosess.
So it's important not to say anything beyond the bare minimum of what's
needed.
Sorry for any spelling errors here but Uncle Felix is pretty well
smashed tonight!

Jan 4 '06 #40

P: n/a
Tim Marshall <TI****@PurplePandaChasers.Moertherium> wrote in
news:dp**********@coranto.ucs.mun.ca:
David W. Fenton wrote:
And, of course, your answer was mistaken in the first place,
since you answered the server question by talking about Access as
a development platform, instead of as an RDBMS. You made a hash
of the answer by mixing up Access and Jet, which is precisely the
problem that you were criticizing in your citation of the Oracle
yahoos.
Well, OK, but I would appreciate it if you would tell me where and
how I was wrong.

Are you saying Access itself is a database? . . .


Of course not. Access is a development platform that includes a
database engine, Jet.

Any questions about whether or not Access is an RDBMS are,
therefore, about Jet, not about the Access parts. Thus, the fact
that Access can be used as a front end to client/server database
engines is not an aspect of the database part of Access.

Thus, it's completely irrelevant to the original question.
. . . What is Jet then? . . .
In Access as client to a server database, Jet is only involved
trivially, as a data access layer, not as a database engine. Thus,
that scenario has nothing to do with the question "Is Access an
RDBMS?"
. . . I've
based my answers on comments and discussion I've read here over
the years. And that is that Access is a development platform that
comes bpackaged with the Jet database engine and that it uses Jet
as a means to manipulate records displayed, say in a datasheet or
form. IE, when I use a Passthrough query to bring Oracle data
from the server to a client screen and I use the excellent built
in filters that I am using Jet to manipulate data on the client.
Nope. In that scenario, you're using Jet as a data access layer, not
as a database engine. The actual data processing is not handled by
Jet in that case (well, that's not entirely true if you write your
SQL badly).

Actually, I hadn't thought about that -- Jet does take over what it
can't figure out how to pass on to the server. This is, perhaps, a
unique aspect of Jet, the way in which it works cooperatively with
the remote server.

In any event, that's an aspect of Jet, not of the server database,
so it's still not making Jet into a server db, which was the
question you were attempting to answer (even though it was
completely irrelevant to the original question about whether or not
Access is an RDBMS).
Thanks in advance to you or anyone that can straighten me out on
this. Actually, given the tremendous amount of negativity on this
thread, perhaps if you can explain my "hash" and what would make
it right, then perhaps something positive can come of things,
after all?
The original two questions were confused, and, I believe, designed
to provoke, so I'm not certain there's much to be gained from trying
to answer them.
As far as the original poster goes, you may note I thought the
question was a homework question. Nevertheless, I prefer to treat
new people by assuming they are genuinely curious (or at VERY
worst, frustrated) as opposed to hostile. It's actually the way I
try to live in all aspects of life and I've done well from it.
I'm a happy bird, at least.


I think sinister is another of Don Mellon's sock puppets.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Jan 4 '06 #41

P: n/a
David W. Fenton wrote:
Of course not. Access is a development platform that includes a
database engine, Jet.
I thought this was what I said, though?
Any questions about whether or not Access is an RDBMS are,
therefore, about Jet, not about the Access parts. Thus, the fact
that Access can be used as a front end to client/server database
engines is not an aspect of the database part of Access.
Fair enough, I think I understand where you're coming from... I tend to
think of Access in the development platform role against Oracle (my
major use of Access) and wanted to show him/her that depending on what
engine is used, it can be a seen as a client server arrangement versus a
file server.

Come to think of it, what the hell *do* my above comments have to do
with "a true rdbms"? I'm not sure, my wife tells me I talk too much
sometimes...
I think sinister is another of Don Mellon's sock puppets.


I don't think so. I really think it was someone trying to answer a
homework question or something perhaps from an Access unfriendly instructor?
--
Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/
^o<
/#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake
/^^ "What's UP, Dittoooooo?" - Ditto
Jan 4 '06 #42

P: n/a
Lyle Fairfield wrote:
And thanks to you for posting such a stimulating and intellectually
demanding topic that has been hashed and rehashed in this and other
groups no more than a thousand times.
When you are happy with your understanding of it I trust you will move
right on to:
"How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"
Hope this helps!


I know the answer to this one courtesy of Linus from the Peanuts strip:

Eight if they're skinny, four if they're fat.

So I guess the answer to the original question is:

It depends on the programmer!

James A. Fortune
CD********@FortuneJames.com

Jan 5 '06 #43

P: n/a
"David W. Fenton" <XX*******@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote
. . . It's like asking "how long is
a piece of string?"


'Bout 'leven.

:-)
Jan 10 '06 #44

This discussion thread is closed

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